Orr says Crosby is a top-5 player of all time, McDavid has the potential to be the best ever

[ViktorBaeArvidsson]

Meh, Bernie Nicholas has a 150 point season. Ovi, Sid and Geno have never scored over 120 in a season. Is Nicholls better than those three?

Never mentioned that guy so that’s a pointless response lol, just saying it’s impossible to be as great as “THE GREAT ONE”. Closes guy we ever saw that could beat him was Mario, but sadly injuries destroyed that chance. McDavid would have to pull insane numbers to beat Gretzky. Has nothing to do with just point totals, just the impact that Gretzky had on the game is far more than what anyone will ever do.

 

[Video Nasty]

It’ll be obvious when/if someone comes along who matches or surpasses Gretzky or makes a new top 5 that is as untouchable as the current big four is right now.

There won’t be any “if” qualifiers and they will do things people say are not possible like make every other player look like they’re playing in the minors in a 32+ team league with “more worldwide talent than ever before” averaging around 6.5 gpg league wide.

They will consistently put up point totals that at the very worst place them behind only Gretzky and Lemieux on the individual season list. When someone drops 160+ more than a few times in a league where GPG isn’t even 7.0 and wins like 6-8 Harts/Lindsays/Art Rosses apiece in a 10 year stretch.

 

[bobholly39]

I think Crosby absolutely belongs in the #5 conversation - anyone who disagrees is out to lunch.

I think without injuries - he's a slam dunk for #5. With injuries - it's a lot more subjective. He still has a case - a strong one even - but others are in that tier too.

McDavid looks to be every bit as good as Crosby talent-wise - and he also started crazy strong as an 18yr old. Sky's the limit for how high he reaches (well - not really, he won't surpass any of Orr/Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe - but #5 is up for grabs). I personally don't think his career surpasses Crosby's - but i certainly acknowledge it's a possibility

 

[Video Nasty]

I think Crosby absolutely belongs in the #5 conversation - anyone who disagrees is out to lunch.

I think without injuries - he's a slam dunk for #5. With injuries - it's a lot more subjective. He still has a case - a strong one even - but others are in that tier too.

McDavid looks to be every bit as good as Crosby talent-wise - and he also started crazy strong as an 18yr old. Sky's the limit for how high he reaches (well - not really, he won't surpass any of Orr/Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe - but #5 is up for grabs). I personally don't think his career surpasses Crosby's - but i certainly acknowledge it's a possibility

Next 5 years will certainly be telling for McDavid. If he racks up the trophies, which he has honestly disappointed the last two seasons, and has some playoff success (a Cup and a Conn), he'll pull ahead of where Crosby was after 10 seasons in the league.

Pending the playoffs, the next two seasons he could really build a strong case seeing as how Crosby missed a combined 101 games in seasons 6 and 7.

 

[KIRK]

I assume both are Bobby Orr clients?

Crosby is not, but curiously enough with McDavid's agent Jeff Jackson . . .

- Our Leadership

 

[RandV]

1) The scoring rate during Beliveau's career was literally identical to Crosby's. During both of their careers, the league has averaged exactly 2.85 goals per team, per game.

2)
Beliveau's best scoring finishes: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6, 8, 8, 9
Crosby's best scoring finishes: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 5, 6, 10

3)
Beliveau's per-game scoring: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 6, 7, 9
Crosby's per-game scoring: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6

So we can level the playing field three different ways (one of which is the fact that the playing field actually is level)... and all three ways confirm Crosby as the superior scorer.

And then the crucial piece of context that un-levels the field: Beliveau achieved these numbers while playing with the league's top-scoring defenseman AND the top goal-scoring RW of all time to that point. Crosby did it while competing for opportunities with a Hart-winning 2C.

It's hard to say to exactly what degree as it depends on a vague 'talent saturation' level but those finishing totals are far more impressive in a 30 team league than a 6 team league.

For the general topic though, not going to talk about rankings but I think Orr and McDavid make for interesting comparison. Orr of course dominated the league with his skating creating a new style of defenseman. Today, with all the advancements in technique, training, and equipment making every thing much quicker than back then, McDavid also dominates the league with his skating. It makes me think that doing the all things equal Orr transported to today would skate like McDavid, and McDavid transported back then would skate like Orr, so would be a really interesting comparison if they could have played in the same era.

 

[Pure Slaughter Value]

[now pretend I know how to photoshop and attached an all-star trading card showing "Gretzky's neighbor's cousin's best friend" on it]

It's the thought that counts

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Next 5 years will certainly be telling for McDavid. If he racks up the trophies, which he has honestly disappointed the last two seasons, and has some playoff success (a Cup and a Conn), he'll pull ahead of where Crosby was after 10 seasons in the league.

