OT: RIM Is Not Doing Well

[OthmarAmmann]

Oh, RIM. Can Nothing Go Right?

Research In Motion faces possible legalaction to prevent it from using the name BBX for its new operating system, after only unveiling the platform earlier this week.

http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2011/10/20/oh-rim-can-nothing-go-right/

 

[Bjorn Le]

He's actually a very modest man, he drives his daughter in an Acura to a public high school. (all his kids are in the public schools system, his daughter was in my daughters class(es))
He'll stop to talk to anyone that says hi to him and his kids are down to earth.
If he never had his picture in the paper, you would think he's your next door neighbour.
You can also see him lining up in a Tim Hortons for his coffee!

I'm fairly sure one of his daughters went to Rockway which isn't exactly a public school.

Anyways, I can't help but laugh that this thread is still full of mostly RIM bashing, mostly people who don't know what they're taling about. That's what it was when I first posted in this thread, and it still is now.

 

[Ward Cornell]

I'm fairly sure one of his daughters went to Rockway which isn't exactly a public school.

The school was Huron Heights with one of his sons going to Bluevale.

Anyways, I can't help but laugh that this thread is still full of mostly RIM bashing, mostly people who don't know what they're taling about. That's what it was when I first posted in this thread, and it still is now.

Tell me about it!

 

[Bjorn Le]

The school was Huron Heights with one of his sons going to Bluevale.



Tell me about it!

Well I knew his one son went to Bluevale but my cousin went to school with one of his daughters (She had dinner with Ballsille before) and she went to Rockway so maybe it was a diffrent daughter, I don't know how many children he has. Maybe it was before highscool too.

And yeah this RIM bashing is insane. If they go out of buisness, I'll stop being a hockey fan. It simply won't happen, they make too much money, they have too much capital, and every company goes through hiccups.

 

[MarkMM]

A lot of the RIM bashing is overboard, but there is a genuine risk to the company. It is growing in the developing world, it does have a cash-rich business model and is sitting on enormous assets, but with the rapidity of change in its space, that doesn't make it safe by any means. Previous to RIM, there was Motorola and Nokia, both at their respective domination periods looked indisplaceable, but things in the tech world can turn on a dime. Just a decade or so ago, Apple was on the ropes and only worth $5 billion or so, now it's $700 billion and the most valuable company in the world; IBM used to be "Big Blue", went through its own near-death experience, and emerged as something completely different.

One thing I think RIM is heading towards right now is not a complete death, but possibly its disappearance as a dominant player and a national champion (in the economic sense of the word). It may be bought out by another company if its stock price drops any further, or it may be broken up and sold off in different pieces.

And no, I'm not a RIM hater, I loved how they put Canada on the map but as a tech-company owner, all the warning signs are not looking good for their long-term health. IBM re-invented itself, Apple turned itself around, so there's hope, but there are a lot more Nortels, Motorolas and Nokia's out there to make one less than optimistic.

 

[RandR]

I assume this report concerns North America only, but this is really bad news for RIM.

Smartphones at Work: BlackBerries Disappear, iOS Beats Android

More than 30 percent of BlackBerry users in large enterprises (10,000+ employees) plan to switch platforms within the next year, according to a Wednesday report from Enterprise Management Associates (EMA).

What gives? Lots of dissatisfaction. Only 16 percent were "completely satisfied" with their BlackBerries, compared to 44 percent of iPhone users.

That is a heck of a lot of business being potentially being lost in the next year!

FWIW, I upgraded my university-aged daughter's phone to a smartphone for her birthday a couple weeks back. I decided on a Blackberry because I was able to get a plan (I pay the bills) for $30/month (limited talk+unlimited text+unlimited BB Messaging) instead of paying at least $50/month for an iPhone plan. She loves her phone because she mostly uses BBM with all her friends that have BB's too. My high-school-aged son also says more than half the kids at his school with cellphones have Blackberry's.

 

[MayDay]

FWIW, I upgraded my university-aged daughter's phone to a smartphone for her birthday a couple weeks back. I decided on a Blackberry because I was able to get a plan (I pay the bills) for $30/month (limited talk+unlimited text+unlimited BB Messaging) instead of paying at least $50/month for an iPhone plan. She loves her phone because she mostly uses BBM with all her friends that have BB's too. My high-school-aged son also says more than half the kids at his school with cellphones have Blackberry's.

I think that's only because you're in a Canadian city.

Here in NYC, Blackberries used to be ubiquitous, but from my own experience the number of people I see using Blackberries has fallen dramatically in the last few years. Just on my own observations, they are now hugely out-numbered by iPhones and Androids. I think it's like this across most of the country.

