Part XIII: Phoenix Coyotes - The Final Cut?

[Killion]

Yep, let us not forget Maple Leaf Gardens was built during the depression.

Precisely, portions of the costs for materials & labour paid in shares of MLG/Leafs because Smythe only had so much to play with & was maxed out financially. That of course was just one building, Sportsmans Park is basically a complete town, with golf courses, neighbourhoods, schools, the whole 9 yards. If I'm a hedge fund guy in the derivatives sector & contemplating a buy like the Coyotes & the creation of a CFD Im looking at that pretty favorably, recommending it to my clients, a big bank.

 

[peter sullivan]

^ and the banks will say....you want how much?...for what?.....in a collapsed real estate market where values have been plummeting for 3 years?

i can understand why someone would conclude that the only way it makes sense to buy the coyotes and keep them in glendale is because it is part of a larger plan, but i find it difficult to believe that even a predator would be able to do that in this economic climate....hasnt development of westgate itself slowed substantially?

 

[Killion]

^ and the banks will say....you want how much?...for what?.....in a collapsed real estate market where values have been plummeting for 3 years?

i can understand why someone would conclude that the only way it makes sense to buy the coyotes and keep them in glendale is because it is part of a larger plan, but i find it difficult to believe that even a predator would be able to do that in this economic climate....hasnt development of westgate itself slowed substantially?

Westgate certainly has, Ellmans only completed about a third of its projected size. As for the banks, the Bidwells' have substantial wealth & if additional investors are involved, including Hulsizer, rolling a portion of the taxes generated from the development into the CFD might be possible if not probable. The way it sits right now parking & ticket surcharges alone combined with Ellmans noticeable absence from the CFD = nasty case of the shorts. I dont know if this is even legal quite frankly, but it may be, and it also may be why this is taking so much time to close. Its as tricky as all get out, and remember too, Im just speculating. We dont know if Hulsizers involved in Sportsmans Park or not. I just think it likely.

 

[TheLegend]

You mean they made the front page when they were selling out every game? If anything that solidifies my theory that media coverage is directly related to fan interest.

They were hitting the front page before the sell outs. Team performance is what got them the attention from the media. That in itself helped drive fan interest. But if you want to stick to your assumption that it was tied to fan interest first because it "solidifies" your agenda then that's fine with me.

 

[RR]

...If you're making posts with substance to them that aren't self-serving to your own agenda or attempting to blame problems on some non-existent bias and not full of defensive sarcasm, people may be more apt to not dismiss what you're saying...

There was a post on the Coyotes board tonight in the Yotes-Habs gamethread from a regular on the BOH board that read, "It's starting to look like all of those extra points in the OT and shootout last year may have been an anomaly rather than what could be expected...this season is looking like a worst case scenario for them so far in terms of extra time..." Reading that post, then coming here and reading this one immediately after struck me as pretty funny. Maybe it's just me.

 

[MHX]

TSN article - Nothing new.

Coyotes optimistic potential new owner will end uncertainty.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=338677

 

[Fidel Astro]

They were hitting the front page before the sell outs. Team performance is what got them the attention from the media. That in itself helped drive fan interest.

Fair enough. Obviously a successful team = newsworthy story/something people want to read. Everyone understands this. I think it's the same even in traditional markets -- your team starts winning, you see a lot more space devoted to that team in the local paper.

However, a struggling team with a very real chance of being relocated is also a very newsworthy story. In fact, it's even more newsworthy than a winning team, because this particular story goes beyond just the sports page. There are economic repercussions to the local residents whether the team stays or goes. It's a front-page story, and it's not being given prominence. Why not?

I realize there's an election going on, so that's presumably (although based on the apparent apathy in the region, maybe not) taking over all of the headlines, but even so, the lack of media interest in the team is baffling.

 

[ATHF]

There was a post on the Coyotes board tonight in the Yotes-Habs gamethread from a regular on the BOH board that read, "It's starting to look like all of those extra points in the OT and shootout last year may have been an anomaly rather than what could be expected...this season is looking like a worst case scenario for them so far in terms of extra time..." Reading that post, then coming here and reading this one immediately after struck me as pretty funny. Maybe it's just me.

Yes, it was me that said that over there because I happened to catch the OT of the Carolina game and was watching the Montreal game last night in between the Kings/Wild and I was making an observation that the OT and shootout points that helped you guys out last year seem like they're a little harder to come by so far this year and that it could be a problem if they can't turn it around.

