Part XIII: Phoenix Coyotes - The Final Cut?

[dkehler]

What I can't fathom is that there seems to be little to any local outrage that so much Glendale taxpayer money has been "wasted" whether the Coyotes stay or go. And don't tell me that Americans in general are not greatly concerned about where their tax dollars go. I have to believe that it's because people are generally unaware of what's going on.

 

[Whileee]

If they leave, they leave. With Hulsizer on board,they will probably stay.

I agree. With Hulsizer on board things look much better, in all respects (present and future).

My concern is with the City of Glendale and whether they will be able to come through and deliver politically and financially. That is where I think folks who are interested should cast their gaze, including the media. It seems very likely that a whole bunch of eggs have been placed in the CFD basket, since Glendale's hands are tied on subsidies. If the CFD doesn't fly, there is nothing much that Hulsizer can do. So wouldn't someone want to check in with the Westgate folks to see how that issue might shake out? So far, I think we have an indication that Reinsdorf's MOU was a "bridge too far", but there really hasn't been any meaningful discussion since then about scenarios for the CFD.

Much has been made about the problems with the $25 million escrow and whether the City of Glendale will really be inclined to cover the losses this year, or whether they will need to try to push that onto Hulsizer's plate. Wouldn't a media call to one of the city councilors running for re-election offer some insights into that?

 

[peter sullivan]

it is totally logical that the 4 million non glendale residents of the phoenix CMA dont caqre about this story. It is obvious that the fate of the team doesnt interest anyone and the money being used to save them and the businesses it will affect are not their problem.

i am astonished by the fact that the 250k residents of glendale also appear to be oblivious to the situation....i am sure they care about the coyotes no more than anyyone else in the area but the fact that their government is potentially selling them down the river appears to have no local interest......i cant imagine another jurastiction in the world like that.

the glendale weekly paper hasnt published an article about it in 6 months.

http://www.glendalestar.com/

 

[Scottrocks58*]

Speculation as to why there is no great political outrage over the Coyotes in Glendale is like grinding your teeth on wood. You might get a mouthful of splinters, but at least you tired out your jaw muscles.

 

[Killion]

If the CFD doesn't fly, there is nothing much that Hulsizer can do. So far, I think we have an indication that Reinsdorf's MOU was a "bridge too far", but there really hasn't been any meaningful discussion since then about scenarios for the CFD.

I dont think Hulsizers' going to make the same mistakes Whileee. What I find very interesting is that he's made his fortune in the derivatives & hedge fund sector. An entire industry has formed up around financial/tax arrear foreclosures in the housing & commercial real estate market's, these properties being snapped up on the qt by newly formed subsidiaries of the large banks, expedited by hedge fund managers. Properties worth more unoccupied than occupied. I think theirs much more to this story with respect to the scope of the CFD, reaching beyond just Westgate alone. Also, consider the Bidwells plans for a 71 acre "Sportsmans Park" adjacent to Westgate. Could Hulsizer be investing in that as well, part of a grander plan?.

Quantative Derivitives backed by the major banks with the Federal Reserve printing it by the buckets. Diabolical.

 

[Whileee]

Speculation as to why there is no great political outrage over the Coyotes in Glendale is like grinding your teeth on wood. You might get a mouthful of splinters, but at least you tired out your jaw muscles.

Lack of outrage isn't all that surprising to me. There's nothing much to be outraged about, really, since nothing has happened and no plans are public.

Lack of curiosity by Glendale media and residents; that's a bit more puzzling.

 

[TheLegend]

There's little media interest cause there's little fan interest. A Coyotes cover story isn't gonna sell a paper cause virtually nobody cares.

Actually... the amount of coverage of the Yotes in the Arizone Republic has increased this year over last. There are now two reporters covering the team's on-ice performance full time this year instead of one plus the occasional piece last year.

They hit the main front page at playoff time, and started seeing more front page of the sports section during the latter part of the year. So your theory that the coverage is based solely on fan interest is pure bunk.

 

[Whileee]

I dont think Hulsizers' going to make the same mistakes Whileee. What I find very interesting is that he's made his fortune in the derivatives & hedge fund sector. An entire industry has formed up around financial/tax arrear foreclosures in the housing & commercial real estate market's, these properties being snapped up on the qt by newly formed subsidiaries of the large banks, expedited by hedge fund managers. Properties worth more unoccupied than occupied. I think theirs much more to this story with respect to the scope of the CFD, reaching beyond just Westgate alone.