Canada may not experience this trend for a couple years yet, since RIM may experience some residual goodwill as a Canadian company.

 

[MayDay]

Previous to RIM, there was Motorola and Nokia, both at their respective domination periods looked indisplaceable, but things in the tech world can turn on a dime.

IBM re-invented itself, Apple turned itself around, so there's hope, but there are a lot more Nortels, Motorolas and Nokia's out there to make one less than optimistic.

To me, it seems like RIM is following exactly in the footsteps of Palm.

Palm Pilots and PDAs (like Blackberries) were once ubiquitous in the business world. But they had problems implementing new platforms, problems keeping on the cutting-edge of hardware, and problems in general competing with larger competitors.

I see them as very similar cases. I see RIM following in the footsteps of Palm, eventually being bought out by a larger company for its patents.

 

[Bjorn Le]

I assume this report concerns North America only, but this is really bad news for RIM.

Smartphones at Work: BlackBerries Disappear, iOS Beats Android



That is a heck of a lot of business being potentially being lost in the next year!

FWIW, I upgraded my university-aged daughter's phone to a smartphone for her birthday a couple weeks back. I decided on a Blackberry because I was able to get a plan (I pay the bills) for $30/month (limited talk+unlimited text+unlimited BB Messaging) instead of paying at least $50/month for an iPhone plan. She loves her phone because she mostly uses BBM with all her friends that have BB's too. My high-school-aged son also says more than half the kids at his school with cellphones have Blackberry's.

Companies are really dumb if they're replacing Blackberries with Iphones unless they want their employees playing Angry Birds all day.

Having friends that work within RIM, they're saying the amount of people switching is great exaggerated. The bad press is the worst thing for them, because people who won't go find out the facts.

I think that's only because you're in a Canadian city.

Here in NYC, Blackberries used to be ubiquitous, but from my own experience the number of people I see using Blackberries has fallen dramatically in the last few years. Just on my own observations, they are now hugely out-numbered by iPhones and Androids. I think it's like this across most of the country.

Canada may not experience this trend for a couple years yet, since RIM may experience some residual goodwill as a Canadian company.

When I was in the US earlier this year (Early summer) I saw just as many blackberries as I did any other phone. Again, this "everyone is replacing their blackberries with Iphones (or Android, but people usually say Iphone) is so exaggerated it's not even funny. RIM is not going to fail. That is out of the question.

 

[19nazzy]

I think that's only because you're in a Canadian city.

Specifically Eastern Canadian city(by the location info) Ottawa. I've lived in both Vancouver and Ottawa recently. Saw mainly iPhones in Vancouver, rarely a BB. In Ottawa mainly BBs with iPhones here and there.

 

[AllByDesign]

I think that's only because you're in a Canadian city.

Here in NYC, Blackberries used to be ubiquitous, but from my own experience the number of people I see using Blackberries has fallen dramatically in the last few years. Just on my own observations, they are now hugely out-numbered by iPhones and Androids.

So your statement is that Canadians would have a proclivity to use Blackberry's because it is a Canadian company that makes them? Interesting assessment. It must be why we are so fond of zippers as well.

I have found that the phone of choice has been based upon two factors. Working budget for said device and the purpose of use. Until one of RIM's creators attempted to buy hockey franchises, many Canadians were not savvy to the fact that their Blackberry was a Canadian invention.

RIM is at the crossroads right now. If they don't reinforce their purpose in the market place they will find themselves extinct in short order.

 

[MayDay]

So your statement is that Canadians would have a proclivity to use Blackberry's because it is a Canadian company that makes them? Interesting assessment.

Yes. Including many posters on these boards.

For instance:

I am holding off on getting a smartphone until I can give the BBX OS a whirl. Gotta buy Canadian if at all possible.

We have the same thing in the US as well. People who think it's somehow more patriotic to buy from an American company.

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

Lot of teens have switched to BBs the past year or so. Lot have actually moved there from iPhones, again because of the BBM thing and those TV ads. Nothing to do with BB being Canadian, as the average 17-year-old I know wouldn't have a clue the company is Canadian and wouldn't care of he/she did know. Ottawa area as well, though I doubt this is confined to around here.

Not that I'm saying BB is rebounding or anything. This is a blip. I think they'll be dead/bought out within a couple of years. That said, I hate my iPhone and wish I'd gone Droid. No interest in BB at all, though. They make a very dated phone by comparison with their top competitors, and the Playbook debacle really shows how out to lunch the company is.

 

[AllByDesign]

Yes. Including many posters on these boards.

We have the same thing in the US as well. People who think it's somehow more patriotic to buy from an American company.

