OT: MLB commish - Las Vegas being considered for expansion team

[KevFu]

I agree and honestly would not be shocked if it is next season. Apparently, the commish is all for it, the players are all for it, and even the NL owners are supposedly leaning this way. Although, not sure it matters for $. Bottom line, still going to have 25 man rosters whether there is a DH or not.

The owner resistance used to be that DH's were like Dave Winfield and David Ortiz types, an "extra star player" making star money.

Now, MLB is more DH and starting lineup by committee. Everyone signs depth players to starters contracts (or trades for it at the deadline. PHI has Carlos Santana at 1B, first baseman Rhys Hoskins playing LF and traded for.... Justin Bour, a first baseman).
Which is kind of silly now because everyone is signing or trading for a ridiculous amount of depth.

Teams love the "Everyday Utility Man" who plays multiple positions -- like Javy Baez, who's gonna win MVP and possibly a Gold Glove despite not starting at any one position 80 times.

There's only THREE guys who are "qualified DH's" by plate appearances. One of them is retiring. The other two are getting close (Encarnacion and Cruz) are 35 and 38 this year.

 

[KevFu]

Why? If it is because you are a Jays fan, well someone needs to be in a division with them. We can say the same for the O's or anyone else you want to put in there.

This is all the more reason I want 32 teams and four divisions of eight and closer to a balanced schedule. The Yankees & Red Sox are always going to have more money than the Orioles, Jays and Rays. But it's total non-sense that those three play 37 games vs the Yankees/Red Sox, and the other eight teams fighting for wild cards play 13.

Deciding things by zip code is dumb. The one-game wild card is dumb for that reason as well. In the 23 years there's been a National League Wild Card, the division winners finished 1-2-3 in record only eight times.

Not a good system when someone's getting screwed 2/3 of the time.

 

[Kimi]

There's only THREE guys who are "qualified DH's" by plate appearances. One of them is retiring. The other two are getting close (Encarnacion and Cruz) are 35 and 38 this year.

OT, but next season there's going to be a qualified DH who is really a starting pitcher^^. It'll greatly amuse me if he somehow ends up being the only one to get the required games to do it.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Why? If it is because you are a Jays fan, well someone needs to be in a division with them. We can say the same for the O's or anyone else you want to put in there.

I'm not, but they're in a bad situation and they're the same distance from Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland. I'm fine with what @KevFu suggested but I think if it comes down to it the League will go Eastern- Western Conference to as not "sully" the NL with the DH.

 

[KevFu]

I'm not, but they're in a bad situation and they're the same distance from Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland. I'm fine with what @KevFu suggested but I think if it comes down to it the League will go Eastern- Western Conference to as not "sully" the NL with the DH.

The fans of MLB would be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY more Okay with the NL being "sullied" by the DH compared to eliminating the 120+ years of tradition with AL and NL being separate.

(which, by the way, is TOTALLY BETTER for a sports league than going West-East. The only benefit of East/West is scheduling pools for TV start times. But two leagues that mix West/East creates more rivalry games. Division games are most important, Conference games are next most important, and non-conference games are the least important. Your local rival is important for a different reason. MLB has division games, conference games, and non-conference games... but the non-conferences games include your most hated local rival).

The other reason adding the DH to NL will likely happen way before West-East realignment is because of voting.

DH rule can be done via the CBA, requiring a majority of owners (16) approving the CBA. OR an non-CBA vote to amend the designated hitter rule requires 3/4 majority (23 owners, aka 8 NL owners).

Every team has realignment veto rights from switching divisions/leagues. So you need all 30 to change to the format.

 

[aqib]

As opposed to? I think at one point, sports leagues would be hesitant to welcome a casino owner into the group. But I think society is changing. Owners aren't making the billions they need to become MLB owners by running charities.

