Ovechkin vs Laine comparison.

[Varan]

Completely different player types. Laine thrives when there is a lot of space due to his mediocre speed but awesome shot. Indeed, in those scenarios he is better than Ovechkin. However, when the space it tight ie. in the playoffs, he is quite easily shut down and cannot produce (especially goal-scoring wise).

So Laine is the better regular seasoner but he will probably never reach the level of Ovi in the post-season due to his physical limitations which I don't see him overcoming.

Have you seen OV with a lot of space? Better regular seasoner? What? I cannot believe these claims, even the staunchest OV haters can't say this with a straight face.

If you seriously had to leave someone open between Laine or OV, you are seriously telling me you would leave OV open over Laine? Please tell me this is a joke. Even Penguins fans wouldn't be caught dead trying to make this statement.

Better regular seasoner? Unless Laine will eclipse OV in career goal totals and put up better regular seasons than him at his peak by way of scoring 60-70+ goals (while he can't even deal with a 32 year old OV) because he isn't a good enough playmaker to get high assists, there is no way on Earth he would be a better RS player than OV. No f***ing way.

Mods delete this thread ASAP

 

[thunder16]

You are underselling Laine.

You guys are actually over rating him big time!

 

[cowboy82nd]

Actually his ice-time was lowered by almost a minute and a half in his second season.

PP goals and EV goals count the same on the board. And again I counter with this:

Post from jepjepjoo:

--

Lets compare Laine's 2nd season to Ovi's first:

2017-2018 Winnipeg Jets had 274 pp opportunities
2005-2006 Washington Capitals had 495 pp opportunities

Ovechkin had 6:43 pp, toi 14:05 ev toi, season total: 1,751:22
Laine had 3:00 pp toi, 13:28 ev toi, season total: 1,351:25

hypothetically if Laine had Ovechkin's ev+pp TOI he would have scored 69 goals 108pts

Of course this isn't a fair comparision, but it puts the 05-06 season into context."

The bolded part is what is wrong with your argument .... HYPOTHETICALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!! That means that it DID NOT happen.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

There are some issues with his linemates if you care to read my posts from a bit earlier. Laine-Little combination kills any offence. Other pairings (and I mean any other pairings) work much better. And Laine played something like 50 games with Little this past season.

So, at least we can agree Laine isn't a line driver-right?

 

[DRW204]

There are some issues with his linemates if you care to read my posts from a bit earlier. Laine-Little combination kills any offence. Other pairings (and I mean any other pairings) work much better. And Laine played something like 50 games with Little this past season.

I am aware of this.

Do you see Ovie's line ups from those early Caps teams? I don't think it's tough to argue that Laine's most common linemates (Ehlers, Little, Stastny, Wheeler) are better than the forwards on those teams sans Ovie. Also, the PMD/Offensive Dman that the Jets have, notably on the right side in Trouba/Buff/Myers BY FAR trump the talent on those teams.

Do you think Laine would be putting up the same numbers with an iteration of Chris Clark, Danius Zubrus and a collection of D of Witt and Heyward? That Caps scored 230 goals WITH ovie putting up 52-54-106. This Jets team put up 273.

Just to circle back to TOI, you can't automatically assume that the production will increase at the same rate due plenty of other external factors.

 

[grieves]

The bolded part is what is wrong with your argument .... HYPOTHETICALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!! That means that it DID NOT happen.

So the whole post is then devoid of any value and does not give more context to what we are actually talking about? Nah.

I do applaud you for actually replying to this head on. Many just spam some nonsense how Ovi was supa electric playah (which he was) and Laine can't even come close even though actual data says there is a good possibility Laine can reach those levels.

 

[grieves]

So, at least we can agree Laine isn't a line driver-right?

At this point we can definitely agree that 19yo Laine was not a line-driver.

 

[grieves]

I am aware of this.

Do you see Ovie's line ups from those early Caps teams? I don't think it's tough to argue that Laine's most common linemates (Ehlers, Little, Stastny, Wheeler) are better than the forwards on those teams sans Ovie. Also, the PMD/Offensive Dman that the Jets have, notably on the right side in Trouba/Buff/Myers BY FAR trump the talent on those teams.

Do you think Laine would be putting up the same numbers with an iteration of Chris Clark, Danius Zubrus and a collection of D of Witt and Heyward? That Caps scored 230 goals WITH ovie putting up 52-54-106. This Jets team put up 273.