You are one to heighten the suspense, aren't you Killion?

No wonder the CoG officials are taking so long. Their heads are spinning as they look at each other with quizzical faces, like undergrads who just realized that they signed up for advanced calculus when they thought the course was "consumer math".

 

[Fidel Astro]

I don't know. Was the lack of interest in baseball in Montreal due to cultural differences? Who can say. The Expos had to leave. People are trying to keep the Coyotes in place to give it another go. We shall see.

I have no idea. I have no interest in baseball and never have. I know Montreal had a team, then the team moved or folded ...or something. It doesn't exist anymore, for whatever reason. I get the feeling a lot of people in Arizona follow hockey about as closely as I follow baseball, though.

Hockey doesn't inflame the passions in the US the way football and baseball can. Another poster called hockey a fringe sport in the southern US and that is indeed correct. It was a fringe sport in LA until Gretzky came. This all goes back to whether the NHL should sow the seeds and nurture interest in the southern markets or bag it, a topic which, IMO has been covered ad nauseum.

Yes, it has been covered ad nauseum. You're right. I guess the reason it comes up time and again is because people in those southern cities will frequently admit that hockey is a fringe sport in their region, or that there's a lack of interest, or that no one really cares about the team ...and then still try to argue in favour of keeping the team in its current (southern) location. Comments like that are incredibly frustrating to read.

 

[Killion]

You are one to heighten the suspense, aren't you Killion?

Yepp. Lets get Jiggy.

 

[Confucius]

I have no idea. I have no interest in baseball and never have. I know Montreal had a team, then the team moved or folded ...or something. It doesn't exist anymore, for whatever reason. I get the feeling a lot of people in Arizona follow hockey about as closely as I follow baseball, though.
.

Same here when the blue jays were good I followed them religiously as did alot of people. When they started falling off into mediocrity I couldn't care less. This is the truth, I might be able to name 4 players and I know thet're getting a new manager today, the guy from Boston, Frigosi?

 

[ATHF]

If they leave, they leave. With Hulsizer on board,they will probably stay. As for as not putting "full stock" in what I post, I am devastated. Truly inconsolate.

It's not just me that would be thinking that way judging from posts in the thread, and again you go back to the "everyone is against me" mentality that makes your opinions seem so disingenous. Attitudes like that when someone's opinion differs from yours or when someone calls you out on attempting to use pity as a debate tool are part of the reason why there is such vitriol for Coyote fans on the boards from certain posters.

If you're looking for pity because the market apparently can't sustain a hockey team with the fan support necessary to keep it from losing mass amounts of money for more than a decade, I would think you're looking in the wrong place.

If you're trying to suggest that you're being persecuted as a Coyote fan by the "big bad Canadian mafia" that supposedly has the run of the roost here on the boards, again, I think you're looking in the wrong place.

If you're making posts with substance to them that aren't self-serving to your own agenda or attempting to blame problems on some non-existent bias and not full of defensive sarcasm, people may be more apt to not dismiss what you're saying...

Perhaps instead of trying to use passive-aggressive remarks about a perceived bias to try to change opinions of people on a message board, it would be more useful to try to change the opinions of the people you referred to earlier in regards to not attending Coyote games. At least if you're putting your energy into that, there may be more than 8,000 per for the rest of the season...

 

[Niagara67]

With all the silence from the major players involved, I want to think that there is a lot of high-paced back door negotiations going on, but for some reason I can't get the image out of my head of Bettman sitting at his desk, with his feet up, reading a Peter Puck comic book and chuckling. And Daly in his office testing out NHL 2012 on a Wii with Brendan Shanahan.

The last boughts of silence revealed that not only was nothing accomplished, but the players were barely even working towards accomplishing anything. Maybe it's finally different this time?

 

[TheLegend]

You are one to heighten the suspense, aren't you Killion?

No wonder the CoG officials are taking so long. Their heads are spinning as they look at each other with quizzical faces, like undergrads who just realized that they signed up for advanced calculus when they thought the course was "consumer math".

