Other Chicago & General Sports Thread LXIV: Cactus League

[IU Hawks fan]

Will Manny sign somewhere by the time I see the SOX in Tempe on March 8th?

 

[ndgt10]

Will the Sox get a whale?

 

[hawksrule]

Tim Duncan wasn't just a NBA top 10 player. He's a top 10 all time NBA player. Also calling Tony Parker a very good complimentary player is a disservice to him. He's a borderline Hall of Fame player. Then as Duncan slowed down they happened into Kawhi Leonard who is one of the best players in the game.

Even that’s understating it. Tony Parker is a legit hof. And Ginobili was a sensational player.

 

[Sarava]

Bryce Harper replied to an Instagram post by a Phillies player this morning.
With rumors that he has settled on a team, it makes you wonder if they landed him.

 

[HeisenBaez]

Bryce Harper replied to an Instagram post by a Phillies player this morning.
With rumors that he has settled on a team, it makes you wonder if they landed him.

Probably Harper just trolling.

 

[Malagahawks]

It looks like a sign of the times with the big whales still out there and Spring training about to begin. Some serious changes need to be made to the next CBA.

 

[TheSting]

It looks like a sign of the times with the big whales still out there and Spring training about to begin. Some serious changes need to be made to the next CBA.

what serious changes? The White Sox offered 7 years, 175 million to Machado a month ago did they not? Don't see nothing wrong with the system when the "big whales" are just sitting out in the hopes of a bidding war.

 

[Sarava]

what serious changes? The White Sox offered 7 years, 175 million to Machado a month ago did they not? Don't see nothing wrong with the system when the "big whales" are just sitting out in the hopes of a bidding war.

It's hard to know what's true and what's not true. Personally I suspect the Sox reported offer of 8 years at 240-250 mil is probably closer to the real offer they made. Reportedly Manny wants 300 mil and is holding out for that.

So yea, the whales not signing is probably on the whales more than on the clubs.

The real problem might be the rest of the free agents. It's said there are close to 100 free agents. Obviously some of them are guys who's careers are over or should be over. But even if that's half of them (not likely) - that's 50 guys still jobless and spring training is already starting. This is unheard of.

There's been talk of little interest and few and far between offers for these guys. And then when offers come, they are the same offer from all teams. The whole thing smells like nasty collusion. Why are owners doing this while revenues are going through the roof? Only they can answer this.

There's going to be an ugly strike sometime in the next few years. Possibly before the CBA is over.

 

[ColdSteel2]

It's hard to know what's true and what's not true. Personally I suspect the Sox reported offer of 8 years at 240-250 mil is probably closer to the real offer they made. Reportedly Manny wants 300 mil and is holding out for that.

So yea, the whales not signing is probably on the whales more than on the clubs.

The real problem might be the rest of the free agents. It's said there are close to 100 free agents. Obviously some of them are guys who's careers are over or should be over. But even if that's half of them (not likely) - that's 50 guys still jobless and spring training is already starting. This is unheard of.

There's been talk of little interest and few and far between offers for these guys. And then when offers come, they are the same offer from all teams. The whole thing smells like nasty collusion. Why are owners doing this while revenues are going through the roof? Only they can answer this.

There's going to be an ugly strike sometime in the next few years. Possibly before the CBA is over.

I think the owners are correctly assuming fans will side with them in a strike situation and that’s the only ammo they need to treat the players poorly. I’m not sure a strike wouldn’t hurt the players even more. They are between a rock and a hard place. But they don’t have any other choice, they should strike before opening day.

 

[TheSting]

#fakenews by the players asssociation. This article nailed it...

Passan: The Bryce, Manny stalemate and the latest on MLB free agency

 

[ColdSteel2]

#fakenews by the players asssociation. This article nailed it...

Passan: The Bryce, Manny stalemate and the latest on MLB free agency

Exaggerating the situation when you’re in the right always backfires.

 

[Sarava]

I think the owners are correctly assuming fans will side with them in a strike situation and that’s the only ammo they need to treat the players poorly. I’m not sure a strike wouldn’t hurt the players even more. They are between a rock and a hard place. But they don’t have any other choice, they should strike before opening day.

