OT: RIM Is Not Doing Well

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ChrisKreider20

But y u mad?
Jul 21, 2004
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I worked at a hedge fund in the fall.
The street has been bearish for months and months.
There was a suggested pair trade on apple & rim back in Sept.
 

Nashvols

Registered User
Jun 8, 2011
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Nashville
Yes, I understand RIM only made a profit of $934-million for the fourth quarter of fiscal 2010-11, up from $700-million a year earlier.

A little more than you or I made, mind you. I won't be worrying too much about RIM, even though I'm sure it is buried there somewhere in my paltry stock portfolio.

That's NET INCOME, not profit.
 

knorthern knight

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Mar 18, 2011
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RIM's problem is that they're too business-oriented. Back when smartphones were expensive and only businesses could afford them, that strategy made sense. Now, however, Iphone and Android are going after the consumer market, which was never RIM's target. Problem is, the lower-priced "consumer toys" are "good enough" to fill many of the same business functions as Blackberries, at a much lower the price. The best analogy is how $250,000 "unix workstations" with expensive OS and software got detroyed by $2,500 Dells running free linux.

Furthermore, with widespread consumer adoption of Iphone+Android, some companies are less likely to buy their employees a phone, but will allow their employees' personal smartphones to send/recieve corporate email.
 

Fourier

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Dec 29, 2006
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According to post AGM reports & comments, "no change in direction or leadership required; its all just overblown media hype". RIM-T has fallen from $147+ to todays closing of about $27; Android & Apple eating Blackberrys lunch, American investors bailing en masse'. Sure, theyve' made in-roads in North Africa & the Middle East, but the main markets here in North America & Europe, the UK. This is serious stuff. If they go down, they'll take a ton of little guys across Canada down with them. Beyond making a few changes at the Board level; its status quo. :shakehead

At least at this point though is RIM going down a realistic possibility. They are still a very profitable company ($6 per share on a stock priced at $27) with continued growth in several areas.
 

Gobias Industries

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Aug 29, 2007
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At least at this point though is RIM going down a realistic possibility. They are still a very profitable company ($6 per share on a stock priced at $27) with continued growth in several areas.

Yeah, but investors don't like to see a clear end point to a company...which I can see in RIM...The P/E will continue to be strong, but I still wouldn't want to invest long-term...
 
Nov 13, 2006
11,527
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A few interesting articles on this:

http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/07/06/can-rim-recover/

...Patience is wearing thin. Consumers are increasingly gravitating toward RIM’s rivals and investors are selling their shares, which traded as low as $25 in recent months (compared to a high of nearly $150 three years ago). Perhaps most ominously, for the first time there are rumblings that some of RIM’s biggest customers—the wireless carriers that actually buy its devices and wireless email services and sell them to their subscribers—are losing faith...

Later in the piece

...Still, skeptics abound. Billionaire investor Stephen Jarislowsky, the chairman of investment firm Jarislowsky Fraser Ltd., likens the challenges facing RIM to his print of the famous Japanese painting of a giant wave about to wash over several small boats: “If you’re not on top of that wave, you’re going to get swamped,†he says. “These guys were resting on their laurels.â€

The question now is whether Balsillie and Lazaridis, widely regarded as two of the best entrepreneurs Canada has ever produced, can paddle their way back to the top of the industry.

Coming from any other investor, Jarislowsky’s comments would merely be damning. But given that his firm was once RIM’s sixth- largest shareholder, it’s devastating. His firm has said it is selling half of its RIM shares and Jarislowsky has publicly accused Balsillie of being distracted by his pursuit of NHL hockey teams and political science think tanks...

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/rim-shareholders-grill-ceos-at-agm-125472078.html

As Research In Motion Ltd. wrapped up its annual general meeting in Waterloo on Tuesday night and the 350 or so attendees filed out, the sounds of Bob Seger's classic tune Against the Wind could be heard wafting over the speakers.

It was an apt selection for Canada's technology champion at a time when the company is facing one of its darkest hours...
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
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At least at this point though is RIM going down a realistic possibility?. They are still a very profitable company ($6 per share on a stock priced at $27) with continued growth in several areas.

