OTish - Detroit loses 25% of its population

[Winger98]

The film incentives cost the state hundreds of millions of dollars and pretty much the only benefit is some people in Ann Arbor getting to see George Clooney.

The costs to the state have been slapped back and forth by people on both sides of the fence. I think it had a positive effect on the state, though, by getting shows/movies made there that cast the place in a better light. I doubt Detroit 187 gets made without that tax credit. It put a good face on the city, and at least one of the stars pimped the place tirelessly on her twitter while also getting involved through setting up a local charity to get winter gloves for kids.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

It's like trying to put a five alarm fire out by throwing a rather expensive glass of Perrier water on it.

Michigan needs to become a business-friendly and taxpayer-friendly state, drop its reliance on unionized manufacturing jobs, utilize its great educational and scientific institutions to modernize its economy. No way around it.

 

[BamBamCam*]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_flight

You miss understand me, I could care less about white flight or whatever name you want to use. I personally will not get into a battle over such polarizing comments that unions and education are ruining the economy. It's too Rush Limbaugh type of thinking for me.

 

[Brodie]

yeah, it got a lowly rated TV series partially made here. That'll make all the problems go away. The film credit is a pretty Hello Kitty bandaid being placed on an amputated leg, just like the casinos before it. It makes everyone feel all warm and fuzzy when that guy from The Sopranos says "coney" on TV and it's exciting to know people who have seen Demi Moore hanging around and everything... but it's not actually doing anything at all to cut the deficit and the number of jobs it creates are really negligible And what happens when the Canadian dollar takes a bit of a tumble? All of those film studios people have thrown up will be SOL.

The Ernst and Young report stated that Michigan film tax credit generated six dollars for every dollar spent for a total of $812 million dollars. Not to mention its really the only incentive out there for people to actually travel to Michigan and spend money, and money that isn't even film related. Hotels, food, etc.

You have to believe the Ernst and Young report was totally accurate in spite of how radically it differed from the state senate's own report on them last year. Funny how the Ernst and Young study was commissioned, not by a government agency, but by the tourism bureau who has the most to lose if the incentives are cut...

I'd be fine with the film incentives if this state wasn't in a total state of disarray. It's a shame the government has decided to play the usual left-right games so far instead of doing what they promised: finding a way to take our dependence on the auto industry off life support and find new industries to turn this area around. To me that's a lot more pressing than making people think Detroit is nicer through some TV shows.

 

[Fugu]

I guess the real question is whether or not local sponsors are still spending on the Wings. I know there have been changes in the STH base and the waiting list has diminished since the lockout. Last I heard, there were 12,000 STH's, down from about a peak of 17,000 pre-lockout.

Suite sales took a bit of hit when the recession hit. Not sure how much that has rebounded.

 

[billycanuck]

While I will admit that I was fed some BS from my fellow Windsorites regarding Wings residing there (although I am sure some have lived there in the past). I am not wrong about the celebs crashing in Windsor. John Travolta, Ben Affleck (Casino), Jessica Alba (Casino), Paris Hilton, Cast of OC, Matt Damon (didn't stay in Windsor, but was at Casino), Will Ferrell (saw him at the mall), The Rolling Stones (rented whole floor at Casino).... I could go on, were in Windsor for the Super Bowl. Yes, not all of the celebs (exaggeration, apologies)

One of my frequent clubs, The Beach, was rented out to (the owner said this) Jay-Z, but I think it was Paris Hilton. Jenna Jameson also rented a club and had a big bash.

But can you blame them for coming to Windsor? Prostitution is legal (well, you can pay for an escort and what happens behind doors is none of the police's business), strippers go full monty, massage parlors are legal (rub n' tugs), and drinking age is 19.

However, when you look at the the Windsor area you can't help but notice that un-employment rate is very high (9.6%, second in Canada). Windsor also has the highest cancer rates in Canada.

So when looking at the Red Wings, it is important to look at the southern Ontario's region too as that has a large affect on STH's and corporate sponsorships.

Would the Red Wings benefit from building a new rink in the suburbs where it seems the population is relocating?

 

[IceAce]

^that would seem to be counter to what's been going on the last decade or so with pro sports in the City, with the Tigers building Comerica Park downtown, the Lions finally moving back to the City after 25+ years in Pontiac, as well as the talk of Illitch moving the Pistons out of Auburn Hills and back to an arena in the City if he's ever able to buy them.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

yeah, it got a lowly rated TV series partially made here. That'll make all the problems go away. The film credit is a pretty Hello Kitty bandaid being placed on an amputated leg, just like the casinos before it. It makes everyone feel all warm and fuzzy when that guy from The Sopranos says "coney" on TV and it's exciting to know people who have seen Demi Moore hanging around and everything... but it's not actually doing anything at all to cut the deficit and the number of jobs it creates are really negligible And what happens when the Canadian dollar takes a bit of a tumble? All of those film studios people have thrown up will be SOL.



