OT: What other Canadian cities could support NBA teams?

[qwerty]

I personally wouldn't say Vancouver was as much of a failure as some say it was. You simply cant give an expansion team 6 years to evolve a franchise. Memphis struggled at first as well.

Oh they definitely weren’t given a fair shot as expansion teams typically stink out of the gates. But the fact that they were forced to relocate because of poor finances doesn’t exactly bode well for Vancouver and the NBA. It’d be the equivalent of the Predators or Blue Jackets relocating after the first few years of existence because they didn’t make the playoffs for 5 and 7 years respectively.

Just think about where the salary cap was sitting at back in 2001 to today. We’re talking about a salary cap sitting around $35M to now in the $100M+ range. If the Grizzlies couldn’t afford to run a franchise with those kinds of salaries, imagine how much trouble they’d have trying to be competitive with a $110M salary cap. They’d have to triple or quadruple ticket prices from what they were charging back then. Just doesn’t seem feasible to me.

 

[Zenos]

I think Vancouver probably has the population, demographics, corporate base, and arena to support an NBA team. But who's going to own it? People are talking about 1.5 - 2 million USD for an expansion franchise. That's some seriously insane cash!

Besides, the NBA is even more dependent on their TV deals than the NHL is. Would Rogers or Bell (Sportsnet/TSN) really be willing and able to pony-up to outweigh the "costs" of adding an additional Canadian franchise at the expense of an American one? I'm not so certain.

As I see it, the pro-sports market in Canada is quite saturated. Maybe we see an 8th NHL team some day (though even that seems far-fetched now with 700 million+ expansion fees) and quite possibly the return of MLB to Montreal, but that's it.

Ottawa, Calgary, and Edmonton though wealthy and growing are all small potatoes in comparison. Much better suited to "second tier" leagues like CFL, CPL (or previously NASL), and possibly AAA ball.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Only the big smoke and maybe Vancouver with Montreal in the discussio . That is about it

 

[Jozay]

Sounds like Silver is interested in getting a team in Vancouver at some point.

 

[gstommylee]

Sounds like Silver is interested in getting a team in Vancouver at some point.

Would there even be a group willing to pay that kind of $$$ for a team especially when its up against other cities like Seattle and Mexico City for example.

 

[adsfan]

Vancouver never should have left in the first place, has a population of around 1 million more than when they had a team, and have one of the largest Chinese communities outside of China (a market the NBA is wanting to profit from).

Vancouver hands down.



It's not. Milwaukee has a population of only 1.5 million and can support the NBA, MLB, and NFL (GB relies strongly on the Milwaukee market). I don't understand why so many people think Vancouver is too small for 2 Big 4 teams. It's actually the perfect size for it.

You are correct that Milwaukee has a metro population of 1.52 million, 39th in the US. I think that the Packers get about 1/3 of their fans from Milwaukee. The Gold Package gets a preseason game and 2 regular season games. Some people in Milwaukee also have the Green Package, meaning that they are full STH. The Brewers are averaging 34,240 a game this season, 8th in MLB. The Bucks averaged 17,431 this season, 4th in the NBA. The Admirals averaged about 5500 in the AHL.

 

[Tawnos]

Any metro area as large or larger than the smallest metro with both an NHL and NBA team currently.

There’s a reason why a lot of the markets that already have one or the other aren’t viable places to expand to.

 

[garbageteam]

Any metro area as large or larger than the smallest metro with both an NHL and NBA team currently.

There’s a reason why a lot of the markets that already have one or the other aren’t viable places to expand to.

That'd be Denver with 2.9 million as of 2018 and I think you are implying that is the barrier for entry. However, the way American and Canadian cities compare Metro populations for statistics is quite a bit different, as American MSAs will include larger areas with more neighboring small cities as opposed to Canadian CMAs.

Using similar areas of coverage for both Metros, the GVRD including the Lower Mainland area has about 2.9 million as of 2018 as well. (pop figures: Table 1.1 Population and demographic factors of growth by census metropolitan area, Canada).

So based off your logic, both Vancouver and Montreal could potentially sustain both leagues' teams. If MLB returns to Montreal, I would say that takes it out of contention for sports saturation. The question posed begins and ends with Vancouver, but given the Commissioner has expressed his desire to see a team return there someday, it may just become reality in the future. No worse odds at this point than the Nords returning to QC.