Many being one?

I'm not picking on you. Patriotic purchasing really isn't the way things work in Canada. If it were, we wouldn't have had the influx of American retail we have experienced here. I am sure there are some that consider country of origin when they make a purchase in the Canadian market place, but would not classify the majority in this category.

 

[Killion]

As so few finished consumer products are actually manufactured in North America anymore, even if you wanted to "Buy Canadian" or "Buy American" well, just go right on ahead & try that at a Walmart or any other number of big box retailers. Protectionist or isolationist, its impracticable to ask or even expect Canadians or Americans to do that. Not much more than sloganeering (Obamas's "Buy American" Jobs Program for eg.)...

 

[Semantics]

Having friends that work within RIM, they're saying the amount of people switching is great exaggerated. The bad press is the worst thing for them, because people who won't go find out the facts.

Do you really expect a RIM employee to admit the cold hard truth? Of course they will say things are fine and they're just "regrouping". It would be terrible for morale for them to think otherwise. Same reason every NHL team claims they can make the playoffs, and doesn't admit otherwise until they're mathematically out.

The fact is that they've lost an enormous amount of market share. Sure the market has expanded, so it's not all from people switching, but the fact is that very very few consumers are choosing to buy BlackBerry at this point. And that trend will carry over to existing BlackBerry users when it comes time to upgrade. That's what ALWAYS happens.

Bottom line is that BlackBerry is pretty much finished in the US right now. Their share of NEW sales was 12% in Q2 and dropping fast, and customer satisfaction is barely in the double digits following their recent technical snafus.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...e-blackberry/2011/10/07/gIQAwKkZ3L_story.html

I also have to laugh when people point to RIM's enterprise and government contracts as a strength. When has government ever been an early-adopter of technology? I believe it was Andy Grove (Intel CEO) who said that large companies move three times slower than the tech industry when it comes to adopting new technology. And he said that government moves three times slower than that. You should expect RIM to disappear from these large organizations over the next several years as they continue to play catch up.

When I was in the US earlier this year (Early summer) I saw just as many blackberries as I did any other phone.

Gosh, with awesome objective scientific results like this, how can anyone possibly argue against you?

Again, this "everyone is replacing their blackberries with Iphones (or Android, but people usually say Iphone) is so exaggerated it's not even funny. RIM is not going to fail. That is out of the question.

What on earth is your criteria for failure? RIM has ALREADY failed by most rational definitions. The company is worth less than 1/6th of what they were a few years ago, their profits are dropping rapidly, they're laying off employees, and their market share has tumbled to less than half of what it once was. In my book that's one of the most spectacular declines of a large company since the tech bubble in 2000.

Sure they're not bankrupt and will continue to exist, perhaps even remain profitable, and maybe one day turn things around like Apple did. But for now, their legacy is thus: a company that was once innovative and tremendously successful because they were in the right place at the right time, but then utterly flamed out because their management completely failed at running a $50B company.

 

[Gobias Industries]

Ouch...

RIM is neither a buy nor a hold

 

[Bjorn Le]

Do you really expect a RIM employee to admit the cold hard truth? Of course they will say things are fine and they're just "regrouping". It would be terrible for morale for them to think otherwise. Same reason every NHL team claims they can make the playoffs, and doesn't admit otherwise until they're mathematically out.

The fact is that they've lost an enormous amount of market share. Sure the market has expanded, so it's not all from people switching, but the fact is that very very few consumers are choosing to buy BlackBerry at this point. And that trend will carry over to existing BlackBerry users when it comes time to upgrade. That's what ALWAYS happens.

Bottom line is that BlackBerry is pretty much finished in the US right now. Their share of NEW sales was 12% in Q2 and dropping fast, and customer satisfaction is barely in the double digits following their recent technical snafus.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...e-blackberry/2011/10/07/gIQAwKkZ3L_story.html

I also have to laugh when people point to RIM's enterprise and government contracts as a strength. When has government ever been an early-adopter of technology? I believe it was Andy Grove (Intel CEO) who said that large companies move three times slower than the tech industry when it comes to adopting new technology. And he said that government moves three times slower than that. You should expect RIM to disappear from these large organizations over the next several years as they continue to play catch up.

Have you ever been apart of a failing company? When a company is going down, everybody knows it, they don't deny it. Nobodys saying they are doing great, but their "failures" are so exagerrated. How do you make you're conclusions? Because you said so? People who think they're going under have no clue what they're talking about.

Gosh, with awesome objective scientific results like this, how can anyone possibly argue against you?

Yet people who go around saying that they don't see any blackberries anymore and they're virtually non existant in the US are the bastion of observation and insight?