You have to believe the Ernst and Young report was totally accurate in spite of how radically it differed from the state senate's own report on them last year. Funny how the Ernst and Young study was commissioned, not by a government agency, but by the tourism bureau who has the most to lose if the incentives are cut...

I'd be fine with the film incentives if this state wasn't in a total state of disarray. It's a shame the government has decided to play the usual left-right games so far instead of doing what they promised: finding a way to take our dependence on the auto industry off life support and find new industries to turn this area around. To me that's a lot more pressing than making people think Detroit is nicer through some TV shows.

My own opinion of course of what I'd like to see with the city, but besides the film thing, I think Detroit needs to try and re-create themselves into something more unique that maybe differentiates themselves from other midwest cities. The film tax credit does that, and they should focus on getting more creative people into the city when it comes to the arts as well.

Another thing I think they should focus on and try to become a leader of is Green technology. I mean it can be linked hand in hand with the automotive world as well since thats a huge part of it now. Become the greenest city in the midwest, and get those kind of company's out there and become an industry leader when it comes to green and alternative energy.

Im no expert though I will admit that, its just thoughts Ive always had that the city should do. People look at Detroit as bleak, but you can look at it in a positive light too that its basically rock bottom there, its pretty exciting when you think about it that you can basically rebuild an entire city from scratch if you want to.

 

[billycanuck]

My own opinion of course of what I'd like to see with the city, but besides the film thing, I think Detroit needs to try and re-create themselves into something more unique that maybe differentiates themselves from other midwest cities. The film tax credit does that, and they should focus on getting more creative people into the city when it comes to the arts as well.

Another thing I think they should focus on and try to become a leader of is Green technology. I mean it can be linked hand in hand with the automotive world as well since thats a huge part of it now. Become the greenest city in the midwest, and get those kind of company's out there and become an industry leader when it comes to green and alternative energy.

Im no expert though I will admit that, its just thoughts Ive always had that the city should do. People look at Detroit as bleak, but you can look at it in a positive light too that its basically rock bottom there, its pretty exciting when you think about it that you can basically rebuild an entire city from scratch if you want to.

Coincidence? This was in the Windsor Star today:

The domestic content rules of Ontario's Green Energy Act, heavy lobbying and other enticements have helped lure six major wind and solar manufacturers to set up plants in the Windsor region, though the Solar Source Corporation factory slated for construction on airport land is currently on hold. A seventh player -a German manufacturer of solar panels -is expected to announce soon it will be opening a factory in Windsor this summer.

Read more: http://www.windsorstar.com/technolo...indsor+Essex/4525885/story.html#ixzz1I6UPvp00

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Green city, green energy, it's hardly a unique idea, it's in fact the new fad. Every tinpot city has some council statement somewhere saying that's what they should do. Pretty sure Michigan already does have some sort of state program to support that as well.

Really, though besides the automakers and their suppliers, what does Michigan have in industry? You have a lot of food and retail businesses (Meijer, Kellogg, Spartan Stores, Domino's, Little Caesar's etc.) which are fine but not enough to drive the economy, then you have Dow Chemicals, one of the world's biggest chemical companies, Whirlpool making home appliances. Other companies like HP, Bosch, various banks, General Dynamics and Delta Airlines etc. all have a presence in Michigan.

It's pretty obvious that the strength lies in the technological and engineering field. Maybe the issue isn't so much finding a new industry but making the strengths work better by figuring out why new jobs in those industries tend to not be created in Michigan but in other places instead and then figure out a way to be more attractive to people who want to create jobs.

 

[DungeonK]

You miss understand me, I could care less about white flight or whatever name you want to use. I personally will not get into a battle over such polarizing comments that unions and education are ruining the economy. It's too Rush Limbaugh type of thinking for me.

The UAW contributed greatly to devastating Detroit's manufacturing industry when it refused to concede GM's insane benefits package all those years until the brink of bankruptcy. The benefits made sense when they were originally instated, but wound up becoming waaaaay too big of a burden when GM became the largest employer in the US. Education is doing its part as well- if you get a 4 year college degree you're probably overqualified for turning a wrench in one direction all day.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Green city, green energy, it's hardly a unique idea, it's in fact the new fad. Every tinpot city has some council statement somewhere saying that's what they should do. Pretty sure Michigan already does have some sort of state program to support that as well.