Yeah I would consider a strike if I were the players. I was listening to the Score on the way to work a few days ago and they were talking about this. It came up about how fans usually side with the owners. How it's easy to say, yeah, Manny Machado wants $35 mil a year for 10 years - he is greedy. What was then mentioned was a how the owners don't have to disclose what they make. There's no big dollar amount attached to their name. That maybe that owner is profiting $160 mil a year, but nobody knows it? There's nothing out there to shock fans in to thinking they are greedy.

On another note - it's been said all along that the free agent market is waiting on the whales to sign. So maybe that is the trick. But why? I understand the White Sox. If they sign Machado or Harper, they probably will be more aggressive with other free agents. You know, sign a #2 starter like Keuchel or something. Start pushing the rebuild hard towards contention. Where if they miss the whales, they might not want to spend that money yet. But what's holding other teams back? I think there's only one answer. It started with a 'G' and ends with 'reed'.

 

[TheSting]

"Other factors further complicate the matter. Machado's agent, Dan Lozano, and Harper's agent, Scott Boras, don't like each other. It's not exactly that neither wants his client to sign first, but there is certainly a strategic element involved. Whether it's Machado or Harper who goes first, the one left over can leverage all of the interested teams against one another to create a bidding war"

 

[Sarava]

Yeah that's been speculated all along. That those 2 are holding everyone hostage over this while they have their pissing contest with each other.

 

[ColdSteel2]

Yeah I would consider a strike if I were the players. I was listening to the Score on the way to work a few days ago and they were talking about this. It came up about how fans usually side with the owners. How it's easy to say, yeah, Manny Machado wants $35 mil a year for 10 years - he is greedy. What was then mentioned was a how the owners don't have to disclose what they make. There's no big dollar amount attached to their name. That maybe that owner is profiting $160 mil a year, but nobody knows it? There's nothing out there to shock fans in to thinking they are greedy.

On another note - it's been said all along that the free agent market is waiting on the whales to sign. So maybe that is the trick. But why? I understand the White Sox. If they sign Machado or Harper, they probably will be more aggressive with other free agents. You know, sign a #2 starter like Keuchel or something. Start pushing the rebuild hard towards contention. Where if they miss the whales, they might not want to spend that money yet. But what's holding other teams back? I think there's only one answer. It started with a 'G' and ends with 'reed'.

Right. Well, I am confident there are enough former executives, some even former players, that could be convinced or paid enough to come up with ballpark revenue figures for the owners. The players should put together a commission to come up with a report and try to inform the public.

With the fans, there’s a lot of jealousy. They are jealous of the players’ success for whatever reason. I think they look at the owners as faceless entities. But the players can change that. The owners can’t stand bad publicity.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

They legally can't strike while the CBA is active.

A strike will never happen again in any sport, as the owners would never again be dumb enough to play with no CBA in place, they'd lockout.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

They legally can't strike while the CBA is active.

A strike will never happen again in any sport, as the owners would never again be dumb enough to play with no CBA in place, they'd lockout.

If that is true, then what is the point of a CBA? It gives the owners all of the leverage and the players none. Without the threat of a strike, the only point of collective bargaining is to minimize the concessions to management.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

Yeah, that's pretty much the whole point.

Here are the things the players fought for and won in the last negotiation:

CLUBHOUSE
A. Clubs will assume more responsibility for providing food and amenities to players in the home and visiting clubhouses.
B. Agreement on a list of best practices for Clubs in maintaining clubhouses, including standards for meals, amenities, assistance for player families, etc.
C. All Clubs will establish a Player/Management Advisory Council that will work with a full-time chef and registered dietician to improve clubhouse nutrition.
D. All Clubs must provide access, on a voluntary basis, to a sports psychologist.

PLAYER WELFARE AND PENSION BENEFITS
A. Current players will continue to receive the maximum allowable pension benefit under IRS rules.
B. Clubs annual contribution for pension and medical benefits will increase to approximately $200 million per year.
C. Pension benefits for classes of retired players will be increased.
D. Disability benefits for players will be improved.
E. Payments to retired players who were not vested in the Pension Plan will be continued during the term of the Agreement.
F. Players' medical and dental benefits will be improved in a variety of areas.
G. Players will be guaranteed a minimum contribution to their individual retirement accounts based on service accrued.