 

[Tawnos]

That'd be Denver with 2.9 million as of 2018 and I think you are implying that is the barrier for entry. However, the way American and Canadian cities compare Metro populations for statistics is quite a bit different, as American MSAs will include larger areas with more neighboring small cities as opposed to Canadian CMAs.

Using similar areas of coverage for both Metros, the GVRD including the Lower Mainland area has about 2.9 million as of 2018 as well. (pop figures: Table 1.1 Population and demographic factors of growth by census metropolitan area, Canada).

So based off your logic, both Vancouver and Montreal could potentially sustain both leagues' teams. If MLB returns to Montreal, I would say that takes it out of contention for sports saturation. The question posed begins and ends with Vancouver, but given the Commissioner has expressed his desire to see a team return there someday, it may just become reality in the future. No worse odds at this point than the Nords returning to QC.

I was saying that without knowing the exact answer.

But I will say... I don't think MLB and NBA/NHL really compete with each other. There are several mid-sized cities out there with MLB, NFL and one of NHL or NBA. Even more with one of MLB/NFL and one of NHL/NBA. The real dividing line seems to be presence of both indoor winter leagues or not.

 

[Jets4Life]

Some Tongue and Cheek here...Winnipeg. The old Winnipeg Thunder of The World Basketball League was getting 15000+ for games in the early 90’s...For a brief period of time A professional Basketball Team in Winnipeg Manitoba was out drawing many NBA teams...it’s true
The Thunder played before the internet was a thing so there isn’t much to back up my claim with a link but the closest I can get is a Wipikedia page
Winnipeg Thunder - Wikipedia

I remember the Thunder vividly. They never came remotely close to selling out the Winnipeg Arena. They would get 7,000 tops, about 50% capacity. Where did you get such inaccurate information?

The Thunder were one of the tops teams, in terms of revenue, in the 1992 season, but keep in mind most teams were drawing less than 4,000 per game. The WBL folding halfway into the first year Winnipeg had a franchise killed any chance of the team being successful long-term, especially when they switched leagues in 1993.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

If a NBA franchise is viable in places like Milwaukee, New Orleans, Memphis, Orlando, Oklahoma City, Salt Lake City and Cleveland, it would certainly be viable in a place like Vancouver. A few of those places I listed have "socioeconomic issues" as well.

This requires a deeper understanding of how NBA revenue sharing works and how each of those markets generate revenue. [Spoiler: it's a lot more than just gate receipts.] That's not to say Vancouver couldn't support an NBA team, it's just saying that "well, _______ has a team" is an insufficient argument for why Vancouver should have one too.

 

[Anisimovs AK]

The 8 players were the same rules for Miami, Orlando, Charlotte, and Minnesota when they entered the league.

In 88, Charlotte and Miami selected 8th and 9th. In 89, Minnesota and Orlando drafted 10th and 11th. In 88-89, the Hornents and Heat had the 2 worst records in the league, but drafted 4th and 5th. In 89-90, the Nets had the worst record in the league. The Heat, Magic, Hornets, and Timberwolves had the 2nd-5th worst, but drafted 4, 5, 6, and 9.

No idea on the salary cap, but the expansion rules were the same. While there may not have been a rule preventing them from getting the 1st overall pick, the Grizzlies had a better pick for their first draft than any of those 4 franchises. Charlotte didnt get a first overall pick until 91 and Orlando in 92.

They werent though. Toronto and Vancouver didnt/couldnt get a top 5 pick for the first 5 years even if they won the lottery. You just listed multiple occurrences where previous expansion teams drafted in the top 5.


Also they werent allowed to use the full cap for the first 2-3 years. That was also changed from the 88 expansion

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

1. Vancouver
2. Montreal
3. Calgary
4. Ottawa

I think Winnipeg could easily support a team if the tickets weren't so expensive, probably meaning Edmonton could too. I remember seeing five Grizzlies games when I lived in Vancouver for some of my childhood, were my favourite team then until they relocated to Memphis.

But right now I think Las Vegas, Seattle, and many others are frontrunners. Montreal and Vancouver might rise up again since the Raptors, looking to be NBA champs, are making news across Canada.

