OTish - Detroit loses 25% of its population

[Melrose Munch]

Globalization, mechanization, unions and education have destroyed well-paying manufacturing jobs. There is no reason to pay some guy $60,000 a year to build sprockets here when a robot or guy in China can do it for pennies on the dollar. There's nothing sad about progress when ANYBODY can go to school.

"White flight" occurs because nobody wants to live in an area where you have a 50-50 chance of being mugged if you walk around after dark. People try to make it into the classic American racial BS, but it's really economics and common sense. There are just some places that don't have any money or stability and wind up full of drug dealers, prostitutes and thugs. Who wants to raise a family there?

"White flight" = area's economics went into the crapper, crime rises so you move down the street. In Detroit's case "down the street" just kept getting further and further away due to extremely poor city management. Atlanta and Detroit faced the exact same racial issues in the 60s yet moved in polar opposite directions. Why? Detroit's economy withered, Atlanta's flourished. Don't try to pin it on race- rehashing or blindly accepting the idea of "white flight" implies that all white people are racist and all black people are criminals. Just stupid.

IMO this is whitewashing. It was mostly that, manly because the jobs did not dissappear until years later.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Atlanta and Detroit are mostly completely different. The south is developing completely and urbanizing now. The North did that from 1850-1950. The south was mostly rural until the last 40 years. The north declined the as the south rose. Even now Chicago lost 250k this year and will be passed by Houston(city proper) and DC and Dallas(CSA) in 2030. Detroit is just now slowly changing to a service economy, something its contemporaries Chicago, Philadelphia and Boston did 25 years ago.

 

[Killion]

I know more people here in LA that are insane Wings, Pens and Bruins fans than I know Ducks or Kings fans.

Ya, thats an interesting side effect of the northerly decline & southerly migration. 30-90 years ago people moved to places like Michigan & Ohio for work from the south & southwest; now their descendants are returning and or those with deep roots in the northeast & midwest are having to move to the south, southwest & California in order to make a living, bringing with their love of hockey, the Hawks, Wings, Blue Jackets or wherever/whichever. Touchstones' to the past..... It surprises people who "dont get out much" to watch a Coyotes or Tampa game & see as many or more visiting teams jerseys in the stands. As original owner of the LA Kings, Jack Kent Cooke once noted, "Hockey is Canadas' game & their are 10's of 1000's of Canadians living in LA. Trouble is, none of them are buying tickets". I guess Im getting a little OT here, but thats been a problem for clubs in the south/ southwest for somtime now. Lots of hockey fans. Just none of them local.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The key for those markets is, and has always been, the passage of time. Joe Michigan might be a huge Wings fan, but Joey Jr. is going to be more interested in the local team. That's mainly important for the first 1-2 generations after expansion/relocation, but it'll be an ongoing phenomenon whenever and wherever population movement takes place.

Bringing this back to topic somewhat... don't expect the Wings to have huge road crowds in perpetuity. Given 20-30 years they'll age out a lot of their long distance fans.

 

[BamBamCam*]

Globalization, mechanization, unions and education have destroyed well-paying manufacturing jobs. There is no reason to pay some guy $60,000 a year to build sprockets here when a robot or guy in China can do it for pennies on the dollar. There's nothing sad about progress when ANYBODY can go to school.

"White flight" occurs because nobody wants to live in an area where you have a 50-50 chance of being mugged if you walk around after dark. People try to make it into the classic American racial BS, but it's really economics and common sense. There are just some places that don't have any money or stability and wind up full of drug dealers, prostitutes and thugs. Who wants to raise a family there?

"White flight" = area's economics went into the crapper, crime rises so you move down the street. In Detroit's case "down the street" just kept getting further and further away due to extremely poor city management. Atlanta and Detroit faced the exact same racial issues in the 60s yet moved in polar opposite directions. Why? Detroit's economy withered, Atlanta's flourished. Don't try to pin it on race- rehashing or blindly accepting the idea of "white flight" implies that all white people are racist and all black people are criminals. Just stupid.

This is an eye opening post and not the kind that makes you think.

 

[BamBamCam*]

Atlanta and Detroit are mostly completely different. The south is developing completely and urbanizing now. The North did that from 1850-1950. The south was mostly rural until the last 40 years. The north declined the as the south rose. Even now Chicago lost 250k this year and will be passed by Houston(city proper) and DC and Dallas(CSA) in 2030. Detroit is just now slowly changing to a service economy, something its contemporaries Chicago, Philadelphia and Boston did 25 years ago.

Good post and very close. Boston Philly Chi-town have turned to banking or financial cities but the point is there. I know what you mean by calling them service oriented cities, meaning the lower to middle income jobs have made the transition from manufacturing to service jobs. But these cities are still major financial centers to the US would be considered financial centers first. Hope I made sense.

 

[Moobles]

This thread can't seem to decide whether it wants to discuss white flight or Detroit's loss of city-limits population .

