Speculation: Outlook on our defense's future

[God Says No]

Cowen and Ceci's pair was the one matched up against Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Wier say limited ice against them (about 6 shifts).

Don't get me wrong, I liked how he played, but lets not pretend he was used in anything remotely close to a shutdown role.

Where do you get such data?

 

[Micklebot]

Where do you get such data?

http://nullisecund.us/nhl/toi.php?id=20515

edit: you can find the appropriate game using this link:

http://www.nicetimeonice.com/

 

[God Says No]

http://nullisecund.us/nhl/toi.php?id=20515

edit: you can find the appropriate game using this link:

http://www.nicetimeonice.com/

Cool. Thanks.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Cameron has shown that our D is far from horrible

It has a serious hole and, should that hole be filled, we'll be looking good could be borderline great if Cowen and Ceci keep getting better

 

[Boud]

Dude. He played against Datsyuk and Zetterberg last night and didn't give them a sniff. If anyone is dumped it's Phillips. Also Boro before Wiercioch.

And maybe even Cowen. Wiericoch is this team's best LD at the moment; he's the only LD that can be trusted in OT and 4-on-4, that's telling

He's slow and a liability defensively. Borowiecki is a lot better defensively and brings physicality we need that much more than Wiercioch. Cowen's play this year is miles ahead of what it used to be last year, and a lot better than what Wiercioch can bring. Wiercioch is alright 1 game out of 10.

 

[jbeck5]

Does anybody who watches bingo regularly have any insight on what, if anything, we have in chris wideman? Obviously he's putting up the numbers down there but he's also small, 24 years old and doesn't seem to ever be mentioned by sens management when talking about d prospects.

Sounds like hoffman.

 

[Micklebot]

He's slow and a liability defensively. Borowiecki is a lot better defensively and brings physicality we need that much more than Wiercioch. Cowen's play this year is miles ahead of what it used to be last year, and a lot better than what Wiercioch can bring. Wiercioch is alright 1 game out of 10.

Wiercioch has his issues defensively, but it's extremely overblown. He hasn't been particularly sheltered this year, playing on all 3 pairings about the same amount, has the best GF% among D, and is the only D with CF% >50%.

The guy has quietly gone about his business, and done a solid job despite a slow start to the season and being in and out of the lineup. We allow fewer shots against with him on the ice, mostly because he's able to get the puck out of the zone once it's on his stick.

Yes, he struggles against speed and isn't a physical force, but he's got a good stick and has been good at preventing entry into our zone with control. His positioning has also improved over the years.

It's kinda funny; he's posted good underlying numbers, and standard stats since breaking into the league, but for some reason it's not the end results that matter to some people but rather how he looks doing it. For the most part, he's provided far more positive results than negative ones, but nobody seems to care about that.

 

[Johnny Hanson]

Sounds like hoffman.

That's what I was thinking. Only Hoffman has had a few call ups over the years. Wideman hasn't even had a sniff

 

[mcnorth]

Wiercioch has his issues defensively, but it's extremely overblown. He hasn't been particularly sheltered this year, playing on all 3 pairings about the same amount, has the best GF% among D, and is the only D with CF% >50%.

The guy has quietly gone about his business, and done a solid job despite a slow start to the season and being in and out of the lineup. We allow fewer shots against with him on the ice, mostly because he's able to get the puck out of the zone once it's on his stick.

Yes, he struggles against speed and isn't a physical force, but he's got a good stick and has been good at preventing entry into our zone with control. His positioning has also improved over the years.

It's kinda funny; he's posted good underlying numbers, and standard stats since breaking into the league, but for some reason it's not the end results that matter to some people but rather how he looks doing it. For the most part, he's provided far more positive results than negative ones, but nobody seems to care about that.

I think perhaps people think you've maxed out if you're doing it ugly, if you know what I mean. You can be an effective player at the current level, but any faster and stronger, any smarter, and your deficiencies will be thoroughly exposed. It's why a guy like Locke, for example, can't play in the NHL but he can be an effective player in the AHL.

 

[WhiteLight*]

Cowen and Ceci's pair was the one matched up against Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Wier say limited ice against them (about 6 shifts).

Don't get me wrong, I liked how he played, but lets not pretend he was used in anything remotely close to a shutdown role.

I noticed Ceci and Cowen with that matchup at the start of the game and Wiercioch Gryba towards the end, figured the switched it up around the time Cowen and Ceci got scored on, but I guess I'm wrong.

Still, I noticed more than once they specifically put Wiercioch and Gryba out there against Datsyuk Zetterberg during a whistle line change, I believe after Karlsson was on, so the other pair I think was available. PW was awesome, handled it nicely

Wiercioch has his issues defensively, but it's extremely overblown. He hasn't been particularly sheltered this year, playing on all 3 pairings about the same amount, has the best GF% among D, and is the only D with CF% >50%.

