Proposal: OTT-PHI: Pinto for Bonk

[dumbdick]

To be completely fair and transparent about it though...that 20G - 35Pt "Rookie Season" was while playing de facto Top-6 Minutes with Top-6 linemates. Which contextually, is a bit less impressive.

There are also plenty of players who are better checkers and goal-scorers than playmakers who do settle in as 20G 30-40pt middle-sixers or just straight up 3rd line types. I don't think that's the likely outcome for Pinto, but it's not completely implausible that he'd stall out as something like that. Development isn't always linear. Scoring 20G as a rookie doesn't mean that he's going to score 5 more goals per year until he's a 40G scorer for instance. He's got a good enough shot that you can probably expect a little bit of further growth there, but without more growth as a playmaker, he's always going to have his production "capped" pretty firmly at a less than "Ideal Top-6" level. That's a big area of projection that remains for Pinto, and how you view his trajectory in that aspect is key to whether you think he's going to turn into a true Top-6C or plateau as more of a 3rd Line or Middle-6 guy.

Fair enough. I don't know Bonk at all so I won't even bother commenting on the trade value here.

I just think projecting a 20/35 rookie season into a long-term 40-45 point player is lowballing and not generally backed up by a lot of evidence.

Some guys go that route, but it's odd to call that shot here, especially for a leafs fan who probably doesn't know Pinto's game too well.

I think the sens brass know what this kid is, which is why it would take a lot to pry him out of ottawa. Time will tell, but I'm confident that this kid is going to be closer to a 1C than a 3C.

 

[Hale The Villain]

He scored 20 goals as a rookie coming off an entire lost sesson due to injury.

Do most rookies that score 20 goals top out at 40-45 points?

Is a 5-10 point improvement on rookie production a good-faith career projection?

How many viewings are you basing that on?

He scored 20 goals but only had 15 assists playing beside DeBrincat and Batherson almost all year.

That's not impressive production when his linemates each had almost twice as many points as he did.

I don't doubt his goal scoring but it was clear his playmaking and puckhandling was clearly not at a top 6 level, which makes me think he'll top out around 25G-25A-50P/82GP.

 

[dumbdick]

He scored 20 goals but only had 15 assists playing beside DeBrincat and Batherson almost all year.

That's not impressive production when his linemates each had almost twice as many points as he did.

I don't doubt his goal scoring but it was clear his playmaking and puckhandling was clearly not at a top 6 level, which makes me think he'll top out around 25G-25A-50P/82GP.

I disagree.

 

[Nevins]

Pinto has already proven that he is a top 9 player in the NHL. Bonk is a very good prospect but since he hasn't proven anything, Philadelphia should add a third round pick.

 

[JRichard]

Pinto has already proven that he is a top 9 player in the NHL. Bonk is a very good prospect but since he hasn't proven anything, Philadelphia should add a third round pick.

doesnt always follow that « logic ». Philly got the 2nd AND the proven player for prospect who wouldnt play for them.

a 3rd would not prevent a deal anyway.

 

[Nevins]

doesnt always follow that « logic ». Philly got the 2nd AND the proven player for prospect who wouldnt play for them.

a 3rd would not prevent a deal anyway.

Any exchange involves risk. Yes Pinto is an NHL player but a top 9 so far...Bonk is a first round pick (#22) and a right handed defenseman. He's the third highest point scorer in the OHL among defensemen (44 pts in 33 games). Let's say the chances of him becoming an NHL player are very high...but if you want to reduce the risk, what team could match? Pinto is not Cutter Gauthier and the Flyets will never get another Drysdale for Pinto.

 

[dumbdick]

Shane Pinto is not a 3rd line player. Watch him play.

In addition to this fairly remarkable scoring touch, he's also a top end defensive player. This is a rookie player coming off a serious injury.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Shane Pinto is not a 3rd line player. Watch him play.

He had 35 points in 82 games (0.43 PPG) last year playing with two 60-70P wingers.

That put him 226th among forwards in PPG (min 41GP) in 2022/23.

The other forwards who had 0.43 PPG last year were N.Foligno, K.Yamamoto, S.Steel and B.Tanev, are they top 6 guys?

Pinto absolutely has top 6 potential, but let's not pretend he's proven to be a top 6 forward at this stage.

 

[dumbdick]

He had 35 points in 82 games (0.43 PPG) last year playing with two 60-70P wingers.

That put him 226th among forwards in PPG (min 41GP) in 2022/23.

The other forwards who had 0.43 PPG last year were N.Foligno, K.Yamamoto, S.Steel and B.Tanev, are they top 6 guys?

Pinto absolutely has top 6 potential, but let's not pretend he's proven to be a top 6 forward at this stage.