Yes, it unfortunately is a "realistic possibility". RIM is rapidly becoming todays Nokia in a sector that above all else has simply got to be pushing the envelope from R&D through product release, and they've gotten clobbered on all fronts. To use a hockey analogy, your only as good as your next shift. What was once infinite has landed with a temporal and finite thud. It's going to take some serious alchemy to brake the descent and unless everyones missing something, what exactly is it that their working on, going to do that'll clutch drive this buggy back up the hill?. The delays in releasing their pad, pulling their goalie, allowing apple to skate away unchallenged on a clear breakaway just compounded what was already becoming a lopsided score in the smartphone market.
 

dj4aces

An Intricate Piece of Infinity
Dec 17, 2007
6,275
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Here's a rather interesting take from Business Insider.

http://www.businessinsider.com/did-jim-balsillies-hockey-obsession-kill-rim-2011-7

Did a hockey fantasy kill RIM? Wasn't Jim Balsillie working on his own time to spend his own money, which he has a right to do?

Well, you can call it a coincidence, but here are the numbers:
  • Since Balsillie's Oct. 5, 2006 bid for the Penguins, RIM's shares are down 16%.
  • Over that same period, the Nasdaq is up 24%, and Apple -- riding the incredible success of its iPhone, which it turns out people did want -- has risen 358%.

Maybe this would have happened anyway. Maybe Apple was just too strong and RIM's directors should shrug their shoulders and say, "Hey, it wasn't our fault because this is just a competitive business."

On planet Earth, however, we know that Balsillie was obviously distracted by his hockey forays. In hindsight, it's obvious that the period from October 2006 to June 2009 was when RIM wasn't paying attention to Apple.
 

Skarjak

Registered User
Sep 8, 2010
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Toronto
That's seriously pretty ridiculous. You know what else happened in 2006? I moved to another city. Damn, I'm the reason this is happening! I knew I should have stayed put...
 

Jeffrey93

Registered User
Nov 7, 2007
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This is the biggest overblown story in many many years. If RIM wasn't Canadian and if they weren't the only company of the like in Canada this wouldn't even be talked about.
The company is still a success. It is still doing well. It isn't doing AS WELL as many (the company itself included) had hoped, but it is still doing well.
Does that make it a sound investment right now? Maybe not...but it doesn't mean the company (or one of its NHL loving co-CEO's) is in any financial peril.

The biggest concern RIM has is their marketing. Apple is way better at selling an inferior product to thousands of mindless teenagers better than RIM is. Why is that? Because RIM has been and still is focused on the Corporate sector. They have just recently jumped into this gimmicky market that Apple is dominating. Give them time.
Apple is a tad different since they also make computers...that company was doing piss poor (compared to their competition) for a while and still came out alright. Research in Motion is no different except that they are specific to mobile devices.

I know of companies (many of them) that one area of their business propped up the other....then after some time that side that was propped up ended up thriving. RIM doesn't have another part of their business to prop up their smart phones or tablets. They only deal in mobile devices...and they have still done this well. If they had computer sales and MP3 device sales to prop up everything else when needed....this wouldn't be an issue.

They are a specific company and they have taken a hit lately...which means they haven't outdone their competition. They are still doing very well. But their competition is doing better. Last I checked...McDonald's does FAR better than Wendy's...but Wendy's is still alright. No different here.

They'll be fine. People are grossly over-reacting.
 

AllByDesign

Who's this ABD guy??
Mar 17, 2010
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This is the biggest overblown story in many many years. If RIM wasn't Canadian and if they weren't the only company of the like in Canada this wouldn't even be talked about.
The company is still a success. It is still doing well. It isn't doing AS WELL as many (the company itself included) had hoped, but it is still doing well.
Does that make it a sound investment right now? Maybe not...but it doesn't mean the company (or one of its NHL loving co-CEO's) is in any financial peril.

