OTish - Detroit loses 25% of its population

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by Dooman, Mar 28, 2011.

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  1. Dooman

    Dooman Registered User

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    Recently I saw a news article that Detroit has lost 25% of its population in the last decade. Its been in a huge huge decline. An unprecedented amount in 'modern' times. (New Orleans as an example lost 27%, which is the only comparable number, but that was due to natural disasters)

    My question is this, should Detroit become a mediocre/out of playoff team for a few years in a row, or have a management change that just isn't as effective as its current core. Would Detroit be feasible with a population that could dip as low as half a million people in the next decade?

    http://www.detnews.com/article/20110328/CENSUS/103280322/1408/local
     
  2. buffalowing88

    buffalowing88 Registered User

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    I think Detroit is too big of a brand and has too much of a winning reputation to ever be relocated or folded. The NFL has a franchise in Green Bay and the NBA, MLB, and the NFL also have franchises in Detroit that are less succesful than the Red Wings. It's in the leagues best interest to maintain tradition and letting the Wings relocate would be a black eye for everyone.
     
  3. Dooman

    Dooman Registered User

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    Well, its a question for those other leagues as well though. If a city loses 50% of its population in under two decades..... Well, thats a LOT of money leaving, especially when its generally the middle class/upper class that are moving. (Lower class doesn't move due to... y'know... being poor).

    Would they really be able to sustain a team? And what happens when the issue for a new arena comes up? (Which will inevitably happen)
     
  4. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

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    There are 4.4 million people in greater Detroit. The city-limits population is not really informative as to the true scope of the city. Detroit can and will easily support the Red Wings for the foreseeable future.

    That said, I do believe that we're going to see some people come off their high horses in regard to attendance.
     
  5. Alex Jones

    Alex Jones BIG BOWL 'A CHILI!!

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    The city of detroit has been losing people for years, but the suburbs are perfectly fine.
     
  6. billycanuck

    billycanuck Registered User

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    Has anyone been to Detroit lately? I was there a year ago, and downtown is just a shell. My family from BC couldn't believe how much of a ghost town it was. No shock that the city is losing population when there is really nothing there to keep people!

    But with all those empty buildings in downtown, there are plenty of spaces to build Joe Louis Arena II.
     
  7. ColdSteel2

    ColdSteel2 Registered User

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    Can't move the Wings, but their owner is more than welcome to spend at the cap floor if business slows down. Find takers for Zetts, Dats and Franzen. I encourage him too; that's just good business if you ask me.
    Go Hawks!
     
  8. TheMoreYouKnow

    TheMoreYouKnow Registered User

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    Detroit's been a dying city since the late 60s. Detroit actually has made at least a token effort to improve downtown though, there's probably more to do there now than 20 years ago.

    But it's a reality that if not for the nostalgia factor you could probably take the Detroit out of the Wings full name and just call them the Southeast Michigan Red Wings and it'd be a more accurate reflection of what drives the Wings franchise. If I recall correctly they have a team store in the Joe and the other one is in Troy about 10 miles deep into Oakland County, that says it all.
     
  9. LadyStanley

    LadyStanley RIP Fugu

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  10. Brodie

    Brodie Marxist-Harbaughist

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    well, nobody in the area would identify with the term "Southeastern Michigan", but that's besides the point. It's a buzzword that's gained credence in the past decade because people in Ann Arbor and Livingston County rejected the association with "Metro Detroit"... but I don't think it has much traction amongst the actual population, most of us consider ourselves to be from "Detroit".

    Downtown Detroit would be mostly fine if they could lure some company's back down there (which they have... Compuware and Quicken being the major ones)... it's mostly empty. The truly scary/depressing areas are deep into the city. Suburban Detroit is pretty much going nowhere, this is a non-issue for the sports franchises
     
  11. TheMoreYouKnow

    TheMoreYouKnow Registered User

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    I hope you realize it wasn't a serious suggestion. It was to make a broader point about the Wings fan base being mostly not from the city. And I realize most suburbanites would consider themselves from Detroit even if they haven't been to the city in a decade, which is the reason why in spite of some efforts by some cities there's not a major center in the suburbs to take Detroit's place.
     