You have to take into account that most of the population that's moving and staying within the state are simply moving outside of the city-limits. Detroit's still got a massive metro area and much of its affluent population is just sitting outside the city-limits. I wouldn't also be shocked if Detroit made a 'come-back' within the next-20 years- not unlike Chicago and New York rebounded by broadening new industries in their cities. Cheap land in the downtown area just needs to be targeted for gentrification and people will slowly start creeping back.

In terms of the effect on the Red Wings I doubt you'll see much. Most Red Wings fans probably aren't from the city-limits, more the outlying regions- and with such strong hockey programs in Michigan (particularly at Ann Arbour) the problem isn't so much that their fanbase will collapse but attendance might not always stick to the top if the team goes far south in the standings.

To jump into the general talk about fans and migration 'southwards', I do think in the next generation there will be more fans who support teams where many people are relocating- but that support is going to be heavily contingent on local team success and marketability. Teams like Los Angeles, Anaheim, Carolina, Tampa Bay and Nashville are all I think, in good positions to soak up fans from migrating northerners who have a passion for hockey. However don't underestimate the effect of inheriting your fanbase from mom and dad , especially if the local team sucks. A more interesting, but unrelated topic that I hope comes up for discussion is the fact that so many NHL players are playing in American cities, that their kids are going to grow up Americans and if they play hockey- play for the U.S. This can only be good for the U.S. in the long-term but I don't know what effect it will have on Canada, if any.

 

[Brodie]

The inherited fandom is real, but as the connection to the original hometown weakens, so does the connection to the team. By the second generation (sons of the sons of southern migrants), there will be a significant drop off.

Also, Melrose Munch is making the mistake of equating population with success. Houston is not going to eclipse Chicago, period, but even if it did it would not be because Houston is booming while Chicago dies. Chicago is simply too expensive to grow at this point, much like the population of Manhattan. People are moving out of the city into suburban houses while newer people are finding better deals in the burbs. Chicago's city limits population has a large urbane, college educated, upper middle class component whereas Houston's growth largely comes from lower income groups and a massive Hispanic population.

 

[billycanuck]

Let's not forget about the Canadian city that is south of Detroit and has a population of 200,000 hockey loving fans, Windsor, Ontario.

In fact a few Wings live in Windsor during the season and when Detroit hosted the Super Bowl, all the celebs stayed in Windsor for safety and how close it was to downtown Detroit.

Would be interesting to find out how many people in Windsor have season tickets to, not only the Wings, but Tigers, Lions and Pistons.

 

[Fugu]

Let's not forget about the Canadian city that is south of Detroit and has a population of 200,000 hockey loving fans, Windsor, Ontario.

In fact a few Wings live in Windsor during the season and when Detroit hosted the Super Bowl, all the celebs stayed in Windsor for safety and how close it was to downtown Detroit.

Would be interesting to find out how many people in Windsor have season tickets to, not only the Wings, but Tigers, Lions and Pistons.

Come now, that's not true. There are a couple of opulent places in downtown Detroit, around the theater and casino district. The area is geographically small and you wouldn't wish to stray too far, but it does exist. Staying in Windsor also means you have to deal with a border crossing. Back in the old days, that wasn't a hassle, but during busy times, you can lose an hour sitting at the crossings.


Many Wings fans in Ontario too, btw, especially west of London. The Wings board here has several self-proclaimed Wings fans from Toronto too.

 

[billycanuck]

Come now, that's not true. There are a couple of opulent places in downtown Detroit, around the theater and casino district. The area is geographically small and you wouldn't wish to stray too far, but it does exist. Staying in Windsor also means you have to deal with a border crossing. Back in the old days, that wasn't a hassle, but during busy times, you can lose an hour sitting at the crossings.

Many Wings fans in Ontario too, btw, especially west of London. The Wings board here has several self-proclaimed Wings fans from Toronto too.

Alright, not all the celebs. I think Jimmy Kimmel stayed in Detroit.

You are correct though that the theater and casino area is decent. During the day downtown Detroit is OK to wander, but at night you do not want to take a wrong turn.

The boarder crossings can be a hassle, especially the bridge. But it isn't too bad when you can catch a city bus in downtown Windsor, cross over through the tunnel and get dropped off at Ford Field, Comerica Park, Joe Louis Arena, or Cobo Hall.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I have always been curious just how far the Wings fan reach in SW Ontario goes. Would Chatham-Kent still see a good % of Wings fans or is that already deep Leafs blue?

 

[tarheelhockey]

In fact a few Wings live in Windsor during the season and when Detroit hosted the Super Bowl, all the celebs stayed in Windsor for safety and how close it was to downtown Detroit.

From what I recall, it wasn't just the celebs who flocked to Windsor that weekend

 

[Fugu]

I have always been curious just how far the Wings fan reach in SW Ontario goes. Would Chatham-Kent still see a good % of Wings fans or is that already deep Leafs blue?

I remember reading recently that entire families are divided in their Wings vs Leafs loyalty as you move eastward from Windsor until you reach London. Chatham-Kent fell in that 50/50 divide region. Obviously the blue color deepens the closer you move towards TO, but the wingnuts do exist. Yzerman seems to have been a huge draw for one generation at least.