The biggest concern RIM has is their marketing. Apple is way better at selling an inferior product to thousands of mindless teenagers better than RIM is. Why is that? Because RIM has been and still is focused on the Corporate sector. They have just recently jumped into this gimmicky market that Apple is dominating. Give them time.
Apple is a tad different since they also make computers...that company was doing piss poor (compared to their competition) for a while and still came out alright. Research in Motion is no different except that they are specific to mobile devices.

I know of companies (many of them) that one area of their business propped up the other....then after some time that side that was propped up ended up thriving. RIM doesn't have another part of their business to prop up their smart phones or tablets. They only deal in mobile devices...and they have still done this well. If they had computer sales and MP3 device sales to prop up everything else when needed....this wouldn't be an issue.

They are a specific company and they have taken a hit lately...which means they haven't outdone their competition. They are still doing very well. But their competition is doing better. Last I checked...McDonald's does FAR better than Wendy's...but Wendy's is still alright. No different here.

They'll be fine. People are grossly over-reacting.

I somewhat agree, Jeffrey. The problem with RIM is that they are falling behind. Remember BETA? Maybe not... but I do. When VCR's came on the scene, BETA was the far superior product. In fact all profesional aplications of video tape from a media standpoind were in a Beta format. The consumer market was won by VHS. Did BETA survive... sure, but they didn't flurish. RIM is starting to trend down the same path. Technology wise, RIM has a superior product. The marketplace, is where the rubber meets the road. Apple is slaying RIM in the marketplace. It is only a matter of time until "Blackberry" will be a niche product name.
 

Semantics

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Jan 3, 2007
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They'll be fine. People are grossly over-reacting.

They really aren't. To succeed in the most competitive markets as a technology company, you need the top talent. RIM managed their explosive growth poorly and hired a lot of poor performers. You can't solve that problem with "just give them time". They pretty much need to quickly gut their workforce and lay off at least 50% of the company and completely re-invent themselves, otherwise they'll just continue to sink towards also-ran status much like what happened to Palm. In the meantime, lots of the good people they do have are jumping ship. Who in their right mind would choose to work at RIM over companies like Google, Apple, Facebook, or even Microsoft? Google even has a quickly growing engineering office in the KW area now, right in RIM's backyard, meaning RIM no longer has the advantage of being the only big company with a local presence. 5 years ago they could probably attract top talent, but not now, there's no way. If they can't recruit top engineering talent, they're as good as dead.

The only sense in which RIM will be fine is that they'll probably still exist (though they may get bought up), and will probably stay solvent. Shareholders have already lost a huge amount of value and will lose more. The company's products have been becoming irrelevant, and will continue to be irrelevant. I think the $250k Unix workstation analogy was right on the money, as RIM's main product has essentially been commoditized in a similar way.

Honestly, RIM should probably just give up on software and just focus on hardware running Android, perhaps with some of their own customizations. There's no way they can compete with Open Source, even with the patent licensing issues. And they most certainly can't compete with all the integration points that Apple and Android have or will have (iTunes, iCloud, Google+, Google Wallet, etc.)
 

Semantics

PUBLIC ENEMY #1
Jan 3, 2007
12,150
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Technology wise, RIM has a superior product.

Have you ever owned an iPhone or one of the better Android devices? RIM's products are definitely NOT superior. They're *different* and better in certain ways, but to suggest they're getting beaten by an inferior competitor... is very wrong.
 

Jeffrey93

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Nov 7, 2007
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They really aren't. To succeed in the most competitive markets as a technology company, you need the top talent. RIM managed their explosive growth poorly and hired a lot of poor performers. You can't solve that problem with "just give them time". They pretty much need to quickly gut their workforce and lay off at least 50% of the company and completely re-invent themselves, otherwise they'll just continue to sink towards also-ran status much like what happened to Palm. In the meantime, lots of the good people they do have are jumping ship. Who in their right mind would choose to work at RIM over companies like Google, Apple, Facebook, or even Microsoft? Google even has a quickly growing engineering office in the KW area now, right in RIM's backyard, meaning RIM no longer has the advantage of being the only big company with a local presence. 5 years ago they could probably attract top talent, but not now, there's no way. If they can't recruit top engineering talent, they're as good as dead.