MINIMUM SALARIES
A. The Major League minimum salary will increase from $507,500 in 2016 to: $535,000 in 2017; $545,000 in 2018; $555,000 in 2019; and be subject to a cost-of-living adjustment in 2020 and 2021.
B. The Minor League minimum salary will increase from $82,700 in 2016 to: $86,500 in 2017; $88,000 in 2018; $89,500 in 2019; and be subject to a cost-of-living adjustment in 2020 and 2021.

They didn't have the foresight to anticipate what is happening now. That and service time manipulation will no doubt be the main things they're interested in next time around.

 

[piteus]

Yeah, that's pretty much the whole point.

Here are the things the players fought for and won in the last negotiation:



They didn't have the foresight to anticipate what is happening now. That and service time manipulation will no doubt be the main things they're interest in next time around.

Without another league (competition), the leverage is and always has been with the owners. The MLBPA has one advantage. It's strong. Players rarely break the line. Even then, the owners can still wait them out.

The owners won't get a hard cap, but I suspect the only thing the players receive on their next CBA is earlier free agency (perhaps by a year) and a better cap floor ... while the owners get even bigger luxury taxes and perhaps a cap on the length of player's contract.

I'm guessing ... but this will be the sort of negotiations.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

Guess I forgot the 3rd thingthey should be after, a guaranteed share of revenue.

If you're the owners, do you even want a hard cap at this point if it means a 50/50 split? The current set up is very much to their advantage, I remember reading probably a year or 2 ago that the player's share was only 42%, and its certainly trending down from that.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

Guess I forgot the 3rd thingthey should be after, a guaranteed share of revenue.

If you're the owners, do you even want a hard cap at this point if it means a 50/50 split? The current set up is very much to their advantage, I remember reading probably a year or 2 ago that the player's share was only 42%, and its certainly trending down from that.

I’d be floored if they wanted to open their books. I can’t see a hard cap coming.

 

[HawksBeerFan]

I don't mind teams waking up to the realization that these mega deals for aging veterans are not smart. The problem is that young players are horrendously underpaid with respect to their market value. I'm not even talking about minor leaguers, just about the first years for players in MLB. I doubt MLB will agree to a split of some sort so I think there are other things they can do...

- Decrease the number of years a player needs to become a FA
- Decrease the number of years before players can start going to arbitration (fix the arbitration system in general)
- Increase the MLB minimum salary significantly

I don't know if this is what players will go for but it seems to be the most realistic option to me.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

I don't mind teams waking up to the realization that these mega deals for aging veterans are not smart. The problem is that young players are horrendously underpaid with respect to their market value. I'm not even talking about minor leaguers, just about the first years for players in MLB. I doubt MLB will agree to a split of some sort so I think there are other things they can do...

- Decrease the number of years a player needs to become a FA
- Decrease the number of years before players can start going to arbitration (fix the arbitration system in general)
- Increase the MLB minimum salary significantly

I don't know if this is what players will go for but it seems to be the most realistic option to me.

That will never happen. The compromise is having an ELC rookie contract for year one with available bonuses and go to arb for years 2-6.
MLBPA should also be fighting for MiLB players getting paid like actual people based on what level they are at. 30K for A ball and below, 35-40K for AA and 45- 50K for AAA. In return for actual salary, the minor league players can reduce their slot numbers a bit in the draft, and international players would end up having to take smaller bonuses as well.

 

[HawksBeerFan]

There is no chance they are going to pay minor leaguers more.

 

[piteus]

Guess I forgot the 3rd thingthey should be after, a guaranteed share of revenue.

If you're the owners, do you even want a hard cap at this point if it means a 50/50 split? The current set up is very much to their advantage, I remember reading probably a year or 2 ago that the player's share was only 42%, and its certainly trending down from that.

That is revenue split far lower than the NFL, NHL, and NBA.