The Wilpons were in the Madoff Scheme.
The McCourts were ridiculously unscrupulous, using team accounts to fund the lifestyle.
Angelos was a lawyer. How you make enough money as a litigator to buy an MLB team is beyond me.
Loria has ruined baseball in two cities now.
The Cardinals... one of baseball's most cherished franchises with a long tradition of doing things "the right way" and being second in championships despite being one of the smallest markets... yeah, they've been owned for a half-century or longer by BEER BARONS (the Busch family).

Not to mention, they don't really have a leg to stand on when you look at how many casinos have ads in MLB stadiums (huge credit to the Wisconsin casino: When the Braves or Indians come to town, they actually cover up their own ads as a protest).

With sports gambling legislation changing, I think the perception of a casino owner has changed (Hey, the Maloofs owned NBA teams and the Palms in Las Vegas). And I think the leagues trying to get a cut of gambling action on their sport is going to make a partnership more and more likely.

Angelos made his money suing the asbestos companies.

Anheuser-Bush sold the team in 1996.

 

[KevFu]

Angelos made his money suing the asbestos companies.

Anheuser-Bush sold the team in 1996.

Good intel on Angelos.

Gussie Busch III was an all-time great owner. I'm a Mets fan, but damn, Whitey Herzog's autobiography White Rat really makes me wish those two were running my team. He just told Whitey "Here's your budget, build me a winner. Keep me posted on any huge moves."

 

[patnyrnyg]

This is all the more reason I want 32 teams and four divisions of eight and closer to a balanced schedule. The Yankees & Red Sox are always going to have more money than the Orioles, Jays and Rays. But it's total non-sense that those three play 37 games vs the Yankees/Red Sox, and the other eight teams fighting for wild cards play 13.

Deciding things by zip code is dumb. The one-game wild card is dumb for that reason as well. In the 23 years there's been a National League Wild Card, the division winners finished 1-2-3 in record only eight times.

Not a good system when someone's getting screwed 2/3 of the time.

I disagree with everything here.

The Yanks and Sawx will always have more money than the Royals, White Sox, Tigers, but you want to stick them in the same division.

Wild card is great. Rewards teams for winning the division, which should be the goal of the regular season.

Wild card is not getting screwed, even if they are top-3 in their league. 3 years ago, Cubs were 3rd in NL and Mets were 5th, then Mets destroyed them in NLCS. Did Cubs get screwed?

 

[Melrose Munch]

I disagree with everything here.

The Yanks and Sawx will always have more money than the Royals, White Sox, Tigers, but you want to stick them in the same division.

Wild card is great. Rewards teams for winning the division, which should be the goal of the regular season.

Wild card is not getting screwed, even if they are top-3 in their league. 3 years ago, Cubs were 3rd in NL and Mets were 5th, then Mets destroyed them in NLCS. Did Cubs get screwed?

You're too old school. Wild Card is a mess. And more teams need to be in the playoffs. The Jay's need to be in a division with minny, Detroit, etc. This is a entertainment business. Playoffs droughts are not entertaining.

 

[patnyrnyg]

You're too old school. Wild Card is a mess. And more teams need to be in the playoffs. The Jay's need to be in a division with minny, Detroit, etc. This is a entertainment business. Playoffs droughts are not entertaining.

So, because the Blue Jays have not been able to beat the Yankees and Red Sox, they have to move divisions? What about the Orioles?

Should the Yankees and Red Sox be in their own division and a special rule that only 1 can be in the post-season?

 

[KevFu]

I disagree with everything here.

The Yanks and Sawx will always have more money than the Royals, White Sox, Tigers, but you want to stick them in the same division.

Wild card is great. Rewards teams for winning the division, which should be the goal of the regular season.

Wild card is not getting screwed, even if they are top-3 in their league. 3 years ago, Cubs were 3rd in NL and Mets were 5th, then Mets destroyed them in NLCS. Did Cubs get screwed?

None of that is really a disagreement with anything I said, other than “wild card is great.” and “not getting screwed.”

I want bigger divisions, because it means “where you’re located matters less.”
3 divisions = 3 drastically different scheduling models (each team in the same league plays 84 common games, 78 different ones).
2 divisions = one less drastically different scheduling models.