The guy has quietly gone about his business, and done a solid job despite a slow start to the season and being in and out of the lineup. We allow fewer shots against with him on the ice, mostly because he's able to get the puck out of the zone once it's on his stick.

Yes, he struggles against speed and isn't a physical force, but he's got a good stick and has been good at preventing entry into our zone with control. His positioning has also improved over the years.

It's kinda funny; he's posted good underlying numbers, and standard stats since breaking into the league, but for some reason it's not the end results that matter to some people but rather how he looks doing it. For the most part, he's provided far more positive results than negative ones, but nobody seems to care about that.

And I think he looks good while doing it. Most underrated Senator by the fans and the team

 

[Hammertyme]

Cowen and Ceci's pair was the one matched up against Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Wier say limited ice against them (about 6 shifts).

Don't get me wrong, I liked how he played, but lets not pretend he was used in anything remotely close to a shutdown role.

PW will never get the shutdown role as he is physically incapable at this point of winning battles along the boards. As far as him being the best LD ..No! He is sitting because he is a #8 dman on this team.

 

[Rysto]

The sad thing is Murray keeps saying that he likes our defense.

You can't really trust that anything that a team says publicly. Murray will only criticize players publicly if he specifically wants media attention on those players.

Being too truthful with the media can just create a huge distraction for the team.

 

[ottawah]

Being too truthful with the media can just create a huge distraction for the team.

Just ask McLean ........

 

[God Says No]

PW will never get the shutdown role as he is physically incapable at this point of winning battles along the boards. As far as him being the best LD ..No! He is sitting because he is a #8 dman on this team.

I don't see it. Can you give me some concrete examples of him losing board battles?

I see him losing foot battles, but I don't see him losing board battles.

 

[jbeck5]

That's what I was thinking. Only Hoffman has had a few call ups over the years. Wideman hasn't even had a sniff

Weve had more of a clogging in the third pair area than the 4th line...though were over abundant in both yet refuse to move any to improve our lineup.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Yup, don't forget we can move Methot for assets ourselves. Ideally he'll be back with at least Month left before the deadline and we can flip assets around where the net loss of everything isn't as big as just acquiring a missing piece on D.

If Methot doesn't return soon and play with no obvious issues from his back/hip problem, Murray would be lucky to get a used program for him.

 

[StefanW]

Weve had more of a clogging in the third pair area than the 4th line...though were over abundant in both yet refuse to move any to improve our lineup.

We do have a logjam in the bottom part of the lineup, but I don't think "refuse to move any" captures the situation. It is probably more a case of teams not wanting to give us a dollar for three quarters. We also cant add salary, which makes it even tougher to put together a deal that works for us and another club.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Weve had more of a clogging in the third pair area than the 4th line...though were over abundant in both yet refuse to move any to improve our lineup.

Major assumption you are making.

Fact, before a trade can be made another GM has to have significant interest in one of the prospects to offer a return that is a definite improvement to the NHL roster.

(Now should this occur, Murray would have every right to ask his scouting department what have they missed?).

Fact is NHL GMs aren't in the habit of offering up NHL quality players for unknown prospects.

The problem for GMBM is the supporting veteran players just haven't been good enough to draw any interest from other GMs, thus allowing Murray to potentially sweeten the deal with a young prospect.

Fact, the strategy for rebuilding this team is clear, draft and develop.

It is working IMO.

The young guys are getting better, contributing more and are by in large the better players on the roster.

IMO this team is far better than last year's squad, they are competing on an equal level most nights, what they lack is experience, only gained with playing time.

So my question is simple, why trade away the potential of a Puempel or Prince just because some of the veterans can't play at the required level?

Would the team be letting go of the next Hoffman to gain a slightly better version of Michalek, Legwand or Greening?

 

[Holdurbreathe]

We do have a logjam in the bottom part of the lineup, but I don't think "refuse to move any" captures the situation. It is probably more a case of teams not wanting to give us a dollar for three quarters. We also cant add salary, which makes it even tougher to put together a deal that works for us and another club.

Who says the Sens can't add salary, Melnyk clearly stated GMBM could add salary in an attempt to improve the team.

BM has been interested in acquiring Stewart, a player making considerably more than any a majority of the current Sens roster.

So I don't believe adding salary is the issue, its the quality of the players Bryan is offering up.

 

[StefanW]

Who says the Sens can't add salary, Melnyk clearly stated GMBM could add salary in an attempt to improve the team.

Show me one time in the past three seasons, when the budget became an issue, where the Sens made a move(s) that added net salary during the season.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

I noticed Ceci and Cowen with that matchup at the start of the game and Wiercioch Gryba towards the end, figured the switched it up around the time Cowen and Ceci got scored on, but I guess I'm wrong.

