Ovechkin vs Malkin: 2010/2011 - Present

[BackToTheBasics]

Who do you think has been the better player for the past 10 seasons? Some quick info:

	Ovechkin	Malkin
Goals	437	273
Assists	312	422
Points	749	695
GPG	0.58	0.46
PPG	0.99	1.16
Goal placement	1st	12th
Point placement	3rd	6th
GPG placement	1st	5th
PPG placement	10th	3rd
Top 5 in Points	2	2
Top 5 in PPG	1	6
Top 10 in Points	4	2
Top 10 in PPG	4	7
Top 5 in Goals	8	2
Top 10 in Goals	8	2
Hart Trophies	1	1
Top 3 in Hart Trophy Race	2	1
Top 5 in Hart Trophy Race	2	1
Top 10 in Hart Trophy Race	5	2
Art Ross Trophies	0	1
Rocket Richard Trophies	7	0
Conn Smythes	1	0

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

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[bambamcam4ever]

Malkin has been the better player, but has also been constantly injured.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

It's always been OV.

 

[Regal]

I think Malkin has been the better player overall per game but it's close enough that you can't ignore the health aspect. Also, Malkin doesn't have a Conn Smythe in this period.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

When healthy Malkin has been better. 1.16 vs .99 ppg is not a small margin. Ovechkin is a better goal scorer, Malkin is a better overall player.

This season for example, Ovechkin may have won the rocket but Malkin had 74 points in 55 games. Ovechkin 67 points in 68 games.

 

[jetsforever]

Because of injuries, I think it's Ovechkin.

 

[eli4spetterss0n]

Poll asks for better player so Malkin gets my vote. That being said, if the poll asked "Who do you take for your franchise 2011 - present?" my answer would be Ovi.

 

[Dekes For Days]

ES P/60

Malkin: 2.83
Ovechkin: 2.35

ES G/60

Ovechkin: 1.33
Malkin: 1.20

PP P/60

Malkin: 6.54
Ovechkin: 5.07

PP G/60

Ovechkin: 3.13
Malkin: 2.24

Ovechkin is the better goalscorer. Malkin has pretty clearly been the better player.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Malkin has been the better player, but has also been constantly injured.

Ovechkin has been injured too, it's just that he plays through it.

 

[roflstomper]

The one who isn't made of glass and actually participates in the games.

 

[al secord]

I chose Ovechkin, but injuries swayed my decision.

 

[Midnight Judges]

ES P/60

Malkin: 2.83
Ovechkin: 2.35

ES G/60

Ovechkin: 1.33
Malkin: 1.20

PP P/60

Malkin: 6.54
Ovechkin: 5.07

PP G/60

Ovechkin: 3.13
Malkin: 2.24

Ovechkin is the better goalscorer. Malkin has pretty clearly been the better player.

Per 60 stats often result in nutty conclusions. This is because people wrongly assume more minutes would result in more points in a linear fashion. But it doesn't work that way, especially on the powerplay.

In this case Ovechkin plays more powerplay minutes than Malkin, including with the Capitals PP2, so more of Ovie's minutes are going to be spent on that reset when there is a clear against PP1 and there is a line change. Nevermind that Ovechkin isn't playing with Crosby. Ovechkin is also used as a trigger man much more than a passer, although when he does pass the puck he's excellent at it. Ovechkin's role reduces his points per 60 because he generally isn't being asked to make the routine perimeter passes than any AHL caliber player can make. And when he does pass he often ends up scoring the goal anyway which arbitrarily wipes away what would have been a secondary assist.

Ovechkin's deployment opens up other players on the Capitals to score because opposing teams often dedicate a defender to Ovie thus giving the rest of the team a 4 on 3. No other player in the world gets this kind of attention from defenses because Ovie is the greatest goal scorer of all time and this makes him a unique weapon. As great as Malkin is, he doesn't garner anywhere near this kind of attention from defenses on the PP. The result is that the Capitals have the most effective powerplay in the NHL over the 10 year span mentioned in the OP, and it's primarily because of Ovechkin. Ovechkin is driving play away from the puck and significantly contributing to points scored that aren't reflected in his PP P/60. This is shown in the fact that Ovechkin's PP G / 60 is 40% higher than Malkin's despite Ovie playing more minutes and with lesser teammates on average.