My idea would be:
- division winners go to LDS.
- each division has a wild card game: #2 vs #3. Winner faces their division champ.
Now you’d have a situation where every team fighting for the same prize during the regular season (Division, 2nd place, 3rd place) are playing virtually the exact same schedule. Which is the goal.

“Rewarding teams for winning the division” was the response to Wild Cards in the “4-teams per league make the playoffs” era going through the playoffs and winning World Series. There was no “reward” for winning the division vs finishing second.

But that implies winning ANY division is worth a reward compared to finishing second in any division. My point about the division winners finishing 1-2-3 in the overall league standings only 8-of-23 years is showing you THAT’S NOT TRUE. Like in 2008, the overall NL standings by win total (Again, schedule dependent)

1 CHC (Central Champ)
2 PHI (East Champ)
3 MIL (Wild Card)
4 NYM
5 HOU
6 STL
T-7 FLA
T-7 LAD (West Champ)

The other reason it’s completely unfair is that when a team like the 2008 Dodgers or the 2018 Indians win their division and finish that low in the overall standings, they are probably getting smoked in the playoffs because THEIR ENTIRE DIVISION IS GARBAGE.

If the other four teams in your division are garbage, you should have won A TON OF GAMES.


Simply going to two divisions instead of three reduces the odds that your entire division is garbage.


We all know the fairest way to determine who’s good and who’s not in a regular season is ONE group with the exact same schedule (like, say, English Soccer).

Before 1961, MLB was two leagues of eight teams, playing 22 games vs everyone in your league. The winner to World Series.

With 32 teams, MLB could go right back to that, only with four leagues instead of two, winners to the semifinals before the World Series. A much more fair system.

 

[Melrose Munch]

So, because the Blue Jays have not been able to beat the Yankees and Red Sox, they have to move divisions? What about the Orioles?

Should the Yankees and Red Sox be in their own division and a special rule that only 1 can be in the post-season?

All of them should be out. The divisions need to change.

 

[MikeCubs]

OaklandStadiumWatch‏ @OakStadiumWatch 2h2 hours ago
More
Listening to @DaveKaval on A's broadcast talk about meetings with CA State Lands Commission, who manage certain aspects of waterfront development, "It's going very well."

More details: -More legislation likely for A's ballpark. Meetings in Sacramento for at least another year. -A's want to break ground by late 2020, or by 2021 at the very latest, to open by 2023.

Best pic yet I've seen of the Howard Terminal site.

 

[Oscar Acosta]

So, because the Blue Jays have not been able to beat the Yankees and Red Sox, they have to move divisions? What about the Orioles?

Should the Yankees and Red Sox be in their own division and a special rule that only 1 can be in the post-season?

It's always funny to hear people complain about baseball like only the rich win, and lack of parity. It's simply because the Blue Jays suck, or their team also sucks, refuses to sign players, etc.

But then defend NHL which in last decade has had Chicago win 3, Pittsburgh 3, LA 2...

The Red Sox and Yankees have each won once in the last 10 years. In same timeframe so have the Kansas City Royals, a low budget team. The San Fransisco Giants won 3 times, and none with Barry Bonds being the highest paid player.

 

[MikeCubs]

Don't know how people can complain about MLB lack of parity when most MLB GM's avoid 30 year old plus free agents in the post steroid era. Teams get to control their players for 7 years so they get most of their productive years. So signing expensive free agents is a losing strategy except for a few exceptions(Max Scherzer, Jon Lester, JD Martinez, Lorenzen Cain etc...) The reason the Jays suck is because Alex A made too many short sighted moves and the Jays were left with a very old roster.

The current management wanted to rebuild 1 year ago but Rogers didn't want to lose the casual fans that jumped on the 2nd half 2015 bandwagon so value was lost by not trading veterans sooner.

