P.K Subban and Drew Doughty league worst turnover ratio

[Vesa Awesaka]

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/stats/player-turnover-plus-minus/2014/

Both are minus 50 with the next player being minus 38. Does this mean anything at all? lol Relevant or irrelevant?

Subban ranks 8th worst in give away take away ratio per 60 of all players in the league.


As been mentioned NHL real time stats trackers can be bad but are they this bad that theyd give two of the best players in the league such a disadvantage? You'd think the stat trackers might even be biased in favor of the superstars.


Lets try not to make this a karlsson thread.

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[CH25]

Means nothing because they have the puck way more than most players

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Without context it doesn't mean much. In the case of these guys it's probably due to the fact that a) they have the puck a lot, b) they play a lot of minutes, and c) they're offensively minded, which means more passes that might get cut off.

They're also both very physical players, and probably don't get credited with a takeaway when they separate someone via bodycheck.

 

[McDNicks17]

Takeaway and giveaway numbers always seem pretty iffy.

For example, I find it very hard to believe Doughty has only taken the puck from an opponent 4 times this season.

 

[Micklebot]

Means nothing because they have the puck way more than most players

While this explains high turnovers, it says nothing about takeaways.

More importantly though, the NHL's real time stats tracking is horrendously inconsistent and subject to rink bias.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

Giveaway/Takeaway stats between buildings are not consistent at all. I'd wager a bet that Doughty has had more than the 4 takeaways he's been credited with.

 

[luthar]

No explanation to OP stats but should the breakout system be relevant here since if a player usually attempts long passes, there is more chances to be intercepted?

After looking at Mtl (2013-2014), Ds are all < 0 with Markov and Subban (top pairing) being the worst...

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Means nothing because they have the puck way more than most players

karlsson, suter, weber, josi, brodie and gio all play more minutes with karlsson probably getting the puck more then anyone but he has less then half the turnovers/takeaway of subban per 60.

 

[Aceonfire*]

Puck touches are completely ignored here.

Good players have the puck more often.

And takeaways/giveaways are like hits in some arenas. They track them differently.

 

[Micklebot]

Giveaway/Takeaway stats between buildings are not consistent at all. I'd wager a bet that Doughty has had more than the 4 takeaways he's been credited with.

Well, you could start by looking at only away numbers to get a less biased view, but yeah, the RTSS stats aren't reliable.

 

[Jyrki]

Worthless statistic. Subban and Doughty generally lead their respective offenses out of the zone, and D-men aren't going to generate as many takeaways in the statistical sense as forwards.

Turnovers would only mean something if touches + zone entries were diligently recorded. Even if you were to contrast vs possession, it would still bias heavily vs players who are expected to make the transition plays.

 

[CanadienShark]

Doesn't really mean anything due to the ambiguity of the call, and when these are 2 of the top 5 d-men in the world, who cares?

 

[Mrb1p]

Just proves that Doughty and Subban both play a similar style of hockey.

I'm also quite sure you can add the hits stats of every player to the takeaway column, since they don't count hits as takeaways but hits do takeaway the puck from the opponent.

 

[GTA]

karlsson, suter, weber, josi, brodie and gio all play more minutes with karlsson probably getting the puck more then anyone but he has less then half the turnovers/takeaway of subban per 60.

Aaaand there it is. Knew what this thread was really about when I saw the OP. Keep the hate coming bud.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Aaaand there it is. Knew what this thread was really about when I saw the OP. Keep the hate coming bud.

I didnt make this thread with karlsson in mind. I honestly was just shocked by Doughty's number. I expected Subban to be around karlsson but not worst in the league or 8th worst per 60. What i said was what i believe to be true people said subban plays with the puck a ton well we know karlsson plays with it more and would seemingly be more adept at forcing turnover.

 

[eklunds source]

As previously mentioned... Between rink bias (the NHL is horrendous at counting "real time" stats like hits and giveaways -- they can't even find the faceoff dots) and the fact that players who have the puck more often tend to have more giveaways... Not useful information.

 

[Canadiens Ghost]

Aaaand there it is. Knew what this thread was really about when I saw the OP. Keep the hate coming bud.

That was pretty obvious from the start knowing his posting history.

Whats this say about karlsson who probably plays with the puck on his stick more then anyone yet he has less then half the turnover give away plus minus of subban per 60?

Hilariously useless stat in this case if taken alone.

Karlsson has 184 shots on goal to Subban's 94. Since you don't get credited with a turnover after a shot on goal even if the other teams get the puck back, this just means Karlsson has a lot less chance of "looking bad" in this department. When you consider Karlsson has double the shots Subban has but with just about as many turnovers, that actually doesn't look very good for EK. Even Doughty only has 136 shots on goal.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

Why did I know Karlsson would be used as a comparison lol


I can't speak for the Kings, but for the Habs, Therrien has the system so all of our forwards are up at center ice while our defensemen have possession in the zone, leading to long breakout passes that are either iced or intercepted. Still, I wouldn't put too much into these numbers at all. Subban's done way more good than harm for the Habs this season.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

That was pretty obvious from the start knowing his posting history.




Hilariously useless stat in this case if taken alone.

Karlsson has 184 shots on goal to Subban's 94. Since you don't get credited with a turnover after a shot on goal even if the other teams get the puck back, this just means Karlsson has a lot less chance of "looking bad" in this department. When you consider Karlsson has double the shots Subban has but with just about as many turnovers, that actually doesn't look very good for EK. Even Doughty only has 136 shots on goal.

Interesting. So you're saying karlsson shoots the puck at the opposing goalie so he doesnt turnover the puck? Subban doesnt do this? or least doesnt do it as often as karl? Karlsson as the same giveaway amount as subban. It just would appear Karlsson is better at taking the puck away

 

[Anton Babchuk]

Giveaways and takeaways are absolutely horrendously tracked. Just look at the home/road splits for a lot of teams. Are we supposed to believe that Calgary has 343 takeaways at home, but just 92 on the road? Or that San Jose has 425 giveaways at home, but 144 on the road? It's a complete joke that the stats are even allowed to be published given the rink bias.

I remember a few years back when Montreal had like their entire D in the top 30 of giveaways at one point. Of course, that's because they were massively over counting giveaways at home.

EDIT: Looked it up. Hamrlik was 2nd, Spacek 3rd, Gill 5th, and Gorges 34th in the league in giveaways in a single season. Montreal was credited with 618 giveaways at home and 292 on the road that season.

 

[TT1]

and Subbans advanced stats are 100x better than Karlsson's, point?

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

and Subbans advanced stats are 100x better than Karlsson's, point?

Care to show some of these stats?

 

[redcard]

karlsson, suter, weber, josi, brodie and gio all play more minutes with karlsson probably getting the puck more then anyone but he has less then half the turnovers/takeaway of subban per 60.

Possessing the puck more only pertains to give aways.

How much the Senators rely on Karlsson to skate the puck up the ice has absolutely nothing to do with takeaways. Karlsson is 2nd in the league in Turnovers, so using the "he has the puck more but has less then half the turnovers/takeway ratio" to show he's more reliable with the puck makes no sense.

 

[Canadiens Ghost]

Interesting. So you're saying karlsson shoots the puck at the opposing goalie so he doesnt turnover the puck?

Never said such a thing. I'm pretty sure Karlsson doesn't give a rat's arse about his shots on net vs turnover stats.

What I'm saying is their stats will be differentiated in some areas because of their play styles therefore some stats are pretty useless if you want to compare 2 players.
No stats will ever beat the eye test.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Surprised it isn't Thornton with all the passes he attempts.