Out of town thread V

[Kriss E]

Nashville leads league in empty net goals and assists. By a mile.

That means they're always leading...Pretty good stat for them.

 

[PaulD]

Then the Leafs should trade him to a team that thinks he is.

Yes for a D and some jam. I said that long ago. They absolutely do not need him up front. Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Kadri, Kapenen..........there aint a team in the league that needs this guy less than the loafs do.

That's just one reason why he is sitting as long as he is.

 

[PaulD]

That means they're always leading...Pretty good stat for them.

But they were always winning last year too....... and had 11 all season. Have 9 already.

Just one of those "Odd top 5 stats" listed on sports net the other day.

 

[Kriss E]

But they were always winning last year too....... and had 11 all season. Have 9 already.

Just one of those "Odd top 5 odd stats" listed on sports net the other day.

Yes indeed. Good on them anyways I guess.
Preds might be peaking too early again.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Watched Greg Pateryn playing today for Minnesota. They mentioned how steady he is. I still think Benn was a huge downgrade.

Galchenyuk scores his 3rd against the Caps.

Let's stop revisiting the Pateryn trade. His wife bought his ticket out of town. Yeah he would be better than Benn, so would about 130 other dmen in the league.

Plenty of bad trades to rehash, Pateryn is literally a dime a dozen type player.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Mclellan done in Edmonton after tonight? Oilers 4th loss in a row, getting smoked by Colorado

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Nylander is exposing a BS RFA system that takes advantage of young players. If he doesn't want to be a Leaf next year, he has zero options in hand other than holding out. That's insane.

 

[JuJu Mobb]

Mclellan done in Edmonton after tonight? Oilers 4th loss in a row, getting smoked by Colorado

He has to be done.

There's some interesting coaches on the market as well.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Nylander is exposing a BS RFA system that takes advantage of young players. If he doesn't want to be a Leaf next year, he has zero options in hand other than holding out. That's insane.

solicit offer sheets?

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

solicit offer sheets?

But that's still not in his hands. The Leafs could match and the price the offering team would pay in Draft Picks could be unpalatable and hurt their future chances of competition. That's why they arent a reasonable or consistent option for anyone.

We saw Weber get very close to forcing Nashville's hand and even then he got forced to stay against his will.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Nylander is exposing a BS RFA system that takes advantage of young players. If he doesn't want to be a Leaf next year, he has zero options in hand other than holding out. That's insane.

What's bullshit about it?

It's his first year as an RFA. Just how much protection of rights do you want a team to give up? He just did an ELC.

He has plenty of options, like playing in Europe or signing an offer sheet.

 

[The Great Weal]

Mclellan done in Edmonton after tonight? Oilers 4th loss in a row, getting smoked by Colorado

That roster is all McDavid and nothing else. No clue how they have cap issues.

 

[PaulD]

Mclellan done in Edmonton after tonight? Oilers 4th loss in a row, getting smoked by Colorado

Yes. Its time. He may be a good guy, and they may want some stability ....but as the saying goes "you cant change the 20 players".

 

[Frank Drebin]

But that's still not in his hands. The Leafs could match and the price the offering team would pay in Draft Picks could be unpalatable and hurt their future chances of competition. That's why they arent a reasonable or consistent option for anyone.

We saw Weber get very close to forcing Nashville's hand and even then he got forced to stay against his will.

I personally think he's asking too much. Teams would be happy to pay him 6.5 or even 7x6 and give up the first second and third round picks.

Hell the way our season is shaping up that's not a bad option for us.

Toronto would likely match, but I'd love to be a fly on the wall in these negotiations.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

2 pts in 14 games for Patch now
On pace for less than 12 pts.

They gotta hope its just a rough stretch, else that 7 mil extension he signed won't look good

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

What's bull**** about it?

It's his first year as an RFA. Just how much protection of rights do you want a team to give up? He just did an ELC.

He has plenty of options, like playing in Europe or signing an offer sheet.

He has no control over his own career. It is absurd and only accepted because "that's how it is".

Playing in Europe isn't a viable option either, the team still has his RFA rights and he'd have to go through waivers upon his return.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

I personally think he's asking too much. Teams would be happy to pay him 6.5 or even 7x6 and give up the first second and third round picks.

Hell the way our season is shaping up that's not a bad option for us.

Toronto would likely match, but I'd love to be a fly on the wall in these negotiations.

The Habs should sign him.