What on earth is your criteria for failure? RIM has ALREADY failed by most rational definitions. The company is worth less than 1/6th of what they were a few years ago, their profits are dropping rapidly, they're laying off employees, and their market share has tumbled to less than half of what it once was. In my book that's one of the most spectacular declines of a large company since the tech bubble in 2000.

Sure they're not bankrupt and will continue to exist, perhaps even remain profitable, and maybe one day turn things around like Apple did. But for now, their legacy is thus: a company that was once innovative and tremendously successful because they were in the right place at the right time, but then utterly flamed out because their management completely failed at running a $50B company.

Every single company has hiccups. Not all companies can keep growing and never have problems. RIM isn't a company that's going to fail. They still make tonnes of money, they still have plenty of capital. RIM isn't close to failing, it's absurd to say that.

 

[chi777]

Have you ever been apart of a failing company? When a company is going down, everybody knows it, they don't deny it. Nobodys saying they are doing great, but their "failures" are so exagerrated. How do you make you're conclusions? Because you said so? People who think they're going under have no clue what they're talking about.



Yet people who go around saying that they don't see any blackberries anymore and they're virtually non existant in the US are the bastion of observation and insight?



Every single company has hiccups. Not all companies can keep growing and never have problems. RIM isn't a company that's going to fail. They still make tonnes of money, they still have plenty of capital. RIM isn't close to failing, it's absurd to say that.

Have you ever worked for a failing company? I doubt you have. I worked at GM while they were going bankrupt and the news from management was that "all is well" right up until we all got laid off because we were bankrupt. They always said stuff like "Don't believe what the media is saying, just wait until the Volt comes out" or "We'll be fine when the Camaro comes out." Same kind of non-sense that RIM is pedaling with the new BB or Playbook.

 

[AllByDesign]

Have you ever been apart of a failing company? When a company is going down, everybody knows it, they don't deny it.

Have you ever worked for a failing company? I doubt you have. I worked at GM while they were going bankrupt and the news from management was that "all is well" right up until we all got laid off.

Enron... GM... Chrysler... Many companies state "all is well" while in the midst of a death rattle.

In all fairness Chi, GM is still around and they are now posting profits. I grew up in Oshawa, so I am very familliar with The General's style in regards to their employees. I am empathetic to your plight.

Things are not rosey at RIM. In the tech field, every dog has his day, but it is a very short day. There is always someone bigger, stronger, faster approaching in the rearview mirror. I don't think RIM is cooked yet, but they had better develop something of relevance soon, or they will be antiquated technology.

Apple is strong today, but will be overtaken, in time, by the next advanced gadget. This is how the tech field has evolved. The cycle from obscurity, to fascination, to boom, to bust is getting to be ~10-15 years. The cycle also seems to be getting shorter as we move on in time.

I'm still waiting for my hover car BTW.

 

[Jeffrey93]

I assume this report concerns North America only, but this is really bad news for RIM.

Smartphones at Work: BlackBerries Disappear, iOS Beats Android



That is a heck of a lot of business being potentially being lost in the next year!

FWIW, I upgraded my university-aged daughter's phone to a smartphone for her birthday a couple weeks back. I decided on a Blackberry because I was able to get a plan (I pay the bills) for $30/month (limited talk+unlimited text+unlimited BB Messaging) instead of paying at least $50/month for an iPhone plan. She loves her phone because she mostly uses BBM with all her friends that have BB's too. My high-school-aged son also says more than half the kids at his school with cellphones have Blackberry's.

Go find polls where it was asked how many people were happy with Microsoft. Hell....I still use their stuff and I can't stand them! At the end of the day....they have the products that get stuff done. That is where RIM will thrive. And you know what? It might take tens of thousands of companies going to an alternative to realize what they had with BlackBerry. When they leave....then get hacked...or are hinging on local data providers that falter far more often than the BlackBerry services.....well...they might come back and bring many people that weren't with BlackBerry before with them.

If you ignore the catchy marketing....I still don't see why BlackBerry is losing sales. I know a few people that have just purchased a new iPhone...so they, of course, rave about it to me. I listen....and tell them "Yeah...my BlackBerry does all of that....and more. Want to hear what my phone does that yours doesn't?!?" And they always say...."No, yer just whiney because you don't have an iPhone.....iPhones are COOL!"

This is the Beta/VHS thing all over again. Beta was better in every way....but VHS won. Why? I have no idea. Same reason why iPhone seems to be winning customers from BlackBerry.....people are flocking from a better, more secure, more functional product for another product that is simply 'flashy'.

I have yet to hear a person tell me they like their iPhone because it does something that my BlackBerry, of 3 years ago, didn't do.