Theres about 600 players in the league at any given time. Show me another bottom six player with a comparable goal highlight reel from their rookie season.

You're just being pissy because none of your fellow sens fans liked your proposal.

At UND he was right behind caufield for the hobey baker voting. He won both the MVP and the defensive player of the year in the NCHC.

He earned a 2C spot in his rookie NHL season and potted 20 goals.

He was 2nd in scoring on team USA at his WJHC, behind zegras but ahead of kaliyev, holtz, peterka, stutzle, etc.

He's a really really good player, especially on the defensive side of the puck.

Anybody who looks at those highlights and his body of work and sees a 3rd line player is out to lunch

 

[biturbo19]

Theres about 600 players in the league at any given time. Show me another bottom six player with a comparable goal highlight reel from their rookie season.

You're just being pissy because none of your fellow sens fans liked your proposal.

At UND he was right behind caufield for the hobey baker voting. He won both the MVP and the defensive player of the year in the NCHC.

He earned a 2C spot in his rookie NHL season and potted 20 goals.

He was 2nd in scoring on team USA at his WJHC, behind zegras but ahead of kaliyev, holtz, peterka, stutzle, etc.

He's a really really good player, especially on the defensive side of the puck.

Anybody who looks at those highlights and his body of work and sees a 3rd line player is out to lunch

Take a gander at say...Kasperi Kapanen's "goal highlight reel" from his first real full NHL season, if that's how we're evaluating players now. 20G 44pts and showed a lot of similar things to Pinto. It's not as standout as i think you're making it out to be.

There's definitely still upside with Pinto, but you also can't just assume that he's going to continue on a steep upward trajectory like that. A "goal-scoring" highlight reel isn't really addressing the big concern with Pinto's offensive upside either. How is he as a playmaker and puck distributor? What does his 15 Assist "highlight reel" look like? Because like it or not, being a true Top-6C requires a pretty high degree of passing and puck distributing ability, which Pinto has not shown at the NHL level as yet.


As for "earning" a #2C spot...that's kind of a mischaracterization of what happened. Norris spent basically the entire season injured, which plunked Pinto into a more or less "default" second line Center role because he was the only guy in house that even remotely fit the bill. And both Tiny Cat and Batherson had "down years" playing so much with Pinto as well.


All the NCAA accolades and amateur accomplishments are great. Pedigree like that is useful background. But then...Adam Gaudette recently won a Hobey Baker and well...he kind sucks as an NHLer. So until it's proven at the NHL level, it doesn't mean much. And because Pinto decided to create a big controversy around himself and get himself suspended for the year...he hasn't had the opportunity to even follow up that season with more this year. So we don't know which way the trendline is pointing.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Theres about 600 players in the league at any given time. Show me another bottom six player with a comparable goal highlight reel from their rookie season.

You're just being pissy because none of your fellow sens fans liked your proposal.

At UND he was right behind caufield for the hobey baker voting. He won both the MVP and the defensive player of the year in the NCHC.

He earned a 2C spot in his rookie NHL season and potted 20 goals.

He was 2nd in scoring on team USA at his WJHC, behind zegras but ahead of kaliyev, holtz, peterka, stutzle, etc.

He's a really really good player, especially on the defensive side of the puck.

Anybody who looks at those highlights and his body of work and sees a 3rd line player is out to lunch

No one is doubting Pinto's goal scoring ability. He's got a hard shot and a quality one-timer. It's his playmaking and puckhandling that is a concern, which isn't going to show in a goal highlight reel.

I don't know why you think a highlight video, WJC stats and NCAA trophy voting proves that Pinto is a top 6 forward right now. They speak to his potential but it doesn't mean he's proven to be anything more than a 3rd line C at this stage based on his play so far at the NHL level.

Not sure why you seem to view this as a controversial opinion.

 

[Sanderson]

Bonk is at least two or three years away from having a true impact in the NHL, if he ever gets there, which isn't a given even with very good junior numbers. That's just not going to cut it in the position Ottawa is in right now. What they need is someone who can make an impact right now, not trade someone who can help right now for someone who won't make the team in the near future.
Pinto does that. A youngish RD who has established himself, or an RD in his prime would also be helpful, Bonk is neither.

Value doesn't exist in an vacuum, you need to look at the positions the teams are in, and whether the move would be a good fit for the team in general. The Senators cannot afford to have yet another failed season after this one, so someone who can help right now and has potential for more is far more valuable to them than someone who is years away.

Under different circumstances a talented local prospect whose father played for the team for a long time could be of interest to a team, but this offer just isn't a good deal for the Senators at the current time.

 

[Boud]

Value is there but Ottawa doesn't make that trade at this point.

Need Pinto in the lineup more than Bonk who won't be here for another 2 years probably and then another year or so until he becomes comfortable at the NHL level.