 

[mariolemieux66]

Already 62 extra points awarded.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

He has no control over his own career. It is absurd and only accepted because "that's how it is".

Playing in Europe isn't a viable option either, the team still has his RFA rights and he'd have to go through waivers upon his return.

He can go to Europe for the season and be RFA when he returns without going through waivers.

I think it's not a bad system but if players really hate it...then maybe they can negotiate it out.

How about doing like the other sports and dropping guaranteed contracts and then they can be UFA earlier? Something tells me they'll say no in a hurry.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

He can go to Europe for the season and be RFA when he returns without going through waivers.

I think it's not a bad system but if players really hate it...then maybe they can negotiate it out.

How about doing like the other sports and dropping guaranteed contracts and then they can be UFA earlier? Something tells me they'll say no in a hurry.

Why should he be RFA when he returns?

Why should he be out of the NHL, where he belongs, simply because the one GM who owns his rights doesn't want to deal with him or pay him?

Why should players give up guaranteed contracts?

I don't get your allegiance to billionaires who are essentially running a bloodsport. Who refuse to acknowledge concussions and have taken no steps to protect players. Who hold players, fans, and cities hostage at every turn?

Why should the players give anything up?

Nylander is a talented player who is under valued by his club. He shouldn't have his career hurt, and fans should have to miss out on him, simply because some owners imposed a salary cap, arcane FA rules and restrictions, and can't even manage it.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Why should he be RFA when he returns?

Because that's the leagues rules. Do you join a company and tell them they should give you more money, more benefits and let you have Fridays off? No...you go with the rules. If you're not happy you find another company.

Why should he be out of the NHL, where he belongs, simply because the one GM who owns his rights doesn't want to deal with him or pay him?

What? He can sign an offer sheet and play in NHL in a week's time if he want. Be it for leafs or someone else. There is ZERO truth to your statement.​

Why should players give up guaranteed contracts?

Other major sports don't have it, why should the NHL? It's a privilege and a ridiculous one at that.

But I suppose players should ask for more but never give? That's strong entitlement for players who aren't forced to play in the NHL.

It doesn't need to be guaranteed contracts but reality is they have good things as well.

I don't get your allegiance to billionaires who are essentially running a bloodsport. Who refuse to acknowledge concussions and have taken no steps to protect players. Who hold players, fans, and cities hostage at every turn?

You've been held hostage? Please tell me about your experience. Did they call a hostage negotiator? I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

What exactly is hostage? Lockouts? Increased ticket prices? Jesus, I want a Lamborghini diablo for about 5 grand. If I don't get it I'm being held hostage.

It's a business and you're a customer, why the sense of entitlement? No one is forced to do anything but if you want to play in the NHL you play by NHL rules. If you don't, you can play by KHL or SEL rules or whatever. It's all good. No gun to your head.

Why should the players give anything up?

Why should league give up anything?

Nylander is a talented player who is under valued by his club. He shouldn't have his career hurt, and fans should have to miss out on him, simply because some owners imposed a salary cap, arcane FA rules and restrictions, and can't even manage it.

His career is not hurt, he can sign today and be on NHL ice within a week. He can play in Sweden, Russia, etc... He has a plethora of options.

Let's make it as simple as possible:

If Nylander was asking for 3 million and leafs refused he would've got 30 offer sheets by now.

If Nylander is asking for 8 million(as reported) and he wonders why 31 teams don't want to sign him to that deal then...IT'S THE LEAGUE'S FAULT...err...right?

It's not his value, that simple. I'm not saying he shouldn't fight for it, he's free to ask for 12 million if he wants and if he gets it more power to him!

Even though we are not elite hockey players we are subject to similar restrictions in our everyday lives. Some companies force you to sign a non-compete, other companies offer you more weeks vacation and better benefits, some offer you less money. Etc...

Why should an NHL player get a free pass? What exactly is the motivation to let players be UFA after their ELC(as early as 21)?

I'll tell you what will happen. Do you think players will stay in Arizona? Florida? etc... Don't you think it would be great if players can leave small market teams who struggle as is? You know what will happen then? A loss a parity, a greater divide between teams and ultimately a loss of revenue. All of which decides the salary cap.

The league is as healthy as ever because of the rules in place. It allows for more spending on players which helps guys like Nylander and others.