NHL.com Stats

Also, Goals >> Primary Assists >>>>>> Secondary assists

Ovechkin has 617 primary points to Malkin's 537.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Best player is pretty clearly Malkin. Best resume is another question though.

 

[filinski77]

Best 'player' is pretty close, Ovechkin has a 26% better g/gp, and a 15% lower point/gp.

As far as actual value of a player though, Ovechkin has contributed 60% more goals, and 8% more points in that time frame.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Per 60 stats often result in nutty conclusions.

No, they don't. They actually make things a lot more clear.

In this case Ovechkin plays more powerplay minutes than Malkin, including with the Capitals PP2, so more of Ovie's minutes are going to be spent on that reset when there is a clear against PP1 and there is a line change.

Malkin has a higher on-ice GF/60 than Ovechkin on the PP both with his primary PP linemate, and away from him. I don't really see any evidence that Ovechkin is better on the PP than Malkin, and then we have to get into the even more massive gap between them at ES.

Nevermind that Ovechkin isn't playing with Crosby.

This is a valid claim, but Washington has also had extremely talented players throughout that time, so I don't know how much this would impact things when looking at overall linemate quality on the PP. That's a big gap between them to cover. Crosby also had some injury issues during this time, and as mentioned above, Malkin does better away from his primary PP linemate (Crosby) than Ovechkin (Backstrom).

Ovechkin is also used as a trigger man much more than a passer, although when he does pass the puck he's excellent at it. Ovechkin's role reduces his points per 60 because he generally isn't being asked to make the routine perimeter passes than any AHL caliber player can make. And when he does pass he often ends up scoring the goal anyway which arbitrarily wipes away what would have been a secondary assist.

A goal is a point... Malkin also has a better primary point per 60 on the PP as well.

Ovechkin's deployment opens up other players on the Capitals to score because opposing teams often dedicate a defender to Ovie thus giving the rest of the team a 4 on 3. No other player in the world gets this kind of attention from defenses because Ovie is the greatest goal scorer of all time and this makes him a unique weapon. As great as Malkin is, he doesn't garner anywhere near this kind of attention from defenses on the PP.

This sounds like a lot of unsubstantiated speculation, that's not supported by his on-ice GF/60.

 

[KevSkillz4]

Malkin AINEC. Malkin is a better player than Crosby too! Without Crosby and injury, Malkin is the best PENGUINS PITTSBURGH since MARIO LEMIEUX!

 

[Midnight Judges]

No, they don't. They actually make things a lot more clear.

Per 60 stats ignore fatigue and minutes - both of which are important context.

But since you think points per 60 stats make things more clear, then you agree with the following:

Mitch Marner is significantly better on the powerplay than Sidney Crosby?
Alex Ovechkin is the 53rd most effective player in the NHL on the powerplay (minimum 280 games played) over the past 10 years?
Ovechkin is the fourth best player on the Capitals powerplay - and this is why the Caps double shift only Ovie on the PP? That's your theory?!?
Nick Backstrom is better than Malkin and Crosby on the PP, and uh, carrying Ovie I suppose?
NHL coaches would prefer to have Eric Haula on their powerplay over Alex Ovechkin?

NHL.com Stats

Malkin has a higher on-ice GF/60 than Ovechkin on the PP both with his primary PP linemate, and away from him. I don't really see any evidence that Ovechkin is better on the PP than Malkin, and then we have to get into the even more massive gap between them at ES.

And who is that? Crosby? I really don't know because you aren't posting any links or citing any sources.

So Malkin has a better GF/60 playing on the Pens PP1 with Crosby than Ovie does playing on the PP1 with Backstrom? And Malkin has a better GF/60 playing with the Pens PP1 without Crosby than Ovie does without Backstrom - which means he's playing with the Caps PP2?

