Out of Town: Post-frenzy Edition

[Adam Michaels]

 

[Adam Michaels]

 

[The Great Weal]

Stone, Duchene, Karlsson, Ceci are probably gone. That's crazy. However, selling on those guys will have a massive return.

 

[Adam Michaels]

 

[scrubadam]

Stone, Duchene, Karlsson, Ceci are probably gone. That's crazy. However, selling on those guys will have a massive return.

And then Ottawa will just sell those new guys in a few years anyways. What ever hopes they might have their ownership will eventually dash them.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Melnyk looks like the type of owner that would embrace a team full of ELC's.

 

[DAChampion]

Well 27.3% of current active NHL players are not from the US or Canada. That's the equivalent of ~8.5 teams worth of players.

From 91 to today the NHL expanded by 10 teams alone. So the argument that the it's more competive because the talent pool is bigger due to European players coming over doesn't hold up really well. European players aren't enough to fill out all the new expansion teams.

Also the whole stronger/faster/better ignores equipment. Give Crosby a stick that doesn't flex as much and weighs ten times as much and he isn't going to be as productive. The fact is everything has improved, all his equipment is lighter and better. Give him the old equipment and he'll be much slower.

That's why the only fair comparison is relative to peers.

The 27.3% is a biased number as the treshold is higher for foreign players. They can make it as skilled players, but it's much harder for them to last as grinders or mid tier players. This is obviously true and I'm surprised that I need to explain it to you.

There were also fewer Americans playing back then. In their case though, i don't expect the threshold to be higher.

As for old games, I actually just watched part of an old game a few days ago, from the 1980s The
Oilers beat the Flyers, it might have been 7-1. The ice was totally open and the players didn't skate as fast .

 

[Mrb1p]

Steve kournianos tries to hard to hate on Kotkaniemi, he's going to be the next McCagg soon enough.

 

[JohnLennon]

Steve kournianos tries to hard to hate on Kotkaniemi, he's going to be the next McCagg soon enough.

His organizational rankings and player rankings really didn't mesh properly, it was confusing. Definitely has strong opinions, which seem to go against the Habs this year. Having the Leafs higher than a lot of better teams in terms of overall prospects was definitely puzzling.

 

[Chili]

On the great players discussion, guys I watched...

Guy Lafleur was my favorite player, he and Bobby Hull were the two most exciting players I`ve seen.

Bobby Orr was the puck possession master. On a pk he would skate around, killing time like no one else..

Gordie Howe came back to the NHL at age 50 and didn`t miss a game.

Jean Beliveau is in a class by himself.

I seem to remember Jaromir Jagr winning the scoring title with guys like Kip Miller and Jan Hrdina as his linemates, 68 was an incredible offensive player.

Gretzky completely dominated the league in the first half of his career on arguably the last NHL dynasty.

Mario Lemieux didn`t have the level of support early in his career, until Paul Coffey arrived. My favorite line was Lemieux, Stevens and Tocchet, totally unstoppable, too bad they weren`t together for long.

Today I enjoy watching Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin among others.

As far as who was/is the best, I just enjoy all the great players I`ve seen without slotting them.

 

[NotProkofievian]

His organizational rankings and player rankings really didn't mesh properly, it was confusing. Definitely has strong opinions, which see to go against the Habs this year. Having the Leafs higher than a lot of better teams in terms of overall prospects was definitely puzzling.

I don't mind Steve's rankings. Of course, I strongly disagree with some of his calls, and he has a bit of a tendency to only talk about his hits while not mentioning his misses, but I've seen worse lists made by far more rude people. It's nice that he handles the criticism well and takes the time to respond.

 

[Adam Michaels]

These were the asks prior to arbitration:



So Ottawa wins this one as it's only $1M more than what they were offering. Whereas Ceci gets almost $2M less than what he was asking for.

 

[sandviper]

I don't mind Steve's rankings. Of course, I strongly disagree with some of his calls, and he has a bit of a tendency to only talk about his hits while not mentioning his misses, but I've seen worse lists made by far more rude people. It's nice that he handles the criticism well and takes the time to respond.

Yeah, I may not agree with the guy and he may have some recently bias at times, but he isn’t a tool and seems to handle critique well rather than dropping F bombs and telling off subscribers on social media.

 

[Sorinth]

The 27.3% is a biased number as the treshold is higher for foreign players. They can make it as skilled players, but it's much harder for them to last as grinders or mid tier players. This is obviously true and I'm surprised that I need to explain it to you.

There were also fewer Americans playing back then. In their case though, i don't expect the threshold to be higher.

As for old games, I actually just watched an old game a few days ago, from the 1980s The
Oilers beat the Flyers, it might have been 7-1. The ice was totally open and the players didn't skate as fast .

It's irrelevant if European grinders aren't making it because they aren't increasing the talent level of the league. Having a huge pool of essentially replacement level players does nothing, if suddenly there were 1 billion Chinese hockey players who were all at best 4th line players, the NHL doesn't because a stronger/more talented league.

Put Crosby in the old equipment and he wouldn't be as fast either. Have him have to work a second job because Hockey doesn't pay enough to support his family and he won't be able to workout as much in the summer and he'll be slower, prevent him from accessing anything like protein shakes and his workouts are less effective and he becomes slower, etc...