Whileee...... Rewriting a lease that was originally 120 pages long isn't something you can just whip out on Microsoft Word overnight.

 

[Scottrocks58*]

I have no idea. I have no interest in baseball and never have. I know Montreal had a team, then the team moved or folded ...or something. It doesn't exist anymore, for whatever reason. I get the feeling a lot of people in Arizona follow hockey about as closely as I follow baseball, though.



Yes, it has been covered ad nauseum. You're right. I guess the reason it comes up time and again is because people in those southern cities will frequently admit that hockey is a fringe sport in their region, or that there's a lack of interest, or that no one really cares about the team ...and then still try to argue in favour of keeping the team in its current (southern) location. Comments like that are incredibly frustrating to read.

I recall a group of very upset Expo fans up there who wanted the team to stay. It is unreasonable to expect passionate fans, however small their number, to just let go and not try to keep their team.

 

[cheswick]

Actually... the amount of coverage of the Yotes in the Arizone Republic has increased this year over last. There are now two reporters covering the team's on-ice performance full time this year instead of one plus the occasional piece last year.

They hit the main front page at playoff time, and started seeing more front page of the sports section during the latter part of the year. So your theory that the coverage is based solely on fan interest is pure bunk.

You mean they made the front page when they were selling out every game? If anything that solidifies my theory that media coverage is directly related to fan interest.

 

[Fidel Astro]

I recall a group of very upset Expo fans up there who wanted the team to stay. It is unreasonable to expect passionate fans, however small their number, to just let go and not try to keep their team.

Of course. Where, then, are the passionate Coyotes fans trying to keep their team? On the Internet? This is part of the reason people make the Winnipeg comparison, with the massive public rallies and kids donating money from their piggy banks, etc. etc.

Nothing even remotely similar has happened in Phoenix. While I agree a small rally of, say, a few hundred fans in Phoenix probably would get unfavourably compared to Winnipeg's tens of thousands, at least it would be a sign of life. I think any sign that the Coyotes fans are fighting to keep their team would calm down a lot of the anti-Phoenix talk both on forums like this one and in the media, but so far, there has been nothing. People aren't even showing up to the games.

While I'm sure there are many others like you who are passionate about the team, those of us on the outside aren't seeing any evidence that they exist, which leads us to believe the team is unappreciated in its current location and should be moved.

It's pretty straightforward: the Phoenix fans don't show any support in public, so everyone else assumes there are no Phoenix fans, and calls for the team to be moved.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

closing in on the max number of pages again!!!

I really just wish they would make a decision one way or the other. It is not the suspense, it is the complete normalcy of how government operates. Instead of CoG building the arena, they should have just loaned the money to the Yotes and when they didn't pay, foreclose.

 

[Confucius]

Of course. Where, then, are the passionate Coyotes fans trying to keep their team? On the Internet? This is part of the reason people make the Winnipeg comparison, with the massive public rallies and kids donating money from their piggy banks, etc. etc.

Nothing even remotely similar has happened in Phoenix. While I agree a small rally of, say, a few hundred fans in Phoenix probably would get unfavourably compared to Winnipeg's tens of thousands, at least it would be a sign of life. I think any sign that the Coyotes fans are fighting to keep their team would calm down a lot of the anti-Phoenix talk both on forums like this one and in the media, but so far, there has been nothing. People aren't even showing up to the games.

While I'm sure there are many others like you who are passionate about the team, those of us on the outside aren't seeing any evidence that they exist, which leads us to believe the team is unappreciated in its current location and should be moved.

It's pretty straightforward: the Phoenix fans don't show any support in public, so everyone else assumes there are no Phoenix fans, and calls for the team to be moved.

Let us not forget the 50 or was it 60 thousand Quebec city recently had to bring the Nordique's back.

 

[peter sullivan]

Yepp. Lets get Jiggy.

yeah....coyotes fans should be ecstatic if that becomes the reality...yet another owner who doesnt give a crap about the hockey team and only uses it as part of a larger real estate play.

great time to be trying a major real estate development in phoenix....good luck with that.

 

[Killion]

yeah....coyotes fans should be ecstatic if that becomes the reality...yet another owner who doesnt give a crap about the hockey team and only uses it as part of a larger real estate play. great time to be trying a major real estate development in phoenix....good luck with that.