Ottawa needs wins now and Pinto helps a lot more in that respect. He's already an impact player and put up 20 goals playing 2nd line minutes and tough matchups. I wouldn't be surprised if he takes a big step this year.

If Sens need to trade Chychrun (If he doesn't want to re-sign or a deal can't be reached) then I could see something around Bonk and Chych.

 

[Oscar The Grouch]

Bonk is at least two or three years away from having a true impact in the NHL, if he ever gets there, which isn't a given even with very good junior numbers. That's just not going to cut it in the position Ottawa is in right now. What they need is someone who can make an impact right now, not trade someone who can help right now for someone who won't make the team in the near future.
Pinto does that. A youngish RD who has established himself, or an RD in his prime would also be helpful, Bonk is neither.

Value doesn't exist in an vacuum, you need to look at the positions the teams are in, and whether the move would be a good fit for the team in general. The Senators cannot afford to have yet another failed season after this one, so someone who can help right now and has potential for more is far more valuable to them than someone who is years away.

Under different circumstances a talented local prospect whose father played for the team for a long time could be of interest to a team, but this offer just isn't a good deal for the Senators at the current time.

It's going to be better than what they actually get. Watch.

It's not about "fit". It's about maximizing the return. A tier 1 (below blue-chip), rare (RD) prospect + 1st is great value.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Bonk has similar upside to someone like Zub, but with a bit more offense.

Pinto is further along in development, but I don't know if he has more upside.

I'd trade a 40-50 point two-way 2nd line center for a 30-40 point two-way 2nd pairing RD, which I think is a fair projection for both players.

I also think you are completely missing his point here. Regardless of if their ceilings are similar the floor on Pinto is significantly higher than Bonk's

 

[Golden_Jet]

Terrible for Ottawa.

Luckily they would never do that trade,

 

[Golden_Jet]

No one is doubting Pinto's goal scoring ability. He's got a hard shot and a quality one-timer. It's his playmaking and puckhandling that is a concern, which isn't going to show in a goal highlight reel.

I don't know why you think a highlight video, WJC stats and NCAA trophy voting proves that Pinto is a top 6 forward right now. They speak to his potential but it doesn't mean he's proven to be anything more than a 3rd line C at this stage based on his play so far at the NHL level.

Not sure why you seem to view this as a controversial opinion.

And Bonk has proven even way less. He’s proven he can be good at junior. He may or may not be a third pairing or second pairing, and is a few years before we know the answer.


pinto wins offensive and defensive player of the year in his conference.
Philly would have to add, but it’s mute at this point.

 

[NyQuil]

Philly would have to add, but it’s mute at this point.

Moot.

 

[Cogburn]

So is Pinto still in the plans of the Senators? Or does Staios/the new owner want to distance themselves from him?

 

[TeamRenzo]

If you don't think Oliver Bonk has top 4 potential, I don't know what to tell you.

Having potential is a long way from actually being able to deliver. Pinto has scored 20 goals in the NHL, Bonk may never play a game in the NHL

 

[Golden_Jet]

So is Pinto still in the plans of the Senators? Or does Staios/the new owner want to distance themselves from him?

All along they’ve said, can’t wait to have him back, so I’m assuming in the plans.

 

[FerrisRox]

Bonk is a two-way right-handed defenseman with 44 points in 33 games in the OHL at 18.

Potential top 4 RD for a potential 2nd line C is a fair swap IMO.

I think Pinto is worth more than Bonk without question.

Pinto is a 6'2 centre who scored 20-goals as a rookie.

 

[GCK]

Bonk has similar upside to someone like Zub, but with a bit more offense.

Pinto is further along in development, but I don't know if he has more upside.

I'd trade a 40-50 point two-way 2nd line center for a 30-40 point two-way 2nd pairing RD, which I think is a fair projection for both players.

You are consistently about pushing out to the future. Keep the strength down the middle and overpay for a RD in free agency.

 

[JRichard]

Having potential is a long way from actually being able to deliver. Pinto has scored 20 goals in the NHL, Bonk may never play a game in the NHL

Sure looks like Bonk may never play a game in the NHL.
Maybe its because he is 19?
you must not be anywhere close to a prospect thread.

Bonk was picked 4 drafts after Pinto.
Brink picked 2 spots after Pinto is pacing exactly like Pinto:
SP 99 gp 43 pts
BB 48 gp 22 pts

 

[JRichard]

I think Pinto is worth more than Bonk without question.

Pinto is a 6'2 centre who scored 20-goals as a rookie.

Not sure about rookie criterias but he scored 20 at 23 yrs old.
he played 2 previous seasons including major injury and scored 1 in 17 gp
Drafted 2019.

he will be 24 one month into next season.