For example:
- I can text while talking (my old ass Pearl did that)
- My pictures get tagged and mapped (again...low budget Pearl did that)
- I can get apps! (totally oblivious that BlackBerry App World exists)
- My phone is easier to use (BlackBerry has buttons....plus touch screens...WAY easier to use than iPhones)
- Angry Birds!! (Several BlackBerry games that are the same)

I'd post more as I hear them if I could remember them.....my memory sucks...so I am missing piles. It basically turns out like this..
"You need an iPhone because it does X!"
"Yeah...my BlackBerry does X...it has for 5 years."
"Oh..but the iPhone is awesome!"
"Yeah? Why?"
"It just is! Duh!"
"Right....wanna buy some great real estate in Florida?"

Anyone that denies the Apple marketing success is a fool. I won't deny they are thrashing RIM in that regard. But....what are we talking about in this thread??? If the company is stable? Making money? Capable of sponsoring the NHL? A CEO that is capable of buying a franchise??? Or just simply RIM bashing because it is what the sheep (sorry...."popular tween based polls") say???

I recently bought a new Torch 9810....a "friend" bought the iPhone 4....so far there have been about a couple dozen problems with her phone....not a single one with my BlackBerry. Just sayin'.... The best is when the new iPhone users say "Ahhh...I wish I could _____" and you watch and say "Yeah...my BlackBerry can do that..the BlackBerry I owned 8 years ago could do that!".
It's so heart warming...to see the brand new iPhone buyers suddenly realize they are absolutely ignorant.
I get not buying a BlackBerry.....I do. But Android is next in line....not Apple.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Enron... GM... Chrysler... Many companies state "all is well" while in the midst of a death rattle.

In all fairness Chi, GM is still around and they are now posting profits. I grew up in Oshawa, so I am very familliar with The General's style in regards to their employees. I am empathetic to your plight.

Things are not rosey at RIM. In the tech field, every dog has his day, but it is a very short day. There is always someone bigger, stronger, faster approaching in the rearview mirror. I don't think RIM is cooked yet, but they had better develop something of relevance soon, or they will be antiquated technology.

Apple is strong today, but will be overtaken, in time, by the next advanced gadget. This is how the tech field has evolved. The cycle from obscurity, to fascination, to boom, to bust is getting to be ~10-15 years. The cycle also seems to be getting shorter as we move on in time.

I'm still waiting for my hover car BTW.

That is all it has been about for Apple. Inferior products (yeah....go Google the tech reviews) and high prices.....huge revenues based on average devices. Their marketing wins huge......past that.....they are nothing. People (tweens in Apple's customer group) will eventually become bored with Apple. They offer nothing of substance. Once the iPhone users grow up.....they won't want an Apple product anymore.....they just won't.

 

[Jeffrey93]

I should point out....my view of Research in Motion and BlackBerry has not, so far, been related to any of my comments. It has been based on customer response. The people I know that have left BlackBerry for the IPhone lately have ALL said....."Holy *****! the BlackBerry did that?!?!" Which I say "Yup, yup.". They leave BB for Apple...then don't realize BlackBerry gave them "stuff" their iPhone doesn't. iGnorance!!

 

[chi777]

Why don't you start bringing some of these glowing tech reviews and customer research studies you keep talking about to this thread so we can see it for ourselves? I haven't been able to find any of it.

You keep complaining about marketing but if RIM truly has the better product, which I don't think they do, then marketing it should be easy. Them not being able to market their stuff is just another example of their failure.

 

[Dalton]

BlackBerry alive and well - RIM

"We're in the fastest growing segment in the fastest growing industry, we have 70 million subscribers; we continue to show growth quarter after quarter," Robert Bose, RIM managing director for Benelux, Central Europe and Africa, told News24."

IMHO Apple without Jobs and his desire to nuke Android are in more trouble than RIM. Apple's success is clearly linked to marketing led by Jobs. The I-Phone 4s is just playing catch up with LG and Samsung. SIRI is a long overdue terrific idea but clearly it's still in a developing phase.

Fanboyz and girlz in NA are lapping it up but here where I live, work and play the buzz is all about RIM's new OS and phones. A major Singapore all (business) news TV station broadcast all over this region has a contest with RIM's new phone as a prize.

If I didn't read papers from my home country I wouldn't even know Apple had finally caught up to the major players with their latest offering. If I didn't look at this thread from time to time I'd never hear anything negative about RIM's Blackberrys.

Not sure what the point is of people who come to a hockey forum and try to convince hockey fanz that RIM is going out of business. Especially since it is clearly moving in the opposite direction all over the world.