 

[DungeonK]

This is an eye opening post and not the kind that makes you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_flight

 

[mouser]

My mother's parents actually stayed in Detroit until they died. A lot of the white flight stuff was racism. It doesn't matter that they were proved right.

I think a significant portion of it was economic, especially in the 80's and 90's.

Seemed wrong to pay higher taxes to live within the Detroit city boundaries [2% city income tax on top of your state and federal income tax] to receive inferior public services and stagnating to declining property values.

 

[Brodie]

In fact a few Wings live in Windsor during the season and when Detroit hosted the Super Bowl, all the celebs stayed in Windsor for safety and how close it was to downtown Detroit.

None of this is true.

 

[XX]

I was born in Detroit and often go back, and even I will admit it is a terrible place. If they would just tear down every derelict building or re-purpose them then it would be a big improvement. Same goes for neighborhoods that are worthless and only breed crime.

Detroit has to seriously reinvent itself to stop the bleeding. Driving through there, at times, felt like a 3rd world country.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Good post and very close. Boston Philly Chi-town have turned to banking or financial cities but the point is there. I know what you mean by calling them service oriented cities, meaning the lower to middle income jobs have made the transition from manufacturing to service jobs. But these cities are still major financial centers to the US would be considered financial centers first. Hope I made sense.

I understand completely. I mean that as the 20th century moved on the blue collar jobs became less of the economy.

The inherited fandom is real, but as the connection to the original hometown weakens, so does the connection to the team. By the second generation (sons of the sons of southern migrants), there will be a significant drop off.

Also, Melrose Munch is making the mistake of equating population with success. Houston is not going to eclipse Chicago, period, but even if it did it would not be because Houston is booming while Chicago dies. Chicago is simply too expensive to grow at this point, much like the population of Manhattan. People are moving out of the city into suburban houses while newer people are finding better deals in the burbs. Chicago's city limits population has a large urbane, college educated, upper middle class component whereas Houston's growth largely comes from lower income groups and a massive Hispanic population.

IMO I have to disagree (slightly). 200k is a lot! Even NYC gained 100k from 2000. I think that like you said Chi has become more educated but also being a city of Homelessness and the uber rich is no way to sustain a society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_flight

Ok, this is happening in DC as well. But the point stand that cities like Atlanta and DC have not stopped growing at all and frankly only slowed down because of the recession. Lowering property and city taxes is fine but as long as the state has its taxes the city can only do so much.

None of this is true.

I doubt all the Wings live in the US. The Super Bowl thing I agree with you.

 

[Brodie]

considering the visa issues and the fact that suburban Detroit generally has much, much more to offer than Windsor I find it extremely unlikely that any Wings live across the border. Even Bob Probert, who was from Windsor and was frequently there during the season, maintained a home in Detroit.

Nothing against Windsor, but you just can't own a house like this there... they don't exist.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Yeah I'm pretty sure most of the Wings live out somewhere in the nicer towns of Oakland County. I know in the old days many lived in the Pointes, no idea if they still do, you'd think it's fairly practical if your job is in downtown.

In spite of Detroit's bad reputation there are some seriously wealthy - and very safe - places in the metro area.

Given that fact, I don't think someone who has to go to Detroit pretty much every day would want to put up with the hassle of crossing the border all the frickin time just to live in a Canadian city where as a resident he'd probably have to pay even higher taxes than in Michigan?

 

[Fugu]

None of the Red Wings live in Windsor during the season. The Swedes are all in Novi, Michigan, some are in Plymouth, and then up to Bloomfield Hills and surrounding area. Babcock is also in Novi, iirc. I thought I heard that Patrick Eaves might be out this way (Ann Arbor), but I'm not certain.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Im from Michigan and im actually moving BACK to Detroit from Philly in 3 weeks, I'm one of the crazy ones I guess. Detroit is shrinking, and they need to adapt appropiately by getting rid of all the dead wasted space and consolidating the city. Theres just too much sprawl and emptiness in the city now. I heard of possible programs of relocating people to be closer together because theres streets with 15 houses, and its only occupied by 1 or 2 families.

I think the tax breaks for filmmakers is also a good idea, and I heard they might put a cap on that, which would be a shame IMO, as Detroit needs to look at programs to attract youth. Cheap cost of living with incentives for creativity in the arts and technology industries I think would help them a lot.

Making an "arena area" would also be a good idea, Tigers, Pistons, Red Wings, Lions all within walking distance of eachother, just like how a lot of other cities do it.

 

[Brodie]

The film incentives cost the state hundreds of millions of dollars and pretty much the only benefit is some people in Ann Arbor getting to see George Clooney.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

The Ernst and Young report stated that Michigan film tax credit generated six dollars for every dollar spent for a total of $812 million dollars. Not to mention its really the only incentive out there for people to actually travel to Michigan and spend money, and money that isn't even film related. Hotels, food, etc.