Either way I've said a few times. Nylander can be playing in NHL within a week. If any team thinks his demands are reasonable he can be signed ASAP.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

RFA rules means he can't just sign with another team. There is a prohibitive cost to an offersheet. There is a reason why long second contracts "buy UFA years". You know this yet pretend it isn't a fact. It is a dishonest argument.

RFA years are a crooked arrangement to continue forceful control over a young player's market value. The NHL has a history of mistreating its players and and this is a vestige of that.

You can argue that the players can go play in a league of a country with five million inhabitants but that's a scabby argument. I want to improve the NHL here. I have no loyalty to the NHL and I won't kiss the boots of NHL owners. I watch the league because the players are the best at what they do, nothing else. Young players are paid less then they are worth for absolutely no reason.

--

As for the restrof your flippant responses, it speaks to your character and interests more than anything else. You prefer to mock fans of teams who were moved away, or have been their city held hostage for better arena deals (Calgary recently comes to mind, Ottawa too) in favour of a handful of billionaire tax-dodging owners who leverage fans' attachment to their team for more money. Gretzky was traded because the owner of his team wanted to pay his othet business debts - it wasn't fair to the fans or the player and Gretzky's tears and the country's outrage were justified.

Bring up all the Lamborghini talk you want though. Laughable.

In European soccer they do a lot wrong but what they do right is that players have to agree to move and it is hard, though not impossible, to force them of anything. They get paid what they're worth and can always renegotiate contracts. There are no arbitrary RFA years. The contracts are guaranteed because that is what a contract is - a club benefits from the player risking (literally) life and limb so the player is owned every cent of the deal. Ask Rypien or Boogard's family.

It is inhuman to impose unguaranteed contracts and the NFLPA's relative weakness is shameful, not something to replicate.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

RFA rules means he can't just sign with another team. There is a prohibitive cost to an offersheet. There is a reason why long second contracts "buy UFA years". You know this yet pretend it isn't a fact. It is a dishonest argument.

Of course there's a cost to an offer sheet but there's a premium in getting a 22 year old talented player too.

There's a cost to trades too. I guess teams won't make them?

RFA years are a crooked arrangement to continue forceful control over a young player's market value. The NHL has a history of mistreating its players and and this is a vestige of that.

Why does everything have to be some elaborate plot to ruin Nylander's career, his life, his market value, his chances of having kids.

Why can't it be what it is? A system designed to protect an asset you have taken the time to scout and develop? When a team drafts a player they have up to 7 years of value with said player. The value can be through trade, the return on an offer sheet or the player playing for you.

You can argue that the players can go play in a league of a country with five million inhabitants but that's a scabby argument. I want to improve the NHL here. I have no loyalty to the NHL and I won't kiss the boots of NHL owners. I watch the league because the players are the best at what they do, nothing else. Young players are paid less then they are worth for absolutely no reason.

Russia has 4 times the popular Canada does. If Russia isn't good enough, I guess Canada isn't either?

You want to improve the NHL by harming parity?

There is no question RFA years protect the team in some capacity but players are protected with guaranteed contracts too. You don't think NHL should remove that...because? If a player like Alzner, Gomez, Phaneuf or whoever fail to live up to their contract why should they be guaranteed?

Before the salary cap teams spent less. Restricting how much a team can spend actually increased the value of the league and the salary cap.

RFA rules are also very useful in maintaining a balanced league.

Do you prefer the rules change and parity dips resulting in less money to give Nylander? How does he win?




If you want to play it simple let's answer this one question. Would you sign Nylander to 8 million dollars for 8 years?

I wouldn't, he's not worth that...

The only semi-smart answer you can give is "I'd rather pay him 8 million than pay Alzner and Shaw" right?

Well...unfortunately you can't choose with guaranteed contracts.

As for the restrof your flippant responses, it speaks to your character and interests more than anything else. You prefer to mock fans of teams who were moved away, or have been their city held hostage for better arena deals (Calgary recently comes to mind, Ottawa too) in favour of a handful of billionaire tax-dodging owners who leverage fans' attachment to their team for more money. Gretzky was traded because the owner of his team wanted to pay his othet business debts - it wasn't fair to the fans or the player and Gretzky's tears and the country's outrage were justified.

Why is everything a hostage? The way a business runs is up to them, as long as it does nothing illegal. I didn't mock those fans. I'm just calling it what it is. Business' often relocate to improve their bottom line because...they're a business.
​

Peter Pocklington wanted to pay off debt on other businesses but lost Gretzky. I'll repeat, he lost Gretzky. Sounds like a poor business decision to me. Could've made more keeping him.