I don't see how that is self-serving at all considering that I was merely making a comment to the fanbase it would be best suited for and have posted in various GDT's so far through the season from a couple of the games in Europe to some Red Wing GDT's and even the odd random GDT of a game I happen to be watching. What did I say that was insulting to the Coyotes or their fans or disrespectful in any way, let alone with an agenda in mind? Please point out where the agenda was, because I certainly fail to see it.

If you think I was coming in there to try to stir something up or to suggest that your team stinks or needs to be moved or some other misguided notion, you're sorely mistaken. I was merely making an observation based on something I've noticed so far this season. Does that mean that because I post here and am not a Phoenix fan per se that I'm not allowed to contribute to the GDT if I happen to be watching the game?

 

[Killion]

I was merely making an observation based on something I've noticed so far this season.

I "get" your points. I've noticed over the first 5 games of the season that the Leafs' are looking mighty fine, serious contenders, that Roberto Luongo should be traded, Kovalchuk could be another Daigle waiting to happen....

Its' early days yet ATHF....

 

[ATHF]

I "get" your points. I've noticed over the first 5 games of the season that the Leafs' are looking mighty fine, serious contenders, that Roberto Luongo should be traded, Kovalchuk could be another Daigle waiting to happen....

Its' early days yet ATHF....

I absolutely realize that...I just don't like having an innocuous statement that I made on a different board brought over here and turned into something completely different than what it actually was...

The Coyotes of last year would likely have found a way to win those games....the Coyotes of this year, not so much so far this season. That's all there was to it, no more and no less..

 

[Scottrocks58*]

It's not just me that would be thinking that way judging from posts in the thread, and again you go back to the "everyone is against me" mentality that makes your opinions seem so disingenous. Attitudes like that when someone's opinion differs from yours or when someone calls you out on attempting to use pity as a debate tool are part of the reason why there is such vitriol for Coyote fans on the boards from certain posters.

If you're looking for pity because the market apparently can't sustain a hockey team with the fan support necessary to keep it from losing mass amounts of money for more than a decade, I would think you're looking in the wrong place.

If you're trying to suggest that you're being persecuted as a Coyote fan by the "big bad Canadian mafia" that supposedly has the run of the roost here on the boards, again, I think you're looking in the wrong place.

If you're making posts with substance to them that aren't self-serving to your own agenda or attempting to blame problems on some non-existent bias and not full of defensive sarcasm, people may be more apt to not dismiss what you're saying...

Perhaps instead of trying to use passive-aggressive remarks about a perceived bias to try to change opinions of people on a message board, it would be more useful to try to change the opinions of the people you referred to earlier in regards to not attending Coyote games. At least if you're putting your energy into that, there may be more than 8,000 per for the rest of the season...

Talk about being defensive....relax. Why so serious, son?

 

[Scottrocks58*]

I absolutely realize that...I just don't like having an innocuous statement that I made on a different board brought over here and turned into something completely different than what it actually was...

The Coyotes of last year would likely have found a way to win those games....the Coyotes of this year, not so much so far this season. That's all there was to it, no more and no less..

I'm sure that the Coyotes fans who post on the game thread appreciate your support....

 

[ATHF]

I'm sure that the Coyotes fans who post on the game thread appreciate your support....

Not so much being serious but tiring of the attitude of entitlement that I've seen from some Coyote fans that they seem to think that not only should everyone just accept their mediocre attendance and lukewarm market support overall, but should excuse it as well and pretend that it's not an issue.

As for the posting about last night's game, I see it as no different than the other posts I've made in other GDT's or threads about other teams in the main board...I like hockey and I like talking about hockey, so I do so in the appropriate forum. No one seemed terribly upset by my statement and frankly probably barely realized it was made. The "us vs. them" attitude is tiresome and I'm done buying into it..

Moving on to talk about actual issues, did anyone else notice that the latest TSN article has gone a step further and stated that Hulsizer has made an offer of 170 million for the team, yet no such offer has been made? I understand that these outlets have to rewrite certain passages or phrases to avoid charges of plagiarism, but I don't necessarily agree with the rewrites choosing to add information that doesn't exist or hasn't happened...

 

[Killion]

On a lighter note, I sent an email to the NHL with a few suggestions.