Shapiro: Blue Jays would have hit reset a year ago if not for fans - Sportsnet.ca

Think of what the Jays could have gotten for a Marcus Stroman in a trade last winter given how leary teams were of Jake Arrieta/Yu Darvish in free agency.

 

[Kimi]

It's always funny to hear people complain about baseball like only the rich win, and lack of parity. It's simply because the Blue Jays suck, or their team also sucks, refuses to sign players, etc.

But then defend NHL which in last decade has had Chicago win 3, Pittsburgh 3, LA 2...

The Red Sox and Yankees have each won once in the last 10 years. In same timeframe so have the Kansas City Royals, a low budget team. The San Fransisco Giants won 3 times, and none with Barry Bonds being the highest paid player.

It's not about winning, it's about being in the play-offs at all. Big difference.

 

[patnyrnyg]

It's not about winning, it's about being in the play-offs at all. Big difference.

And, the Blue Jays were in the play-offs in 2015 and 2016.

 

[Kimi]

And, the Blue Jays were in the play-offs in 2015 and 2016.

That doesn't change anything.

Examples have already been shown where bad teams have been rewarded with playoff spots over better teams.

 

[Melrose Munch]

It's always funny to hear people complain about baseball like only the rich win, and lack of parity. It's simply because the Blue Jays suck, or their team also sucks, refuses to sign players, etc.

But then defend NHL which in last decade has had Chicago win 3, Pittsburgh 3, LA 2...

The Red Sox and Yankees have each won once in the last 10 years. In same timeframe so have the Kansas City Royals, a low budget team. The San Fransisco Giants won 3 times, and none with Barry Bonds being the highest paid player.

Don't know how people can complain about MLB lack of parity when most MLB GM's avoid 30 year old plus free agents in the post steroid era. Teams get to control their players for 7 years so they get most of their productive years. So signing expensive free agents is a losing strategy except for a few exceptions(Max Scherzer, Jon Lester, JD Martinez, Lorenzen Cain etc...) The reason the Jays suck is because Alex A made too many short sighted moves and the Jays were left with a very old roster.

The current management wanted to rebuild 1 year ago but Rogers didn't want to lose the casual fans that jumped on the 2nd half 2015 bandwagon so value was lost by not trading veterans sooner.

Shapiro: Blue Jays would have hit reset a year ago if not for fans - Sportsnet.ca

Think of what the Jays could have gotten for a Marcus Stroman in a trade last winter given how leary teams were of Jake Arrieta/Yu Darvish in free agency.

It's not about winning, it's about being in the play-offs at all. Big difference.

And, the Blue Jays were in the play-offs in 2015 and 2016.

That doesn't change anything.

Examples have already been shown where bad teams have been rewarded with playoff spots over better teams.

regardless of the division, the wild card needs to be fixed or got to 8 teams a league for the playoffs. Again, this is entertainment. If you are not making the playoffs, you are not entertained. 2 times in 25 years doesn't cut it. And it's beyond clear the salary cap in the NHL was never about parity, but's that's for other threads.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

That doesn't change anything.

Examples have already been shown where bad teams have been rewarded with playoff spots over better teams.

Yeah, that happens in all leagues. Just look at the NBA Eastern Conference the last 15 or so years where they had under .500 teams make it in while some teams in the West would win close to 50 and not make it. If Denver was in the Eastern Conference, they would've been the 6th seed last year. Instead they didn't make it. In 2014-15, if OKC and Phoenix were in the East they would've made the playoffs

In 2014 Carolina made the playoffs with a 7-8-1 record while Philadelphia missed with a 10-6 record. The Packers made it with an 8-7-1 record in 2013 while the Cardinals were out with a 10-6 record. In 2011 Denver made it with an 8-8 record and Tennessee was out with a 9-7 record. In 2010 the Seahawks made the playoffs with a 7-9 record and the Giants and Buccaneers both missed with 10-6 records.