I don't know how to square your assertions with the link I posted above. Nick Backstrom has a higher P/60 on the PP than Malkin or Crosby, and nearly 100% of Backstrom's powerplay minutes are with Ovie.

This sounds like a lot of unsubstantiated speculation, that's not supported by his on-ice GF/60.

Nick Backstrom's GF/60 on the powerplay is higher than Malkin or Crosby's:

NHL.com Stats

Nick Backstrom's secondary assists per 60 (3.16) is the highest in the NHL by a huge margin over anyone else who played the PP remotely as much as him in that time frame:

NHL.com Stats

The way the Capitals PP works is, Kuznetsov enters the zone with the puck (previously Johansson), passes to Backstrom. Backstrom passes to the right side point (Mike Green, now John Carlson), and they pass to Ovie for the one-timer. So Backstrom makes an uncontested pass to the blue line. Ovechkin scores the goal on the one-timer.

You think the player making the uncontested perimeter pass is superior to the player blasting the unscreened one-timer past the goalie when everyone and their dog knows it's coming. Like I said, that's a nutty conclusion.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Per 60 stats ignore fatigue and minutes - both of which are important context.

Actually, per 60 stats consider minutes. That's the whole point. Raw points ignores minutes/opportunity, which is critical context. There is little to no fatigue involved with standing around on the PP.

Mitch Marner is significantly better on the powerplay than Sidney Crosby?

I wouldn't say significant, but Marner is one of the best PP players in the league since he entered, so this shouldn't be a shocking statement regardless. Marner has a slightly better P/60; Crosby has a slightly better P1/60.

The rest of your questions are stated in intentionally misleading ways to elicit reaction, so I won't start getting into all that.

And who is that? Crosby?

Yes, I said that in my post.

So Malkin has a better GF/60 playing on the Pens PP1 with Crosby than Ovie does playing on the PP1 with Backstrom?

Yes, and Ovechkin has had pretty good PP linemate quality.

And Malkin has a better GF/60 playing with the Pens PP1 without Crosby than Ovie does without Backstrom - which means he's playing with the Caps PP2?

I'm not sure why you think one is playing with garbage and one is playing with everybody awesome except Crosby in these situations?

Nick Backstrom has a higher P/60 on the PP than Malkin or Crosby, and nearly 100% of Backstrom's powerplay minutes are with Ovie.

Yes, Backstrom is a good PP player, and has played in pretty advantageous circumstances.

Nick Backstrom's GF/60 on the powerplay is higher than Malkin or Crosby's:

It's a pretty negligible difference. Also, not sure why you're so focused on the PP when there's a massive difference between Malkin and Ovechkin at ES.

You think the player making the uncontested perimeter pass is superior to the player blasting the unscreened one-timer past the goalie when everyone and their dog knows it's coming.

I mean, you can argue that Ovechkin does more than Backstrom in the plays which result in goals that both were involved in, and you'd probably be right. The thing is, Backstrom gets better production beyond just those plays.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The rest of your questions are stated in intentionally misleading ways to elicit reaction, so I won't start getting into all that.

Those are the logical conclusions of relying on P/60 stats, and they are designed to give you pause. But there is absolutely nothing misleading about them.

You can address them, or maybe you're in denial.

 

[filinski77]

ES P/60

Malkin: 2.83
Ovechkin: 2.35

ES G/60

Ovechkin: 1.33
Malkin: 1.20

PP P/60

Malkin: 6.54
Ovechkin: 5.07

PP G/60

Ovechkin: 3.13
Malkin: 2.24

Ovechkin is the better goalscorer. Malkin has pretty clearly been the better player.

NHL.com Stats

So are Kubalik and Gallagher better goalscorers than Matthews, they just need more opportunities to score more?

Is Matthews essentially on the same level (goalscoring wise) as Arvidsson, Vrana, Bjorkstrand, Guentzel (I'll tell you for a fact I believe Matthews is much better than all 4 of them)

NHL.com Stats

Is Kucherov really that much better than McDavid?