Pending the playoffs, the next two seasons he could really build a strong case seeing as how Crosby missed a combined 101 games in seasons 6 and 7.

Though being 2nd in the league in scoring both seasons isn't really too bad.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's hard to say to exactly what degree as it depends on a vague 'talent saturation' level but those finishing totals are far more impressive in a 30 team league than a 6 team league.

This is exactly why I give the tie to the more modern player.

Some people want to just say, point blank, that the modern player must be better, even if his accomplishments are lesser. I don't think that's true... I'm actually pretty opposed to it. But if two guys are doing the same thing, and we have good reason to think one of them had a slightly harder hill to climb in order to accomplish it, then that guy deserves the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I think HoH put Crosby at 10, so its clearly within the same "band" of players considered for 5. I dont see a ton separating him from Beliveau, so okay.

McDavid likely will not have a Big 4-level career, and to date has no postseason success, so its premature. But if he notches more Ross and MVPs in a strong era and can come down with a couple of Cups? I dont know - hes insanely talented and I dont want to put a ceiling on him. Unlikely but not impossible.

Mario didn't play in a playoff game until his 5th season.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

If we can tear ourselves away from the concept of "sacred cows" than there is some merit to what Orr is saying.

 

[wetcoast]

Both Orr and Lemieux have now said Crosby clearly belongs in the top-5 GOAT discussion. I’m sure many on here will have a field day with how the greatest defenceman of all time did not punish Crosby for his injuries, but rather praised him for his perseverance.

Personally I always take these type of views from former players with a grain of salt, I mean what else are they going to say, unless they are Marcel Dionne who comes across as very honest and blunt at times.

Probably more interesting is the comment about McDavid. I think it shows recognition of how the league has changed and become more competitive and more inclined to parity, and therefore a current or future player would not necessarily have to match Gretzky’s statistics and awards to really enter the GOAT discussion. I’m interested if people would agree or disagree with this.

This indeed is the more interesting part as the game and dynamics of the league have changed considerably.

 

[wetcoast]

Hasn't Gretzky been on record saying his neighbors cousins best friend is better than him?
Former players over praising younger players is nothing new

No you have it wrong it was his neighbors cousins best friends sister.

 

[wetcoast]

McDavid wont touch the top 4. Howe is the closest for him to reach but it's almost assured he wont get to that level. McDavid will end 5th-7th while Crosby 5th-8th

Well I think Mario is the weak link in the big four and if McDavid wants to pass Crosby he better start working on his playoff resume a bit here.

 

[wetcoast]

Crosby needs to continue to be effective for about another 6-8 years, IMO, for him to be top 5. Off the top of my head, Beliveau, Lafleur, Trottier, Perrault were all in Crosby's class as forwards...I'm sure others can chime in with examples. Hell, Ovi is now in his class, with his terrific production as he ages and his Cup win.

I never saw Beliveau in his prime(1950's), so I might be underrating him.

No Crosby passed those 3 guys some time ago and in the last one or 2 years he has passed Jean as well.

Also to your first statement if Crosby is as effective for the next 6-8 years like he has been in the last couple then it will be the big 5.

 

[wetcoast]

One could argue that Beliveau had a more decorated career, in terms of staying healthy and consistently being the best C in the league.

That said, if I were to argue Crosby over Beliveau, I'd start with:

1) Crosby played on a relatively ordinary NHL team, not a completely dominant dynasty that had the league's best defenseman, best goalie, and best goal-scoring winger at the same time. He can be forgiven for not winning 10 Stanley Cups, seeing as very few players from this era can match Crosby's 3.

2) Having 2 Conn Smythes as opposed to 1 is a non-trivial difference.

3) Crosby's numbers hold up against Beliveau's, and they're better on a per-game basis.

4) Beliveau dealt with the odd injury, but nothing nearly as catastrophic as losing entire prime seasons to neurological issues.

5) We're comparing a guy who turns 33 next month to a guy who racked up achievements until age 39, including his final 4 years in an expansion environment that artificially extended careers.

6) The tie should usually go to the more recent player.

Crosby also hit the ground running Jean wasn't an NHL superstar until the age of 23 but to be fair he might have been had he chosen the nHL route, it's a bit unclear.

Jean also had lower levels of play up to their current ages.

And let's forget about the differences in finishing top 10 in scoring between a 6 and 30 team league here are their finishes with duplicates taken out.