Still, I noticed more than once they specifically put Wiercioch and Gryba out there against Datsyuk Zetterberg during a whistle line change, I believe after Karlsson was on, so the other pair I think was available. PW was awesome, handled it nicely

And I think he looks good while doing it. Most underrated Senator by the fans and the team

I don't think the team underrates PW, it is a case where PW hasn't done enough to move up in the lineup and the coaches want more physicality from the 3rd pairing.

PW is also the slowest of the Sens D, so playing him with EK is just not possible given what EK's partner is expected to do.

IMO Murray hasn't given up on Patrick and seems more than willing to give him all the development time he needs.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Show me one time in the past three seasons, when the budget became an issue, where the Sens made a move(s) that added net salary during the season.

You aren't making your point with that question.

Show me one time in the last three seasons where an opposing GM has made an offer that Murray refused due to salary restrictions?

What it seems you are advocating is making change for the sake of change, not improvement.

I am sure opposing GM would make a deal for Zibanejad, Hoffman, Turris, Stone, Lazar, Ceci, Cowen, Karlsson, Ryan or Lehner.

However those aren't the players any GM would want to move off this roster.

What is a more relevant question, what do you thing Greening, Neil, Legwand, Michalek or Phillips might return that would improve the team, without throwing in prospects to get rid of the garbage.

The answer is probably zero, but that is the next phase in building this team IMO.

 

[jbeck5]

Major assumption you are making.

Fact, before a trade can be made another GM has to have significant interest in one of the prospects to offer a return that is a definite improvement to the NHL roster.

(Now should this occur, Murray would have every right to ask his scouting department what have they missed?).

Fact is NHL GMs aren't in the habit of offering up NHL quality players for unknown prospects.

The problem for GMBM is the supporting veteran players just haven't been good enough to draw any interest from other GMs, thus allowing Murray to potentially sweeten the deal with a young prospect.

Fact, the strategy for rebuilding this team is clear, draft and develop.

It is working IMO.

The young guys are getting better, contributing more and are by in large the better players on the roster.

IMO this team is far better than last year's squad, they are competing on an equal level most nights, what they lack is experience, only gained with playing time.

So my question is simple, why trade away the potential of a Puempel or Prince just because some of the veterans can't play at the required level?

Would the team be letting go of the next Hoffman to gain a slightly better version of Michalek, Legwand or Greening?

I'm talking about how Murray kept alluding that he was done because our roster was filled with 1-ways and we had no room. Also mentioned how we were up against the 50 contract limit so we couldn't fit something.

Our gm should have been looking at waiving/trading/buying out our 4th liners/3rd pair. Or better yet, don't sign them to multi year deals when we have prospects pushing.

Even many fans mention our 50 contract limit, or our 1 ways as reasons why we can't or shouldn't make a trade or sign a better player, or call someone up. That's what I find rediculous.

 

[StefanW]

You aren't making your point with that question.

Show me one time in the last three seasons where an opposing GM has made an offer that Murray refused due to salary restrictions?

I am making my point. None of us know what is and is not offered in discussions, so that is essentially a non-argument (more precisely a crap argument, but I digress). The tangible proof we have are deals that are made. We are in dollar in/dollar out mode, which impacts on our ability to make deals. Especially when it comes to moving out the contracts people here tend to want to get rid of, such as Greening or Michalek.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

I'm talking about how Murray kept alluding that he was done because our roster was filled with 1-ways and we had no room. Also mentioned how we were up against the 50 contract limit so we couldn't fit something.

Our gm should have been looking at waiving/trading/buying out our 4th liners/3rd pair. Or better yet, don't sign them to multi year deals when we have prospects pushing.

Even many fans mention our 50 contract limit, or our 1 ways as reasons why we can't or shouldn't make a trade or sign a better player, or call someone up. That's what I find rediculous.

Let's not play the game where you take what you know today and use it to justify some alternative strategy without really knowing whether any of the suggested alternate moves could have been made or would have made the team better.

Buying out 3rd or 4th line players is a losing strategy IMO, it just makes little sense.

The number of one way contracts isn't a problem either, since any trade moves a contract for a contract.

As far as call ups, they are generally dictated by injury so again where is the issue?

The 50 contract limit isn't a big deal either as long as the key prospects are included in that list and in the case of the Senators they are.

Since the rebuild started in 2011, the team has made the playoffs twice while continuing to insert youth into the lineup and increase the responsibility of the young players.

While the first wave of Greening, Condra and Smith have peaked or regressed, IMO there is nothing to be overly surprised about or even concerned with consider two of those players were drafted in the 7th round.

While BM would likely have his work cutout to move Greening, Condra nor Smith are a problem if BM decides to move them.

Now while the wins aren't as frequent as anyone would have hoped for, the team is getting better and the really good news is, it is the youth making a significant contribution, with more youth on the way.