Are Kubalik, Tatar, Guentzel, Point, Stamkos all better than Matthews?

Is Panarin really on a completely different tier (20% better production) than Matthews is?

 

[The Moose is Loose]

Its close enough I'd choose based on need. If I need a goalscorer/am deep down the middle I'd take Ovi. If not, take Malkin.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Those are the logical conclusions of relying on P/60 stats, and they are designed to give you pause.

They are not the logical conclusions of utilizing P/60 in evaluations. You have twisted things and taken things to extremes as you ignore context.

Mitch Marner is an awesome PP player, and has no relevance to this discussion.
Ovechkin is a good PP player, but has been overrated due to the ridiculous minutes he gets, resulting in unrepresentative raw production.
Ovechkin is one of the better players on the Capitals PP, but they should not be giving exclusively him those ridiculous minutes, especially recently.
I haven't looked at Backstrom very in-depth, so I don't know how he stacks up. I do know he is a great point producer on the PP. Not as good at primary point production.
No, NHL coaches would not prefer Haula on the PP. Ovechkin is a better goal scorer, a better primary point producer, an equal point producer, and is way, way, way, way, way more proven and sustainable.

You didn't actually address anything I posted, and you're continuing to ignore the massive difference between them at ES as well. Anyway, the stats are there for those who wish to utilize them in their evaluations and be accurate. I don't have much of a desire to continuously explain them to people.

 

[Fixxer]

I have not voted yet. Malkin has been injured a significant amounf of time. He's still over a PPG even if his intensity varies.

Ovechkin kept on scoring goals, but his assists levels dropped and defensive play was criticized at least a few seasons. He mostly stopped forechecking the way he used to etc. Lets the other wingers and centermen get the puck. Sure got tamer after the Campbell hit/suspension. Doesn't go hitting people like he used to, but he sure does hit and he does it HARD! (Ask Jonathan Drouin).

One got injured frequently. The other one couldn't maintain his level of play from 2005 to spring 2010.
Washington's cup win was important to Ovie. Malkin won the Conn Smythe in '09 (not 2010-2020) but Crosby and once Kessel were considered top factors for the Pens 2 cup wins.

Malkin has always been the most obscure player among superstars. Not included in the top 100 NHL players. Having Crosby as a teammate creates more shade. I think he likes it this way. Anyway... I'm still puzzled. Ovie lost more in terms of physical gifts (except his perfected one-timer) but winning a cup raised his stock. Not only was Ovie playing all out his first 5 years, he also produced as much as Crosby and Malkin, who although centering their line at even strength, played on the PP together, at least when it mattered the most. Then 2010-2011 happens... Crosby concussed 41 games/66 points, Malkin 43 games/37 points, Ovechkin 79 games /32 goals... 85 points (Star but not superstar level, especially less involved in the play).

 

[JaegerDice]

When healthy, Malkin has been the better player.

But with Malkin, 'when healthy' is a pretty massive caveat. You might want to add 'when motivated' too.

I went with Ovechkin.

I think, when Malkin hits top gear, he's the better, more impactful player. But I know what I'm getting from Ovechkin game in, game out, and I know I'm getting him game in, game out.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So are Kubalik and Gallagher better goalscorers than Matthews, they just need more opportunities to score more?
Is Matthews essentially on the same level (goalscoring wise) as Arvidsson, Vrana, Bjorkstrand, Guentzel (I'll tell you for a fact I believe Matthews is much better than all 4 of them)
Is Kucherov really that much better than McDavid?
Are Kubalik, Tatar, Guentzel, Point, Stamkos all better than Matthews?
Is Panarin really on a completely different tier (20% better production) than Matthews is?

I mean, I could go one by one for these players and give an explanation of what you're seeing, but they have nothing to do with this thread, and if you can't argue against something without making false claims based on ignoring entire game states, all context/linemates/situations, and sample size, then you don't really have an argument at all. Just misleading statements attempting to discredit valuable statistics.