  12. Melrose Munch

    Melrose Munch Registered User

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    The east and westside are the crime areas, correct?
     
  13. Fugu

    Fugu Guest

    The city of Detroit has been apocalyptic since the 1970's.


    I have no idea why we have to keep repeating this, but the straw that stirs this particular drink is the wealth in the surrounding counties (Oakland, Macomb, Washtenaw, and Livingston). Detroit city is in Wayne County, and it's probably the poorest of this particular batch.

    Altogether though we're looking at nearly 5 million people.

    Oh, and the Red Wings players do not live in the city of Detroit. Ilitch does not live in the city. The GM does not live in the city. The majority of the fans do not live in the city.

    It's a sad reality that reflects poorly on this country's history of white flight and decline in abundant and well-paying manufacturing jobs.
     
  14. Melrose Munch

    Melrose Munch Registered User

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    This will continue to happend every 10 years until it bottoms out. I think it will end for the D at 500k.
     
  15. jumptheshark

    jumptheshark Rebooting myself Sponsor

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    this is the third time in three years that this discussion has come up

    while detroit city has gone down--the berbs have gone up
     
  16. Brodie

    Brodie Marxist-Harbaughist

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    to make Fugu's point even more clear: if you remove Detroit from the rest of Wayne County, every single county in Metro Detroit grew since 2000.
     
  17. MountainHawk

    MountainHawk Registered User

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    Did Metro Detroit as a whole grow tho?

    I get that most of the Detroit proper decrease is middle class flight to the suburbs, but did the region grow?
     
  18. Fugu

    Fugu Guest


    The state lost 0.6% of its population, the only US state with losses. That's about 55K people.

    Here's a breakdown by county. Much of the loss seems to be in the upper peninsula, and the thumb region.

    http://2010.census.gov/2010census/data/

    With the exception of Wayne County, all the other bordering counties did grow during the 2000-2010 period.
     
  19. DungeonK

    DungeonK Love Thy Neighbor

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    Globalization, mechanization, unions and education have destroyed well-paying manufacturing jobs. There is no reason to pay some guy $60,000 a year to build sprockets here when a robot or guy in China can do it for pennies on the dollar. There's nothing sad about progress when ANYBODY can go to school.

    "White flight" occurs because nobody wants to live in an area where you have a 50-50 chance of being mugged if you walk around after dark. People try to make it into the classic American racial BS, but it's really economics and common sense. There are just some places that don't have any money or stability and wind up full of drug dealers, prostitutes and thugs. Who wants to raise a family there?

    "White flight" = area's economics went into the crapper, crime rises so you move down the street. In Detroit's case "down the street" just kept getting further and further away due to extremely poor city management. Atlanta and Detroit faced the exact same racial issues in the 60s yet moved in polar opposite directions. Why? Detroit's economy withered, Atlanta's flourished. Don't try to pin it on race- rehashing or blindly accepting the idea of "white flight" implies that all white people are racist and all black people are criminals. Just stupid.
     
  20. Blackhawkswincup

    Blackhawkswincup RIP Fugu

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    Atlanta didn't have the race riots that destroyed much of Detroit in 60's

    And Whiteflight is exactly what happened in Detroit (Southside of Chicago as well, My city and suburbs as well)

    Whites fled out of racist ideas about the black community.

    It is reality
     
  21. Fugu

    Fugu Guest

    Globalization is an interesting buzz word that economist coined and now everyone has picked up on it.

    What we see today, which is a redistribution of wealth (economic definition of wealth) from the developed/advanced countries to those that are developing.

    The ideal that globalization represents--- everyone doing that which they do best or most efficiently and thus having pure competition --- is not what we have in the world today. Sorry to burst your bubble.

    China will only have an advantage until it catches up. Back in the 1960's, everything was 'Made in Japan' and many considered it to be of low quality. That disparity didn't last long, although Japan does have far fewer people.

    In fact, what you see happening is company's profiting off the gap that exists between advanced and underdeveloped countries. The advanced countries' societies claim they value clean air/water, worker rights and protection, health insurance, food safety, the best medical conditions for those who can pay and/or work, and so forth. These costs are passed on to the companies that operate here. The advanced society's are talking out of both ends because they also want cheap products and unlimited choices. Oh, and cheap energy.