 

[MikeCubs]

regardless of the division, the wild card needs to be fixed or got to 8 teams a league for the playoffs. Again, this is entertainment. If you are not making the playoffs, you are not entertained. 2 times in 25 years doesn't cut it. And it's beyond clear the salary cap in the NHL was never about parity, but's that's for other threads.

A good portion of those 25 years was the steroid era where you could regularly buy talent giving NY/Boston an unfair advantage. That don't apply to the current game(mostly). If the Jays want more playoff appearances now days

1. Don't listen to casual fans who want to keep players who won't be part of the next playoff team. Bill Parcells quote of if you listen to the fans you will end up sitting with them is so true in the case of the Jays.

2. Maybe the casual fans should learn more about the game and what a bad idea it is keep not get value for players who won't be part of the next title contending team so they won't put so much pressure on the organization to implement a less than effective strategy.

The entire focus the last 2 years should have been building for when Vlad Guerrero Jr./Bo Bichette are ready. Not trying to keep 2015 alive.

 

[Melrose Munch]

A good portion of those 25 years was the steroid era where you could regularly buy talent giving NY/Boston an unfair advantage. That don't apply to the current game(mostly). If the Jays want more playoff appearances now days

1. Don't listen to casual fans who want to keep players who won't be part of the next playoff team. Bill Parcells quote of if you listen to the fans you will end up sitting with them is so true in the case of the Jays.

2. Maybe the casual fans should learn more about the game and what a bad idea it is keep not get value for players who won't be part of the next title contending team so they won't put so much pressure on the organization to implement a less than effective strategy.

The entire focus the last 2 years should have been building for when Vlad Guerrero Jr./Bo Bichette are ready. Not trying to keep 2015 alive.

I agree with you. I'm not a jays fan per se, but it tells you how bandwagon they are. I still feel the playoffs should go to 8 teams per league best of 7, first to 4 wins per round. It makes the season longer, yes But everyone makes more money with 2 home games. I would say sabermetrics did change the game but honestly, WAR is ruining the game. JD Martinez was let go by Arizona because sabremetrics said he was a minor league defender. I'm sure the Red Sox love his 40 hrs.

 

[MikeCubs]

I agree with you. I'm not a jays fan per se, but it tells you how bandwagon they are. I still feel the playoffs should go to 8 teams per league best of 7, first to 4 wins per round. It makes the season longer, yes But everyone makes more money with 2 home games. I would say sabermetrics did change the game but honestly, WAR is ruining the game. JD Martinez was let go by Arizona because sabremetrics said he was a minor league defender. I'm sure the Red Sox love his 40 hrs.

WAR is a good stat since it encompasses everything, i just wish they'd come up with 1 WAR instead of having the fangraphs and baseball reference. I get confused by which is which. Arizona couldn't afford Martinez anyway regardless of WAR with Grienke's deal plus Goldschmidt being 1 year away from free agency after this year. JD Martinez is the rare free agent deal that will work out overall since all he has to do it hit in the AL. I don't think aging will get to him as much as a position player or pitcher.

8 teams is too many because the playoffs are a crap shoot unlike basketball and football. If the 8th seed got a hot pitcher or 2 and lucky in 1 run/close games they could go all the way way too often. Having 8 teams would devalue the regular season too much.

Blue Jay fans are the worst bad wagon fans/least knowledgeable in the 4 major sports. It blows my mind we will probably have a very nasty MLB strike in a few years over shorter service time since sabermetric GM's avoid 30 year old free agents like the plaque yet the Jays "fanbase" can't get enough 30+ year olds and want Shipiro/Atkins gone for wanting to build a good young team like Cleveland instead of investing in old guys.

 

[Melrose Munch]

WAR is a good stat since it encompasses everything, i just wish they'd come up with 1 WAR instead of having the fangraphs and baseball reference. I get confused by which is which. Arizona couldn't afford Martinez anyway regardless of WAR with Grienke's deal plus Goldschmidt being 1 year away from free agency after this year. JD Martinez is the rare free agent deal that will work out overall since all he has to do it hit in the AL. I don't think aging will get to him as much as a position player or pitcher.