Calgary I think happens in 20 years. Ottawa with a rising population might happen in 20 years too.

 

[OG6ix]

I'll be honest there is no league outside of the NHL that will expand to any city in Canada not named Vancouver/Montreal. Things can change if, say Calgary, has a higher population than both those cities. Honestly, I think Vancouver would be best for the NBA and Montreal for Baseball. Montreal would have issues with any league due to the French factor and the insane grip of Hockey on the sports landscape there. People thing Toronto is all leafs but honestly we are a well rounded sports city now. That took decades to get people's mindset to change from the Good ol' days of Argos/Leafs Canadian standards.

 

[Newsworthy]

How about NFL team?

 

[Vamos Rafa]

Are any of them as white as Salt Lake City? I would assume Montréal has the most diversity among them.

 

[Acesolid]

Montreal would have issues with any league due to the French factor

And why would that be the case?

Does MLB have a problem with spanish speakers in San Diego?

No!

The only people who have a problem with Québécois francophones are bigoted english Canadians. Who mistakenly imagine everyone worldwide hates Québécois francophones as much as they do.

When in reality that's not the case.

I can bet you nobody in the NBA or MLB care about what language Québécois speak at home. They only care about our dollars.

 

[Baxterman]

Not a chance Calgary could support a NBA team. There isn't close to enough basketball fans in the city. There is a lot of corporate dollars but with the downturn in the oil patch its hard to see them putting a ton of dough into a sport that there isn't much interest in among the locals.

 

[Vamos Rafa]

And why would that be the case?

Does MLB have a problem with spanish speakers in San Diego?

No!

The only people who have a problem with Québécois francophones are bigoted english Canadians. Who mistakenly imagine everyone worldwide hates Québécois francophones as much as they do.

When in reality that's not the case.

I can bet you nobody in the NBA or MLB care about what language Québécois speak at home. They only care about our dollars.

Lol how can you even compare the two cities? Do the white residents speak Spanish at home? Asians? Blacks?

And the street signs aren't in Spanish.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

And why would that be the case?

Does MLB have a problem with spanish speakers in San Diego?

No!

The only people who have a problem with Québécois francophones are bigoted english Canadians. Who mistakenly imagine everyone worldwide hates Québécois francophones as much as they do.

When in reality that's not the case.

I can bet you nobody in the NBA or MLB care about what language Québécois speak at home. They only care about our dollars.

25% of San Diego residents speak Spanish as their first language. 66.5% of Montreal residents speak French as their first language according to the 2006 Census. So you're walking down the street in San Diego and you're most likely going to run into people who speak English. You walk down the street in Montreal and you're most likely going to run into people who speak French.

 

[Acesolid]

25% of San Diego residents speak Spanish as their first language. 66.5% of Montreal residents speak French as their first language according to the 2006 Census. So you're walking down the street in San Diego and you're most likely going to run into people who speak English. You walk down the street in Montreal and you're most likely going to run into people who speak French.

And?

Is someone speaking another language then english at home somehow toxic to anglophones?

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

And?

Is someone speaking another language then english at home somehow toxic to anglophones?

It’s not toxic but if you had the choice would you rather play in a place where you understand the dominant language or a place that you don’t? I think most would rather play somewhere where they can understand the dominant language.

 

[Stephen]

They werent though. Toronto and Vancouver didnt/couldnt get a top 5 pick for the first 5 years even if they won the lottery. You just listed multiple occurrences where previous expansion teams drafted in the top 5.


Also they werent allowed to use the full cap for the first 2-3 years. That was also changed from the 88 expansion

I recall the Raptors and Grizzlies weren't allowed to have the first overall pick in their first five years, and not in the top five for their first draft, but they did go and pick Marcus Camby and Shareef Abdur Rahim 2nd and 3rd overall in 1996 (the Kobe Bryant draft).

 

[Pyrophorus]

AD wants out of New Orleans because they are a bad basketball team. Not because they play in New Orleans.

Zion is coming now.
Throw money at Kyrie....that's a good team.

 

[Pyrophorus]

It’s not toxic but if you had the choice would you rather play in a place where you understand the dominant language or a place that you don’t? I think most would rather play somewhere where they can understand the dominant language.

Soccer players travel and play all around the world.