    Sorry, but real income in this country is declining. Education has nothing to do with it. I remember 20 yrs ago, the finance and service sectors were going to save our way of life. Until the banks started moving that offshore too.

    Point being, we do not have barrier-free flow of people/labor, goods, services or even capital. Especially people. Until and unless that happens, the only thing you're going to see flowing is money, and unfortunately for this country, more of that is in the outward than the inward direction.
    White flight started in the 1960's ( and maybe '50's in some areas). I'm old enough to remember the civil unrest of the late 60's and 70's. No one wants to live in depressed areas, but the people who "can" leave, do leave, regardless of skin color. Or are you going to say that minority populations could have moved about freely and had equal access to jobs in the 1960's?


    I have no idea how you concluded that is my position on the matter. There was a social phenomenon called white flight that has been studiously chronicled in the history annals of this country. You are the only one jumping to that conclusion.

    Also, you may wish to revisit when Atlanta and south started rising, economically. Juxtaposed against all that is the Oil embargo, US dollar being moved off the gold standard, increasing international competition for the auto industry (1980's), increasing cost of oil, regulation of all sorts of things (EPA came into being when exactly??), and so on.

    This isn't a problem that is explained in a few paragraphs.
     
  22. TheMoreYouKnow

    TheMoreYouKnow Registered User

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    Doubtlessly, there was racism but there was also the reality of Detroit crime and squalor. I mean those who moved out in the 70s haven't exactly been proven wrong in their decision ever since. I would have moved too and I challenge anyone to say with a straight face they'd still be in Detroit if they could get out. It's no coincidence that the blacks who could leave left too.
     
  23. Brodie

    Brodie Marxist-Harbaughist

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    My mother's parents actually stayed in Detroit until they died. A lot of the white flight stuff was racism. It doesn't matter that they were proved right.
     
  24. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    Thats for sure. White & black flight to the suburbs since the recession of 1958 really. The in-flux of people from the south from the 20's to the 50's looking for higher paying jobs in the promised land clashing head-on with what had been a predominantly white work force attempting to unionize, Ford, most of the mfgs' & the rest only to happy to hire people from other states for a lot less money & no paid benefits, giving rise to a lot of racial strife in the city. Along comes automation, jobs become redundant, more layoffs. Nader's Raiders. More recessions. Oil Crisis. Loss of consumer confidence in US built automobiles. On & on.......

    Today, over 1/3rd of the city lies abandoned, very much a post apocalyptic & haunted landscape. Really mindblowing. Unemployment is over 30%; average house price is app. $7500, some available for a few hundred. All that being said, I think Motowns' renaissance could be at hand, with several interesting developments by noted architects & designers (Mies van der Rohe' amongst others) springing up along with the slow but gradual growth of companies locating to the city as costs to buy or lease properties are pretty attractive to put it mildly. If places like Brooklyn & Miami can shake it off, pretty sure Wayne County & Detroit wont have a problem getting there either. Smaller & leaner for sure, but slowly, gentrification is creeping its way in amongst the cracks & cobwebs, bringing with it the promise of a new day & culture.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2011
  25. JacketsFanWest

    JacketsFanWest Registered User

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    How I think this affects hockey is how there's been a trend of people moving out of the "rust belt" due to lack of job opportunities to states like Arizona, Georgia, North Carolina and Texas.

    There's just not the jobs in states like Michigan, so when people get out of high school or college, they have to move elsewhere. There's not enough jobs and no desire to stay in decaying cities like Detroit (or Toledo to the south, which is having a similar population decline).

    But they've grown up watching hockey and move on to other states.

    With Center Ice, fans can keep watching their old hometown team, whether they're good or not. And local games are blacked out.

    Rooting for the home town team is a way of staying connected to your home town. And the NHL is making it far easier to do that than it is to watch a local team. I have a basic cable package and cannot watch the Kings, Ducks or Sharks. But I watch every Jackets game. I know more people here in LA that are insane Wings, Pens and Bruins fans than I know Ducks or Kings fans.
     

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