1) Reduce IT costs' in Phoenix by seeing if you couldnt work out a deal with Blackberry.

2) Call the Cyborg Manufacturing plant that built Shane Doan, order more units, using cheaper parts, all signed to entry level contracts with unattainable performance bonuses.

3) Determine which players with the Habs, Canucks or Flames were responsible for their team winning a playoff round, causing riots/damage to the streets, & immediately trade them to Phoenix.

Alternatively, sneak Jovo & few other Coyotes into the BOG's meeting coming up in December, they steal their lunch money, buy the team themselves with the proceeds. More than enough left over to buy ham sandwiches' on their flights back to Sky Harbor, absorb any losses over the next few years.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Candidate: Stop giving Glendale's money to pro teams

A wise candidate for Glendale council? Here's his blog:

The City of Glendale is in debt over $500 million in borrowing just for the Sports District. That means each Glendale resident currently owes approximately $3, 230. Annual payments on this debt are roughly $31 million, some of which is “borrowed moneyâ€.

A local report (Glendale is saddled with $500 million in Sports-District Debt; October 10, 2010) stated, “The city used borrowed money for the $13 million ballpark payment. Those reserve funds will run out in two years. If the gap between revenue and sports debt grows in the coming years, financial experts say, Glendale will have to cut city services, raise taxes or issue more bonds to pay the original debt.â€

According to the report, the leaders of our City have yet to come up with back-up plans. We must stop giving Glendale's money to professional sports teams.

The future focus must be providing incentives for small business and entrepreneurs, job creation, responsible spending...

On November 2 voters will choose whether they want more of the same or if the City should move in a different direction. Fresh ideas, experience and strong leadership are necessary to move our great City in a new direction.

Anthony Kern is a candidate for Glendale City Council, Barrel District.

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/WestValleyVoices/102681

GHOST

 

[Fidel Astro]

A wise candidate for Glendale council?
GHOST

Sounds wise to me.

 

[Killion]

Sounds wise to me.

OK, so how do they turn back the clock now?. Their well down the road to basing their master plans' on a sports/entertainment district, up to their necks in fact. Platitudes are just great, sound wonderful, talk is cheap. Is it wise to just blow it all up whereby the harm in doing so supercedes' that of the team leaving?. Or alternatively, is it better to just cut your losses, let it go?. The constituents have some hard choices to make.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

A thought on what Glendale should do.

The mayor has come out and stated something to the effect that the building of the arena really wasn't about the hockey, but was more about Westgate and bringing people from around the Phoenix metro to Glendale to spend money, provide sale tax revenue and promote economic development.

And Scruggs says the city has no Plan B should the Coyotes leave! (And you wonder why public officials should not be so deeply involved in private business activities using tax payers money).

Why doesn't Glendale try to replace the 40 odd hockey nights with 12,000 fans with something else? 40 x 10,000 = 400,000 visitors per year. Let's say it's at least 1/2 a million. Why not try to get more concerts and other events? Replace the NHL team with a minor pro team for hockey, arena football, lacross, etc. Hold more rodeos, tractor pulls, religious conventions or whatever is in vogue? Have Circus de Soleil or Stars on Ice or whatever do a week Christmas celebration show of some sort and advertise it each year as the thing to do for families in the Phoenix area. Above all hire a professional arena management firm like AEG to drum up business and develop a different strategy to replace the hockey visitors. Also, keep in mind of the 1/2 million or so hockey visitors per year, only a relatively small amount of them likely hang around before or after the games to spend significant money in or around Westgate.

GHOST

 

[Confucius]

A thought on what Glendale should do.
GHOST

Since so many snowbirds live in the Phoenix area and they showup to cheer their team. Why doesn't Bettman steal an Idea from Ice Edge? Get the Sabres, Wings, Rangers, Leafs, Hawks, Pens, Bruins to play each other in Glendale a couple of times a year. The arena will sellout, when the snowbird Wing fans squareoff against the snowbird Leaf fans. No need for the Yotes, and the league is growing the game in a southern location.