In European soccer they do a lot wrong but what they do right is that players have to agree to move and it is hard, though not impossible, to force them of anything. They get paid what they're worth and can always renegotiate contracts. There are no arbitrary RFA years. The contracts are guaranteed because that is what a contract is - a club benefits from the player risking (literally) life and limb so the player is owned every cent of the deal. Ask Rypien or Boogard's family.

I don't follow soccer so I honestly can't respond well. If they give players all the leverage then fantastic. Is there parity though? Is it a balanced atmosphere?

Guaranteed contracts in the case of Rypien and Boogaard are weird to bring up. On that topic however since you brought it up, was Rypien's family paid for his final contracted season? I did a quick search and couldn't find a thing. I'm not being insensitive, just curious about what happened. I think Boogaard's family sued the NHLPA for the balance. I have no idea what happened. It seems like when they later sued the NHL it was thrown out.

For what it's worth though, Rypien was said to suffer from depression since his teens...well before he made it to the NHL. While Boogaard had a case that painkiller addiction came from prescriptions by team physicians Rypien seemed to be having an on-going battle since before he was even draft eligible.

It's an interesting side topic. Didn't Aaron Hernandez kill himself to null an appeal and ensure the NFL pay his salary to his family? I'm not sure what every happened with that.

In any case, I'm all for guaranteed contracts as its great for a player. I'm also all for RFA rules as it helps a team. My point was only that it is unfair to get without giving.

It is inhuman to impose unguaranteed contracts and the NFLPA's relative weakness is shameful, not something to replicate.

Regardless of it being guaranteed contracts or something else why should the league concede something without players giving back?

Nylander can sign tomorrow. He can play any league he wants. A likely 1st, 2nd and a 3rd shouldn't be enough to deter a team from signing him if they think he's a premium talent.​

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

You've moved the line plenty in your last response. You still can't justify why RFA years exist. Why should players, who risk their health and future earnings, be tied to one franchise? Is there any reason? Why do players have to pay the price for """parity"""? Why should the fans have to risk losing star players because they're RFAs and their ONE franchise doesn't want to pay them what they're worth? RFA compensation is prohibitive and discouraged, it is essentially a sham.

>Would you sign Nylander to 8 million dollars for 8 years?

You don't know how much either side have offered and you're the first to demand and insist upon evidence. So prove it.

And I would've never signed Alzner to any contract.

 

[Kriss E]

Of course there's a cost to an offer sheet but there's a premium in getting a 22 year old talented player too.

There's a cost to trades too. I guess teams won't make them?

Sure there should be a cost, but four 1st rd picks? Come on now.
The compensation from offersheets seem to favor the team losing the player. They're essentially compensated for their poor asset management.
The team signing the player not only has to dish out huge cash, but also give up a ridiculous return. It's not for nothing they rarely ever happen, and such an interesting player like Nylander can just go unsigned without signing one.

Why does everything have to be some elaborate plot to ruin Nylander's career, his life, his market value, his chances of having kids.

Why can't it be what it is? A system designed to protect an asset you have taken the time to scout and develop? When a team drafts a player they have up to 7 years of value with said player. The value can be through trade, the return on an offer sheet or the player playing for you.

I think there should be a deadline to a team's inactivity in regards to RFAs. If a team hasn't settled its differences with the player, and did not move him, by game 40, offersheet compensations are halved..or something like that.

If you want to play it simple let's answer this one question. Would you sign Nylander to 8 million dollars for 8 years?

I wouldn't, he's not worth that...

The only semi-smart answer you can give is "I'd rather pay him 8 million than pay Alzner and Shaw" right?

Well...unfortunately you can't choose with guaranteed contracts.

8Mx8...Probably not. Do we know this to be his actual ask though? Or just his starting point because the Leafs are trying to bridge him?
Would he accept 7y at 6M? Cuz I'd totally do that.
For them to be so far into the season with seemingly no signs of being close to an agreement, you have to think they are world's apart.
Listening to what Shanahan said earlier, it sounds like the Leafs are the ones refusing to budge. Just like Bergey with Subban. We know PK completely gave in. Agreeing to around 5M over 2 years, when he already was in Norris shape..there is no way they gave PK anything close to what he was seeking and it's clear they were not going to negotiate a thing about it.
Feels like something similar in Toronto, except Nylander obviously doesn't mind waiting it out longer than PK did.