And since your argument applies to all NHL players today not just Crosby, doesn't that mean a guy like Drouin or Galchenyuk or Plekanec are also better players then Lafleur? I mean they are stronger, faster, and shoot harder too.

 

[Sterling Archer]

he will look great in a Habs jersey soon.

 

[Peanut]

Ceci is soooo bad hes like the DD version of D playing for Ottawa because he was born in Ottawa and played for the 67s. Should have protected Methot!

 

[DAChampion]

It's irrelevant if European grinders aren't making it because they aren't increasing the talent level of the league.

You're the one who brought up league-wide numbers, which necessarily includes a lot of grinders.

Put Crosby in the old equipment and he wouldn't be as fast either. Have him have to work a second job because Hockey doesn't pay enough to support his family and he won't be able to workout as much in the summer and he'll be slower, prevent him from accessing anything like protein shakes and his workouts are less effective and he becomes slower, etc...

Did Lafleur work a second job?

And since your argument applies to all NHL players today not just Crosby, doesn't that mean a guy like Drouin or Galchenyuk or Plekanec are also better players then Lafleur? I mean they are stronger, faster, and shoot harder too.

It actually applies a lot more than Crosby. Though all players potentially benefit from science, it's known that Crosby is also exceptional in that category, as opposed to just being exceptional in talent. He is known to train a lot harder and to be a lot more diligent with his diet. He is exceptional in all areas, rather than just being exceptional in the talent category, which used to be enough.

 

[JohnLennon]

I don't mind Steve's rankings. Of course, I strongly disagree with some of his calls, and he has a bit of a tendency to only talk about his hits while not mentioning his misses, but I've seen worse lists made by far more rude people. It's nice that he handles the criticism well and takes the time to respond.

Yeah, I have a soft spot for the guys who have the balls to stick to their intuition and knowledge, and defend it respectfully. He's also likely studied prospects more than me or most other people around here, so it's interesting to read his thoughts. I just couldn't understand how he ranked the Islanders prospects so well, but the team prospect rankings were quite low. He probably has his reasoning, though.

 

[Mrb1p]

His rankings of good AHL players is ridiculous. How do you have Cirelli in your top 20 prospects ? Thats just dumb. Theres no consistency in his rankings... Dahlin at 3, Pettersson at 1, Timmins above Makar, etc. Its bad.

 

[LaP]

I don't mind Steve's rankings. Of course, I strongly disagree with some of his calls, and he has a bit of a tendency to only talk about his hits while not mentioning his misses, but I've seen worse lists made by far more rude people. It's nice that he handles the criticism well and takes the time to respond.

Honestly drafting is not about misses. It's about hits. All scouts and drafting teams will miss a lot. And they all miss big names. What is important is the number and quality of hits you have in your resume imo.

 

[Sorinth]

You're the one who brought up league-wide numbers, which necessarily includes a lot of grinders.

You were actually the one who brought it up first. You claimed Europeans coming increased the talent level of the league, yet the fact is expansion would've diluted that influx of talent by an even larger amount.

The talent level around the league is higher because of science & money.

Did Lafleur work a second job?



It actually applies a lot more than Crosby. Though all players potentially benefit from science, it's known that Crosby is also exceptional in that category, as opposed to just being exceptional in talent. He is known to train a lot harder and to be a lot more diligent with his diet. He is exceptional in all areas, rather than just being exceptional in the talent category, which used to be enough.

Does it matter? There are tons of reasons players today are stronger and faster then players back then, working a second job is just one of many examples.

The definition of great is always something that is relative to your peers.

 

[DAChampion]

You were actually the one who brought it up first. You claimed Europeans coming increased the talent level of the league, yet the fact is expansion would've diluted that influx of talent by an even larger amount.

The talent level around the league is higher because of science & money.

Europeans and Americans have increased the skill level, yes, and I think that compensates for expansion. There are also better defensive systems and better goaltenders now.

I brought up the increased European presence, you then responded by bringing up league wide numbers, which reflect grinders, not skill players.

Does it matter? There are tons of reasons players today are stronger and faster then players back then, working a second job is just one of many examples.

The definition of great is always something that is relative to your peers.

It matters because we were comparing Lafleur to Crosby.

As for the definition of great, that's true in general but sometimes the talent pool increases rapidly, and greater eras tend to have more great men. You'll notice that "great men" may come from many periods of history, but they are actually not uniformly distributed in time and place. Some periods and places produce more great men.

And FYI this argument started because posters criticized Arizona for retiring Doan's jersey. They're the ones committing a category error by suggesting that other teams have the same standards as the Habs. It's plausible that no team is ever going to dominate as much as the 1970s Habs did, as the league is a lot more competitive now.

 

[Adam Michaels]

 

[LaP]

How the Hell did Ceci get 4.3 millions lol ?

 

[NotProkofievian]

Honestly drafting is not about misses. It's about hits. All scouts and drafting teams will miss a lot. And they all miss big names. What is important is the number and quality of hits you have in your resume imo.

Yes, and to have hits you need to have the hit ranked first on your list when your pick arrives. Not 2nd, not 3rd, 1st. In this way, the draft incurs massive amounts of truncation error on scouts. For example, just because a team drafted a really good player, doesn't mean that they had him ranked appropriately. However, if you rank a player appropriately, it increases the chance that you'll actually draft this player. Being that a single shift in ranking number can be the difference between a total bust, and a superstar: yes, misses do matter.