 

[Killion]

And Scruggs says the city has no Plan B should the Coyotes leave! (And you wonder why public officials should not be so deeply involved in private business activities using tax payers money). Why doesn't Glendale try to replace the 40 odd hockey nights with 12,000 fans with something else? 40 x 10,000 = 400,000 visitors per year. Let's say it's at least 1/2 a million. Why not try to get more concerts and other events? Replace the NHL team with a minor pro team for hockey, arena football, lacrosse, etc. Hold more rodeos, tractor pulls, religious conventions or whatever is in vogue?GHOST

As you'll re-call, that was part of Balsillies' argument. Had it all scoped out with projections & a cheque to ease the transition. They knew Moyes was losing it a good 10mnths prior to the BK, yet rather than coming clean in trying to work out a CFD or whatever with Glendale, & according to reports Beasley was simply asking for minimal paperwork in order to proceed, Jerry Moyes opted for Rodier's exit strategy. The league left with no choice but to fight to protect its rights to determine location after Reinsdorf left the field when his offer was aired, Baum agreeing in order to avoid lengthy appeals & here we are, a real cluster ****. This is it IMO. If Hulsizer is unable to close, its over, Scruggs' & company not having to come up with a "Plan B" because they'll be booted from office in disgrace.

 

[Mike in MN]

Just to play Devil's advocate...

From what I've heard, the Sprint Center in KC is profitable even without a pro team anchor tenant. SO, it can be done.

On the other hand, they are the only modern arena in their metro area - no competition from a second building to drive down prices.

 

[RR]

Yes, it was me that said that over there because I happened to catch the OT of the Carolina game and was watching the Montreal game last night in between the Kings/Wild and I was making an observation that the OT and shootout points that helped you guys out last year seem like they're a little harder to come by so far this year and that it could be a problem if they can't turn it around.

I don't see how that is self-serving at all considering that I was merely making a comment to the fanbase it would be best suited for and have posted in various GDT's so far through the season from a couple of the games in Europe to some Red Wing GDT's and even the odd random GDT of a game I happen to be watching. What did I say that was insulting to the Coyotes or their fans or disrespectful in any way, let alone with an agenda in mind? Please point out where the agenda was, because I certainly fail to see it.

If you think I was coming in there to try to stir something up or to suggest that your team stinks or needs to be moved or some other misguided notion, you're sorely mistaken. I was merely making an observation based on something I've noticed so far this season. Does that mean that because I post here and am not a Phoenix fan per se that I'm not allowed to contribute to the GDT if I happen to be watching the game?

If I misinterpreted, "this season is looking like a worst case scenario for them so far in terms of extra time..." as a backhanded reference to relocation, I apologize. Coming from a BOH proponent of the Coyotes failing and being relocated, I thought while a clever double entendre, it was uncalled for.

Again, if I misinterpreted, I'm sorry.

 

[ATHF]

If I misinterpreted, "this season is looking like a worst case scenario for them so far in terms of extra time..." as a backhanded reference to relocation, I apologize. Coming from a BOH proponent of the Coyotes failing and being relocated, I thought while a clever double entendre, it was uncalled for.

Again, if I misinterpreted, I'm sorry.

No worries..

I'm not a cheerleader for the Coyotes to fail, I just think that if people aren't going to support them and the team is losing a ton of money that they should be moved. I'm a huge Red Wing fan and God forbid if they were in the situation of losing money for a decade and a half and were drawing flies I would be suggesting that they might need to find a different market too. I would love to see a team in Winnipeg and if it's at the expense of Phoenix then so be it, but I'm not actively cheering for them to fail because I don't see a need to put that much effort into something I have no control over...

 

[Killion]

I'm a huge Red Wing fan and God forbid if they were in the situation of losing money for a decade and a half and were drawing flies I would be suggesting that they might need to find a different market too. I would love to see a team in Winnipeg

As such, you should be able to empathize. The "Dead Wings" or "Dead Things" ring any Division Bells'?. Your team was inches from being nothing but a memory, a footnote in the pantheon of once successful NHL franchises' circa 1982 had Mike Illitch not stepped in to save the day.

 

[RR]

LeBlanc and Jones in Ottawa tonight, talking with Coyotes FSAZ reporter Todd Walsh about Hulsizer, where deal is:

http://filesocial.eu.s3.amazonaws.com/my2yu0l/8be7b173912f1d9569b1348fab5a44d88b31fb5a/iceedgefull.mp3?AWSAccessKeyId=118BCPR9JK5VVMH7NX82&Expires=1288145116&Signature=NYrsupK%2FwrTVyi2PJRjMRYqwlM8%3D