The only sense in which RIM will be fine is that they'll probably still exist (though they may get bought up), and will probably stay solvent. Shareholders have already lost a huge amount of value and will lose more. The company's products have been becoming irrelevant, and will continue to be irrelevant. I think the $250k Unix workstation analogy was right on the money, as RIM's main product has essentially been commoditized in a similar way.

Honestly, RIM should probably just give up on software and just focus on hardware running Android, perhaps with some of their own customizations. There's no way they can compete with Open Source, even with the patent licensing issues. And they most certainly can't compete with all the integration points that Apple and Android have or will have (iTunes, iCloud, Google+, Google Wallet, etc.)

Stopped reading after you first line..." RIM managed their explosive growth".....that is just it. Before they were over-performing..now they are just performing well.
If you base a company's sustainability on their stock price....yer an idiot.

Yeah it plunged......but people in the business know why. So....it comes down to this....are you in the business of buying RIM stocks....or in the business of investing in RIM?
Totally different.
 

Jeffrey93

Registered User
Nov 7, 2007
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I somewhat agree, Jeffrey. The problem with RIM is that they are falling behind. Remember BETA? Maybe not... but I do. When VCR's came on the scene, BETA was the far superior product. In fact all profesional aplications of video tape from a media standpoind were in a Beta format. The consumer market was won by VHS. Did BETA survive... sure, but they didn't flurish. RIM is starting to trend down the same path. Technology wise, RIM has a superior product. The marketplace, is where the rubber meets the road. Apple is slaying RIM in the marketplace. It is only a matter of time until "Blackberry" will be a niche product name.

I think you are wrong in your predictions. Your analogy is sound though....BUT....Apple has other areas to prop up their cellphone market. When iPhone sales crash they can chirp about their great computer sales and Mp3 player sales. RIM doesn't have that out. So when you look for an excuse or for a section of the company to prop up the other section....yeah...with RIM you don't have it. That doesn't mean anything other than they are target specific.

The "Blackberry" will ALWAYS be the corporate choice. It always has been and always will be. That is the issue. RIM OWNS that market...they are only falling behind in the non-corporate market. And they are still doing "well" in that regard....just not as well as they had hoped.
 

jessebelanger

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Feb 18, 2009
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The problem is that this was true 2 years ago, it is not anymore. The reality is that people of all ages - in all sectors - are moving to these devices. As was covered earlier in this thread, businesses are moving away from RIM all together or providing multiple options to their employees.

http://www.businessinsider.com/android-iphone-market-share-2011-4

You can continue to claim this is not happening - but my own real world experiences, as well as several others of those in the technology industry on this forum, as well as RIM's plunge in market share and stock value, would suggest otherwise.
 
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Fourier

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Dec 29, 2006
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Waterloo Ontario
Yes, it unfortunately is a "realistic possibility". RIM is rapidly becoming todays Nokia in a sector that above all else has simply got to be pushing the envelope from R&D through product release, and they've gotten clobbered on all fronts. To use a hockey analogy, your only as good as your next shift. What was once infinite has landed with a temporal and finite thud. It's going to take some serious alchemy to brake the descent and unless everyones missing something, what exactly is it that their working on, going to do that'll clutch drive this buggy back up the hill?. The delays in releasing their pad, pulling their goalie, allowing apple to skate away unchallenged on a clear breakaway just compounded what was already becoming a lopsided score in the smartphone market.

I am not sure I see this happening in the same way though. Since the RBC report there has been a fair bit of talk about the possibility of RIM splitting into two companies. The smartphone side could well die, but the network side could flourish.

This is still a very profitable company with solid international growth.
 

Gobias Industries

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Aug 29, 2007
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Toronto
I think you are wrong in your predictions. Your analogy is sound though....BUT....Apple has other areas to prop up their cellphone market. When iPhone sales crash they can chirp about their great computer sales and Mp3 player sales. RIM doesn't have that out. So when you look for an excuse or for a section of the company to prop up the other section....yeah...with RIM you don't have it. That doesn't mean anything other than they are target specific.