Just to circle back to TOI, you can't automatically assume that the production will increase at the same rate due plenty of other external factors.

I agree that there are plenty of external factors, but I would say that it's not so much about the quality of line-mates rather than the chemistry between the players. Laine for example played much better offensively with Andrew Copp, but no-one would argue that Copp is a better player than Little.

I don't know anything about the chemistry of Ovi's line at 20yo, but I'm glad it worked out for him. This is a team game after all.

But in any case, hockey is soon upon us and we can see what Laine can come up with in his comparable season. No one is denying that he is against some hardcore players here.

 

[Brun0]

People seem to have short memories. Let's clear some things up.

1)
Post from jepjepjoo:

--

Lets compare Laine's 2nd season to Ovi's first:

2017-2018 Winnipeg Jets had 274 pp opportunities
2005-2006 Washington Capitals had 495 pp opportunities

Ovechkin had 6:43 pp, toi 14:05 ev toi, season total: 1,751:22
Laine had 3:00 pp toi, 13:28 ev toi, season total: 1,351:25

hypothetically if Laine had Ovechkin's ev+pp TOI he would have scored 69 goals 108pts

Of course this isn't a fair comparision, but it puts the 05-06 season into context."
Conclusion: There is more data to hockey than just PPG. Just look at that post and let it really sink in before you open your mouth. Laine has not been double-shifted on the PP, which is something I believe Ovi was doing from the start (correct me if I'm wrong).

For most of his NHL career, Laine has been playing in a very non-functional offensive line. Everyone yells how he plays on a stacked team but his line is void of any chemistry whatsoever. Whenever this line is broken up, Laine goes on a tear. Last time it was with Stastny as he broke the teenage point-streak record (to clarify: No other teen in NHL history has scored in 14 consecutive games) and started chasing the Rocket seemingly out of nowhere.



2)

According to the advanced stats community, NHL experience is not very important. The game is the same everywhere, just the opponents change. Ovi had plenty of practice with the Caps before his first NHL appearance. Physical maturity is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, which is why we go by age and not some voodoo "NHL experience". Please understand this now. Or if you don't agree with it, understand that you are going againt people who actually calculate these things for a living. You have every right to do so, but I think that is stupid.

If you ignore age completely, please don't write anything further about this subject until you have read up on it.



3)

I also see stylistically Laine as some kind of Mario-Ovechkin hybrid. No-one is saying that Laine is at the level of prime Ovi, but there is a good chance he gets there, even though it may FEEL like this is an impossible feat for Laine who seems to suck (because low TOI and being a teenager).

e: Maybe Mario-Stamkos hybrid moreso.

 

[DRW204]

I agree that there are plenty of external factors, but I would say that it's not so much about the quality of line-mates rather than the chemistry between the players. Laine for example played much better offensively with Andrew Copp, but no-one would argue that Copp is a better player than Little.

I don't know anything about the chemistry of Ovi's line at 20yo, but I'm glad it worked out for him. This is a team game after all.

But in any case, hockey is soon upon us and we can see what Laine can come up with in his comparable season. No one is denying that he is against some hardcore players here.

So in other words it's all Bryan Little's fault . Seems par for the course for most Laine fans on here

 

[oXo Cube]

The problem with this Laine has been held back by his place in the lineup argument is that Ovechkin would not have been in the same circumstance, because he would have been the best player on the Jets and it wouldn't really have been close.

 

[grieves]

So in other words it's all Bryan Little's fault . Seems par for the course for most Laine fans on here

No, it's the fault of the chemistry between the two. Little has been awesome in other combos, as has Laine.

 

[DRW204]

Ovie started his career at 20 years and 18 days old...

Laine has PO games from 20 YO-18 days to 20 yo 31 days stats 7gp 2g 1a
Ovie from20 YO-18 days to 20 yo 31 days stats 7gp 4g 4a

Laine has some catching up to do

Laine will start this year at 20 YO 168 days old, Ovie at that age - End of 05-06 season put up 24gp 14g 21a 35pts

 

[thunder16]

So in other words it's all Bryan Little's fault . Seems par for the course for most Laine fans on here

Why blame Laine when it's easier to blame everyone else!!!

 

[DRW204]

Why blame Laine when it's easier to blame everyone else!!!

It's not false that Ehlers-Little-Laine were very inconsistent but the heap of the blame goes to Little, never Laine it seems.