Like in about 25 other NHL markets peter?. Hulsizer is a hockey guy as well as you know. The Bidwells' Sportsmans Park adjacent to Westgate is a massive 71 acre development & will dramatically alter & improve the face of both Westgate & Glendale. Glendale Council has been preoccupied with it for some time & I cant help but think that any prospective buyer of the Coyotes would want into that little dealeo' as it could well supply much in tax related revenues going into the CFD. Timing is actually pretty good. Lots of unemployed construction firms out their. Beauty eh?...

 

[Confucius]

Like in about 25 other NHL markets peter?.

The Bidwells' Sportsmans Park adjacent to Westgate is a massive 71 acre development & will dramatically alter & improve the face of both Westgate & Glendale. Glendale Council has been preoccupied with it for some time & I cant help but think that any prospective buyer of the Coyotes would want into that little dealeo' as it could well supply much in tax related revenues going into the CFD. Timing is actually pretty good. Lots of unemployed construction firms out their. Beauty huh?...

Yep, let us not forget Maple Leaf Gardens was built during the depression.

 

[Pegger5]

Like in about 25 other NHL markets peter?. Hulsizer is a hockey guy as well as you know. The Bidwells' Sportsmans Park adjacent to Westgate is a massive 71 acre development & will dramatically alter & improve the face of both Westgate & Glendale. Glendale Council has been preoccupied with it for some time & I cant help but think that any prospective buyer of the Coyotes would want into that little dealeo' as it could well supply much in tax related revenues going into the CFD. Timing is actually pretty good. Lots of unemployed construction firms out their. Beauty eh?...

Really, the news release said this project would take 20-40 years. I.e, 20 years before it may even start and for sure not until the economy turns around whenever that will be in Glendale

 

[RR]

I dont think Hulsizers' going to make the same mistakes Whileee. What I find very interesting is that he's made his fortune in the derivatives & hedge fund sector. An entire industry has formed up around financial/tax arrear foreclosures in the housing & commercial real estate market's, these properties being snapped up on the qt by newly formed subsidiaries of the large banks, expedited by hedge fund managers. Properties worth more unoccupied than occupied. I think theirs much more to this story with respect to the scope of the CFD, reaching beyond just Westgate alone. Also, consider the Bidwells plans for a 71 acre "Sportsmans Park" adjacent to Westgate. Could Hulsizer be investing in that as well, part of a grander plan?.

Quantative Derivitives backed by the major banks with the Federal Reserve printing it by the buckets. Diabolical.

You make a great point. It's like a throwback to the 40s and 50s when folks gobbled up cheap land on the outskirts and sat on it for years, betting on growth catching up to it and making them a fortune. And for most it did, and then some. Now you have corporations doing the same thing here and all over the US. The difference is the development of that land has already occurred, so it won't take decades for them to flip that property for huge gains.

People can continue to claim Glendale is a bad location. Perhaps today it is. But in 2002 it was prime real estate, residential and commercial growth was moving in that direction, and had the economic and housing crash not hit Jobing and UOP would be sitting in the middle of a flourishing, densely populated suburban area of more than 2 million people. Instead it's about 1.5 million, many now without jobs who have also lost their homes. Same can be said for Phoenix, Scottsdale, Tempe, Chandler, Mesa, and Gilbert.

Hindsight is always 20-20, but bottom line is no matter where the Coyotes played since 2003, the attendance issue was always going to be a problem because of the mismanagement and the poor on-ice product. Then pile the economy on top of that.

 

[peter sullivan]

Like in about 25 other NHL markets peter?. Hulsizer is a hockey guy as well as you know. The Bidwells' Sportsmans Park adjacent to Westgate is a massive 71 acre development & will dramatically alter & improve the face of both Westgate & Glendale. Glendale Council has been preoccupied with it for some time & I cant help but think that any prospective buyer of the Coyotes would want into that little dealeo' as it could well supply much in tax related revenues going into the CFD. Timing is actually pretty good. Lots of unemployed construction firms out their. Beauty eh?...

hey Doc Brown, are we in 1999 again?

yes...exactly like the other 25 american cities....privately funded mega projects are not exactly proliferating across the united states at this point...if only it were as simple as cheap labour.