8 teams is too many because the playoffs are a crap shoot unlike basketball and football. If the 8th seed got a hot pitcher or 2 and lucky in 1 run/close games they could go all the way way too often. Having 8 teams would devalue the regular season too much.

Blue Jay fans are the worst bad wagon fans/least knowledgeable in the 4 major sports. It blows my mind we will probably have a very nasty MLB strike in a few years over shorter service time since sabermetric GM's avoid 30 year old free agents like the plaque yet the Jays "fanbase" can't get enough 30+ year olds and want Shipiro/Atkins gone for wanting to build a good young team like Cleveland instead of investing in old guys.

Jays fans want to be in the playoffs, Rogers wants to keep their hold over Canada. Thing is, in a vaccum, I agree with more teams, but that will not change the fact the the Jays have bad management. Also the Expos might come back, and if they're good, Rogers takes a hit there as well. Thing is, with 8 teams, yes its a crapshoot, but that creates storylines, which creates drama, which good ratings. To keep on topic, I think Manfred will feel Vegas is crowded, and go with Montreal and Portland. @KevFu

With JD, it justr shows why they need a universal DH. Arizona lost a 40/110 player for nothing because of "tradition."

 

[MikeCubs]

Jays fans want to be in the playoffs, Rogers wants to keep their hold over Canada. Thing is, in a vaccum, I agree with more teams, but that will not change the fact the the Jays have bad management. Also the Expos might come back, and if they're good, Rogers takes a hit there as well. Thing is, with 8 teams, yes its a crapshoot, but that creates storylines, which creates drama, which good ratings. To keep on topic, I think Manfred will feel Vegas is crowded, and go with Montreal and Portland. @KevFu

With JD, it justr shows why they need a universal DH. Arizona lost a 40/110 player for nothing because of "tradition."

8 teams eliminates story lines too. With 8 teams and a crap shoot playoffs you wouldn't have the current NL central/NL west races. The Cubs/Brewers/Dodgers/Rockies would be lining up their playoff rotations so instead of talking Cubs/Brewers Dodgers/Rockies we'd be talking about much lesser teams vs. each other over the bottom seeds and how it's unfair that these crappy teams could get hot and win it all.

Making the regular season meaningless in favor of the playoffs is a bad idea because baseball isn't a sport that sells itself nationally well other than the odd Cubs win world series after 108 years. Playoff ratings mostly keep going down. People only follow the local team. You'd lose a lot of regular season interest if you keep letting the 6th to 8th best record teams go to/win the world series. You can't play 162 games and have it mean very little. There would be no point in following the regular season under 8 teams make the playoffs. Baseball don't work like NBA/NFL. You can't decide the better team in a few games.

Agree with you on the DH. I also wish MLB would shorten the regular season to 154 games. Without PED's the players need more rest. 162 games grinds everyone down into mince meat.

Manfred lists every market as an expansion possibility because Tampa needs a ton of public $$$ for a stadium(over half of $890M bear minimum). If you asked him if Kabul, Baghdad or Mars was viable he'd say yes it is. I think he knows Vegas is crowded and with $750M in public money going to the Raiders it's almost impossible Vegas will fund a domed $900M ballpark. I have my doubts on both Montreal and Portland. Portland would be one of MLB's smallest markets and is short on fortune 1000 companies(only 7 as of 2015). According to Warren Cromartie the guy behind the Montreal baseball project the Expos would be a small market similar to the Twins and that was back when the dollars was at par. The Montreal project baseball report says the Expos would be a receiver of revenue sharing. See page 12.

http://montrealbaseballproject.com/wp-content/themes/mbp/assets/docs/Feasibility_Study.pdf

I have my doubts the MLB owners are willing to split the total revenue 2 more ways for a couple small markets that would receive revenue sharing. I think the whole expansion thing is to pressure Tampa and keep other markets interested. I do think that if they do expand though Montreal and Portland do have the best shot.