 

[grieves]

It's not false that Ehlers-Little-Laine were very inconsistent but the heap of the blame goes to Little, never Laine it seems.

C'mon. This is like the cheapest straw-man there is. You wouldn't believe how much this comes up and it's always shut down with ease.

They have poor chemistry together, no more, no less.

 

[DRW204]

C'mon. This is like the cheapest straw-man there is. You wouldn't believe how much this comes up and it's always shut down with ease.

They have poor chemistry together, no more, no less.

read the several iterations of the Laine threads in HFJets, notably the ones that were active during the year. It was a legit narrative being brought up

 

[Randyne]

Adding ice-time most certainly will improve your scoring totals. To argue otherwise is interesting to say the least. You could say that it might not increase at the same rate, which is fair, but to say it won't increase is BS.

It make sense,
but if you take half Laine's games (77GP) with the most TOI from 17:21 to 21:57 with total 1457 min (18:55 per game average) You'll find that he scored 37 goals (46%).
The rest 43 goals (54%) he scored in the least TOI games (77GP) (from 12:44 to 17:19; total 1196:15; average 15:32).
ps. I didn't count one game with 5:59 and no goals.

hypothetically if Laine had Ovechkin's ev+pp TOI he would have scored 69 goals 108pts

It's not working with Laine.
He scored only 4 goals in 17 games with most TOI (353:39 total; 20:48 average per game)

 

[grieves]

read the several iterations of the Laine threads in HFJets, notably the ones that were active during the year. It was a legit narrative being brought up

Trust me, I know exactly what was said in those threads. And even if you were right, what does that have to do with me and this situation right now? It just seems like you are having to resort to some low blows, which usually means that your high blows are not being effective.

It make sense,
but if you take half Laine's games (77GP) with the most TOI from 17:21 to 21:57 with total 1457 min (18:55 per game average) You'll find that he scored 37 goals (46%).
The rest 43 goals (54%) he scored in the least TOI games (77GP) (from 12:44 to 17:19; total 1196:15; average 15:32).
ps. I didn't count one game with 5:59 and no goals.

That is just random variation at work, but I do applaud your effort .

 

[DRW204]

Trust me, I know exactly what was said in those threads. And even if you were right, what does that have to do with me and this situation right now? It just seems like you are having to resort to some low blows, which usually means that your high blows are not being effective.



That is just random variation at work, but I do applaud your effort .

My post wasn't even direct/quoted to you man. Stop getting sensitive over it.

 

[cupface52]

If Laine gets the benefit of hypotheticals, why doesnt Ovechkin get that same opportunity?

If Laine gets more hypothetical goals if were to get more pp time like Ovie did in 05-06, shouldn't ovie get more hypothetical goals playing on the Jets team. He'd have Scheifele(he'd be the team's best winger) as his center and playing on a potent jets pp. With those opportunities Ovechkin scores 70+ goals and wins the Art Ross his rookie year. Am I doing it right?

 

[grieves]

My post wasn't even direct/quoted to you man. Stop getting sensitive over it.

"So in other words it's all Bryan Little's fault . Seems par for the course for most Laine fans on here"

You literally quoted me in this post.

 

[DRW204]

If Laine gets the benefit of hypotheticals, why doesnt Ovechkin get that same opportunity?

If Laine gets more hypothetical goals if were to get more pp time like Ovie did in 05-06, shouldn't ovie get more hypothetical goals playing on the Jets team. He'd have Scheifele(he'd be the team's best winger) as his center and playing on a potent jets pp. With those opportunities Ovechkin scores 70+ goals and wins the Art Ross his rookie year. Am I doing it right?

Laine didn't play a lot with Scheifele at EV but even if you throw Ovie with Little-Ehlers, and a combo of Buff/Enstrom /Trouba/Myers/ on the back end (Buff-Enstrom was the 2nd pairing but not sure how the TOI fluctuates b/w Fwds and D group) that's far better than the talent on those WSH teams.

Laine played w/ Wheeler-Buff-Scheifele-Connor/Stastny on the PP. Put young Ovie on there...jesus.

 

[DRW204]

"So in other words it's all Bryan Little's fault . Seems par for the course for most Laine fans on here"

You literally quoted me in this post.

i'm talking about this and how you followed it up in post 422

 

[Randyne]

That is just random variation at work, but I do applaud your effort .

I didn't randomize anything. I've sorted 155(-1) games by TOI and divided by two equal halves. I can agree that 155GP it's small sample size but I'm working with what I've got.