The "Blackberry" will ALWAYS be the corporate choice. It always has been and always will be. That is the issue. RIM OWNS that market...they are only falling behind in the non-corporate market. And they are still doing "well" in that regard....just not as well as they had hoped.

Why will it always be the corporate choice? It's a well known fact that Apple recently took a huge back cover ad in The Economist and that RIM's security isn't as comfortably positioned as it used to be...

Here is the real question, why didn't they do as "well" as they had hoped?...Well basically because they lost a generation of phones because of delays...those delays will hurt their market share and perhaps more than any sector, technology is a slippery slope...

You realize being "target specific" just makes this more dangerous...they have no reputation based on other products and should their handsets fail they won't have much left...

We already know they're going to have to cut at least 10% of it's workforce and I can bet it's going to be more...they have less than a year to turn this ship around and I have a lot of doubts as to whether or not they'll be able to...
 

Dolemite

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The "Blackberry" will ALWAYS be the corporate choice. It always has been and always will be. That is the issue. RIM OWNS that market...they are only falling behind in the non-corporate market. And they are still doing "well" in that regard....just not as well as they had hoped.

For those of you people who think Apple is or will become a corporate phone option need to take off their Apple Fan boy hats/glasses. Apple doesn't know the first thing about business environments and have a LONG history of piss poor product testing coupled with focusing heavily on pretty looking applications/products that may or may not work correctly.

As for Blackberry, they are the current corporate choice (I have one myself). Right now they are ripe to be taken down by a competitor due to the fact that they 1) can't keep up with changing phone technologies and 2) they make crap in-house software (the current versions of their buggy Twitter and Facebook apps are prime examples of this).

::edit::

Here's another example of the crap in-house Blackberry software. A version of their messaging (BBM) software took down a HUGE chunk of their network in 2009:

http://crackberry.com/blackberry-messenger-fritz
 
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AllByDesign

Who's this ABD guy??
Mar 17, 2010
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Have you ever owned an iPhone or one of the better Android devices? RIM's products are definitely NOT superior. They're *different* and better in certain ways, but to suggest they're getting beaten by an inferior competitor... is very wrong.

Sure have. As for the rest of the post, Dolemite took the words right out of my mouth.

I should, however, qualify my earlier post a little, as I had been into the Crystal Head Vodka. I didn't mean that the iPhone is shoddy, or without benefit. If I need to strum a mini fake guitar, or sling birds at green pigs, the iPhone will be the first item I reach for. For business application and the main reason you have a cell phone.... to speak on the phone... I'll keep my Blackberry.
 

nomorekids

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Feb 28, 2003
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I'll re-iterate again...I work in corporate IT. I have for many years, for several large, prestigious companies. As a function of my job, corporate wireless devices have fallen under my purview, from both a front and back end perspective.

With all of that, with a finger on the pulse of the industry-- Blackberry is losing customers every single day.

It is NOT the only choice on the market anymore. As I alluded to in an earlier post, there was a time that they could pirate their customers due to a relative monopoly, requiring additional licensing, hardware requirements\overhead(in the form of a Blackberry Enterprise Server being required). That's not even considering the way that the devices themselves have fallen behind.

Conversely, you have Android\iPhone, that will work seamlessly with Exchange\Domino services that your company is already running anyway, without the need for costly additional Blackberry licenses, hardware, or administration. Android\iPhone\WM devices all work to sync email, calendar, contacts via Microsoft's ActiveSync technology, which is a native feature to MS Exchange. Most of the large IT shops in Nashville that I have contacts at\have worked at...including the government agency I work for currently...have abandoned or are planning to abandon Blackberry\BES for Android devices. In addition, we're retiring our BES servers, which means that users with personal devices that they wish to receive work email on are out of luck, unless they use something ActiveSync compatible. We're not going to keep paying RIM money just for the "privilege" of our employees using the devices. So Blackberry loses on two fronts -- they've already lost our corporate account, and our users, when it comes time to buy a new device, have to consider that if they want their work email on their phone, they need to purchase something that's not Blackberry, as well.