Crosby 1,5,10
Beliveau 4,8,8,9

Also unless one is SC counting their playoff resumes are a coin toss, in fact one can make the case for Crosby being ahead there as well.

 

[Video Nasty]

Though being 2nd in the league in scoring both seasons isn't really too bad.

No doubt. 4 top 2 finishes (all in a row) has already matched or surpassed what Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin have individually during their entire careers. They have also have 5 Art Rosses collectively. If McDavid finishes top 2 in scoring at least 10 times in his career and at least matches their combined AR count or surpasses it, that would be a pretty heavy point in his favor.

 

[nowhereman]

Delete.

I think the majority of hockey professionals, analysts and fans would rank Crosby ahead OV, in terms of both ability and career, but it's still close (mostly because of Crosby's injuries). OV is still one of the very best and, if he does end up breaking the goal record, that could go a long way in forging his legacy.

Personally, I have him in the 10-15 range, which is still higher than a lot of hockey historians would place him.

 

[wetcoast]

I hope and believe that by the end of their careers, Crosby and McDavid will have made it a “big 6.”

Just curious who are 5 and 6 right now?

I have a list of 4 or 5 guys that could be 5 and 6 right now, depends on the day of the week how I order them.

 

[Vijo Morganstein]

I don’t think Mr. McDavid will have a 92 goal season and 200+ point seasons anytime soon, I don’t think anyone ever will reach Gretzky.

Perhaps if every team replaced their goalies with zamboni drivers each game it would be more even footing

 

[wetcoast]

Those people are delusional.



Crosby is clearly ahead of them.



OV is absolutely in the discussion, you are delusional if you think otherwise.

Well 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

I have 4 or 5 guys for my number 5 and 6 spots all time and Ovechkin isn't one of them right now.

Crosby, Hasek, Bourque, Harvey, Lidstrom all have strong cases for the 5th and 6th spots and that's before you factor in guys like Beliveau, Hull, Richard, Potvin

 

[LokiDog]

I don’t think Mr. McDavid will have a 92 goal season and 200+ point seasons anytime soon, I don’t think anyone ever will reach Gretzky.

The league is far too crowded and competitive now for anyone to ever put those numbers up without drastic rule changes.

Goalies have changed dramatically. Gear and technique. Coaching schemes have changed dramatically. Most of all, the separation between 1st line talent and 4th line talent has changed dramatically.

As stated in the OP, you don’t necessarily have to beat other people’s numbers to be the best. The game has changed too much.

Not saying whether or not I think McDavid is even in that conversation.

 

[The Macho King]

Mario didn't play in a playoff game until his 5th season.

And it would have been premature to put him in the big 4 before he had any. Doesnt change my point.

 

[nowhereman]

Well 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

I have 4 or 5 guys for my number 5 and 6 spots all time and Ovechkin isn't one of them right now.

Crosby, Hasek, Bourque, Harvey, Lidstrom all have strong cases for the 5th and 6th spots and that's before you factor in guys like Beliveau, Hull, Richard, Potvin

I don't think Lidstrom or Potvin have a great case for top 10, let along top 5. Harvey and Bourque are arguable but I think they're both a stretch for #5. Goalies are always tough to rank but they don't come any better than Hasek, so I agree there. Jagr is another guy who regularly gets his tires pumped around here but I see him as a player with huge offensive numbers that lacked playoff success (when he wasn't riding shotgun to Lemieux/Francis/Dr. Recchi, etc.) and quit on a few teams. I really only think Crosby, Beliveau, Hull, and Richard have a great case for it, given their combination of skill, awards and winning pedigree.

 

[Yuri35]

[m

I think the issue is that fans like to compare resumes and career totals, rather than just talent.
McDavid is playing in a much tougher era of hockey, with the average level of competition being much higher than Gretzky. He's never going to come close to Gretzky's point totals or accolades, but I don't think it's crazy to suggest that he may be more talented.

+1
i'm surprised so many people almost feels offended at the mere suggestion someone could compare to Gretzky.
The great one was an amazing player but you have to recognize that while he was head and shoulders above his peers, that was an era which was VERY FAR from the level we've seen especially in the last 25 years.
Hockey's level has dramatically improved to a point some nostalgic people have actually still no idea and while it's still possible #99 would still dominate, no way in hell he would be even close to put the same numbers, especially in term of goals.
Oh and to my book, McDavid is quite easily one of the most talented hockey players I've seen in the last 30 years with some godly gifts like his skating and stickhandling at that speed.


so in conclusion, Orr might be right and knows what he's talking about.