Really, though besides the automakers and their suppliers, what does Michigan have in industry? You have a lot of food and retail businesses (Meijer, Kellogg, Spartan Stores, Domino's, Little Caesar's etc.) which are fine but not enough to drive the economy, then you have Dow Chemicals, one of the world's biggest chemical companies, Whirlpool making home appliances. Other companies like HP, Bosch, various banks, General Dynamics and Delta Airlines etc. all have a presence in Michigan.

It's pretty obvious that the strength lies in the technological and engineering field. Maybe the issue isn't so much finding a new industry but making the strengths work better by figuring out why new jobs in those industries tend to not be created in Michigan but in other places instead and then figure out a way to be more attractive to people who want to create jobs.

Theres a difference between saying its something you should do, and actually doing it though. I'd just love to see a more west coast culture and business attitude in Michigan, which would make it one of the more unique midwest cities in the US, and possibly more attractive than its midwest competition.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Theres a difference between saying its something you should do, and actually doing it though. I'd just love to see a more west coast culture and business attitude in Michigan, which would make it one of the more unique midwest cities in the US, and possibly more attractive than its midwest competition.

Unless you exchange Michigan's population with that of Northern California, I don't see much chance of that. Maybe a more realistic chance is to use Midwestern as a positive tag with the characteristics hard work, respectability and reliability associated with it. Something tells me that's stuff people are going to miss a lot 10-20 years down the road.

 

[mouser]

The UAW contributed greatly to devastating Detroit's manufacturing industry when it refused to concede GM's insane benefits package all those years until the brink of bankruptcy. The benefits made sense when they were originally instated, but wound up becoming waaaaay too big of a burden when GM became the largest employer in the US. Education is doing its part as well- if you get a 4 year college degree you're probably overqualified for turning a wrench in one direction all day.

Both the UAW and GM leadership were complicit in how the benefits issues developed and ultimately became a key contributor to GM's descent into bankruptcy. Starting back in the 1950's a pattern began of the unions and leadership negotiating deals with below average nominal pay scale raises, but significant increases in deferred pension benefits.

Under the accounting rules at the time GM didn't need to account for these accruing liabilities in their earnings, effectively creating an artificial rise in company profits for decades. It eventually bit them when the deferred costs came home to roost, not just in actual expenses but in updates to GAAP accounting requiring companies to account for deferred liabilities like pensions and new laws on pension program funding that went into effect in the late 90's and early 00's.

 

[Franck]

I'm always amazed when I see pictures of Detroit. There seems to be so many large, beautiful houses from the late 19th and early 20th century that stand abandoned and in decay when in most of Europe that type of house would likely cost millions.

Detroit seems like a really interesting city, would love to visit it someday, even if my dad who is in the automotive industry and has been there a few times doesn't think too highly of it.

 

[Confucius]

I'm always amazed when I see pictures of Detroit. There seems to be so many large, beautiful houses from the late 19th and early 20th century that stand abandoned and in decay when in most of Europe that type of house would likely cost millions.

Detroit seems like a really interesting city, would love to visit it someday, even if my dad who is in the automotive industry and has been there a few times doesn't think too highly of it.

Some if not most of those old homes looked fantastic before the decay set in. A couple remind me of small castles. Really eye opening as to what can happen.

 

[Brodie]

the nicest houses in Detroit are still lived in by rich people on the northeast side of the city. Everything else was just nice Queen Anne and Victorian style housing common in its day... Detroit was a capital for architecture in the pre-war years, some truly phenomenal stuff downtown.

The course the city should take has already been brought up by the mayor's office... tear down the entire outer edges of the city and move people inward then turn the former neighborhoods into green space and urban farms. Build the winery on Belle Isle. If Detroit were JUST downtown and a handful of other neighborhoods, it would be so much easier to turn around, not to mention police. Detroit is the size of Boston, Manhattan and San Francisco combined, downsizing is absolutely the difference between "AHHH DETROIT" and "Oh, Detroit"

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

They used to call Detroit the Paris of the Midwest, you can still see some remnants of that. But the unfortunate reality of the situation is that Detroit started going ugly before it started decaying for real, a lot of the old city was destroyed because people back in the 50s stupidly thought the future is concrete blocs and massive highways with no walking person in sight.

 

[Melrose Munch]

The UAW contributed greatly to devastating Detroit's manufacturing industry when it refused to concede GM's insane benefits package all those years until the brink of bankruptcy. The benefits made sense when they were originally instated, but wound up becoming waaaaay too big of a burden when GM became the largest employer in the US. Education is doing its part as well- if you get a 4 year college degree you're probably overqualified for turning a wrench in one direction all day.

Fair enough.

This country decided that until recently that healthcare was to be run by private companies and employers. What happened to GM was because they had to pay for everything like you said. It was bound to happen at some point.So why not remove those cost from the in the first place.