My story isn't unique. This is happening EVERYWHERE, throughout the industry. You can pound your chest and reassure yourself that RIM\Blackberry are fine, that they'll rebound, and that they're still "the only choice" for business use. You are categorically incorrect.

Until RIM overhauls their entire model...does away with the BES\CAL requirement, comes about 3 years into the present with their devices, and actually LISTENS TO THEIR LARGEST CUSTOMERS, they will continue to decline, until they've gone completely the way of Palm. It's not "if," it's "when."
 

Gobias Industries

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Aug 29, 2007
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Toronto
For those of you people who think Apple is or will become a corporate phone option need to take off their Apple Fan boy hats/glasses. Apple doesn't know the first thing about business environments and have a LONG history of piss poor product testing coupled with focusing heavily on pretty looking applications/products that may or may not work correctly.

That sounds like you're talking about the Playbook or the Torch...

I'd say RIM is becoming just as culpible...
 

BraveCanadian

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Jun 30, 2010
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3,694
I'll re-iterate again...I work in corporate IT. I have for many years, for several large, prestigious companies. As a function of my job, corporate wireless devices have fallen under my purview, from both a front and back end perspective.

With all of that, with a finger on the pulse of the industry-- Blackberry is losing customers every single day.

It is NOT the only choice on the market anymore. As I alluded to in an earlier post, there was a time that they could pirate their customers due to a relative monopoly, requiring additional licensing, hardware requirements\overhead(in the form of a Blackberry Enterprise Server being required). That's not even considering the way that the devices themselves have fallen behind.

Conversely, you have Android\iPhone, that will work seamlessly with Exchange\Domino services that your company is already running anyway, without the need for costly additional Blackberry licenses, hardware, or administration. Android\iPhone\WM devices all work to sync email, calendar, contacts via Microsoft's ActiveSync technology, which is a native feature to MS Exchange. Most of the large IT shops in Nashville that I have contacts at\have worked at...including the government agency I work for currently...have abandoned or are planning to abandon Blackberry\BES for Android devices. In addition, we're retiring our BES servers, which means that users with personal devices that they wish to receive work email on are out of luck, unless they use something ActiveSync compatible. We're not going to keep paying RIM money just for the "privilege" of our employees using the devices. So Blackberry loses on two fronts -- they've already lost our corporate account, and our users, when it comes time to buy a new device, have to consider that if they want their work email on their phone, they need to purchase something that's not Blackberry, as well.

My story isn't unique. This is happening EVERYWHERE, throughout the industry. You can pound your chest and reassure yourself that RIM\Blackberry are fine, that they'll rebound, and that they're still "the only choice" for business use. You are categorically incorrect.

Until RIM overhauls their entire model...does away with the BES\CAL requirement, comes about 3 years into the present with their devices, and actually LISTENS TO THEIR LARGEST CUSTOMERS, they will continue to decline, until they've gone completely the way of Palm. It's not "if," it's "when."

Yup.

Unless you're in an industry with very strict requirements or a business that needs the extra capabilities provided by BES, it no longer makes no sense to have a Blackberry.

If you are one of the 95% of users that only uses email, it is cheaper and easier to use Android/iPhone/Windows Phone 7.
 

BraveCanadian

Registered User
Jun 30, 2010
14,772
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For those of you people who think Apple is or will become a corporate phone option need to take off their Apple Fan boy hats/glasses. Apple doesn't know the first thing about business environments and have a LONG history of piss poor product testing coupled with focusing heavily on pretty looking applications/products that may or may not work correctly.

The decisionmakers in most companies care more about how popular/nice looking the iPhone is than any of the rest you mentioned.

Plus every kid has an iPhone and will be bringing it with them when they get the new job.

Apple is doing an end run into the business environment. And the best part for Apple is that by licensing ActiveSync they can wash their hands of the whole server side and not have to support it much at all.
 
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