 

[Franck]

The course the city should take has already been brought up by the mayor's office... tear down the entire outer edges of the city and move people inward then turn the former neighborhoods into green space and urban farms. Build the winery on Belle Isle. If Detroit were JUST downtown and a handful of other neighborhoods, it would be so much easier to turn around, not to mention police. Detroit is the size of Boston, Manhattan and San Francisco combined, downsizing is absolutely the difference between "AHHH DETROIT" and "Oh, Detroit"

Isn't the problem with that plan that legally tearing down entire neighbourhoods safely is an incredibly expensive procedure and that many of these areas would need to be decontaminated before they would be able to be used for other purposes, something that can be even more expensive.

 

[Fugu]

Fair enough.

This country decided that until recently that healthcare was to be run by private companies and employers. What happened to GM was because they had to pay for everything like you said. It was bound to happen at some point.So why not remove those cost from the in the first place.

Exactly my point with the concept of globalization. The majority of developed and developing countries remove this cost from employers (among other things). It is not a level playing field beyond simple things like employee wages. One must also point the "blame" at the cost of healthcare here too. I suffered an injury on a business trip to Singapore about 10 yrs ago. I was hospitalized for 5 days (they could have released me after 1-2, but they wanted to be sure). I had all the routine diagnostics: fluids, CAT scan, MRI, PT assessment, etc. I paid my bill with my Amex for a whopping total of $2700. I was very impressed with the facility and level of care/physicians. Hmmm.


See, this does have something to do with hockey since I mentioned "a level playing field" in the paragraph.

 

[Fugu]

Isn't the problem with that plan that legally tearing down entire neighbourhoods safely is an incredibly expensive procedure and that many of these areas would need to be decontaminated before they would be able to be used for other purposes, something that can be even more expensive.

I know Brodie can address this issue quite well, but it's a bit complex. Many of the building actually had owners. They disappeared. No one paid property taxes, so these properties can be (or were) claimed at auction.

I think you have to have some big plan and then accumulate the land and properties in order to demolish and clean it up. That would take a rather large initiative. Without some idea that there would be a payback, no one is willing to spend that money.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Exactly my point with the concept of globalization. The majority of developed and developing countries remove this cost from employers (among other things). It is not a level playing field beyond simple things like employee wages. One must also point the "blame" at the cost of healthcare here too. I suffered an injury on a business trip to Singapore about 10 yrs ago. I was hospitalized for 5 days (they could have released me after 1-2, but they wanted to be sure). I had all the routine diagnostics: fluids, CAT scan, MRI, PT assessment, etc. I paid my bill with my Amex for a whopping total of $2700. I was very impressed with the facility and level of care/physicians. Hmmm.


See, this does have something to do with hockey since I mentioned "a level playing field" in the paragraph.

This actually affects hockey greatly IMO.

To see the Wings leave the city would be awful on so many points.

But Auburn Hills is very nice


~~~~~~~~~~

Healthcare and payrol are rising cost and they have just been too much in the Midwestern States. We can lower taxes all day but until health costs come under control, It will be hard to get companies to leave Houston and Dallas.

 

[Motown Beatdown]

Isn't the problem with that plan that legally tearing down entire neighbourhoods safely is an incredibly expensive procedure and that many of these areas would need to be decontaminated before they would be able to be used for other purposes, something that can be even more expensive.

Asbestos is the problem now. You just cant go tear down there old houses because of EPA regulations due to asbestos clean up costs.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2010/04/downsizing_delay_detroit_halts.html

Michigan environmental officials say Detroit's effort to demolish 3,000 decaying homes and buildings violates state and federal laws.

City officials say they've halted the project, under which just one house has been razed, until they can address the Department of Natural Resources and Environment's concerns at a Tuesday meeting.

The DNRE accuses the city of ignoring regulations that require the removal of asbestos, a carcinogenic fiber commonly found in many old Detroit homes, before starting to tear them down. DNRE spokesman Robert McCann says the city also failed to notify the state of its demolition plans, as required by law.

City officials tell the Detroit Free Press they weren't aware the program was violating federal regulations.

The city this year has torn down some houses in danger of collapsing.

 

[Brodie]

They used to call Detroit the Paris of the Midwest, you can still see some remnants of that. But the unfortunate reality of the situation is that Detroit started going ugly before it started decaying for real, a lot of the old city was destroyed because people back in the 50s stupidly thought the future is concrete blocs and massive highways with no walking person in sight.

Not to mention the complete wasting of the riverfront. The biggest thing I envy about about Windsor is how nicely kept the riverfront is.

I know Brodie can address this issue quite well, but it's a bit complex. Many of the building actually had owners. They disappeared. No one paid property taxes, so these properties can be (or were) claimed at auction.

Eminent domain?

The contamination is a huge issue, unfortunately. It's a shame because it made so much sense