Orr says Crosby is a top-5 player of all time, McDavid has the potential to be the best ever

[Sidney the Kidney]

You are forgetting that is was harder to score during most of Beliveau's career. Defence and physicality was a thing during the original six era. He was also a relative giant back then and could physically dominate in a way that Crosby can not.

Losing games to injuries can not be perceived as a positive thing. Durability is an ingredient to the recipe for greatness.

Meanwhile, the NHL has tried everything possible these last handful of seasons because defense and goaltending was killing offense.

Also, you forget the fact that goalies during Crosby's day actually had pads that allowed them to cover 90% of the net even if they stood still. In Beliveau's day, you could beat a goalie with an unscreened, half-decent slap shot from 50 feet out.

 

[abo9]

The problem is yeah, some players (or most, idk) are probably better now than Gretzky back then, since he's been used as an example of what to do and players are better physically trained today.

What we won't see anytime soon is another player dominating as bad a Gretzky did.

 

[TheBluePenguin]

Crosby is top 5 or at least very close. McDavid will never surpass Gretzky or Lemieux and he will have a hard time passing Crosby

I agree, not because McDavid is not great, he clearly is. The thing I see with McDavid is how much of his game is tied to his blazing speed, and that only takes one injury to take that away. Speed is the hardest thing to keep as you age. My god he is incredible to watch at the moment though.

 

[nowhereman]

Crosby needs to continue to be effective for about another 6-8 years, IMO, for him to be top 5. Off the top of my head, Beliveau, Lafleur, Trottier, Perrault were all in Crosby's class as forwards...I'm sure others can chime in with examples. Hell, Ovi is now in his class, with his terrific production as he ages and his Cup win.

I never saw Beliveau in his prime(1950's), so I might be underrating him.

Neither Trottier or especially Perrault are even close to being in the conversation. I can think of 20 players or so that I would have ahead of Trottier (Jagr, Bourque, Hasek, Roy, Harvey, Shore, Morenz, Esposito, Messier, Clarke, and so on) and another 50-75 I would have ahead of Perrault.

Ovi scores goals at a prolific and consistent rate. That matters, and always has mattered. That's what made Richard and Hull great. Ovi is the closest thing I've seem to Hull.

OV isn't quite in the conversation, as far as I'm concerned, since he lacks the overall dominance of Crosby/Beliveau/Richard/Hull. His peak was about as good as it gets, probably even a notch ahead of Hull, but he didn't sustain it long enough and had to adapt his game to continue his goal scoring dominance (sacrificing play-driving and defense). He's close but just on the outside looking in.

 

[tarheelhockey]

You are forgetting that is was harder to score during most of Beliveau's career. Defence and physicality was a thing during the original six era.

1) The scoring rate during Beliveau's career was literally identical to Crosby's. During both of their careers, the league has averaged exactly 2.85 goals per team, per game.

2)
Beliveau's best scoring finishes: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6, 8, 8, 9
Crosby's best scoring finishes: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 5, 6, 10

3)
Beliveau's per-game scoring: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 6, 7, 9
Crosby's per-game scoring: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6

So we can level the playing field three different ways (one of which is the fact that the playing field actually is level)... and all three ways confirm Crosby as the superior scorer.

And then the crucial piece of context that un-levels the field: Beliveau achieved these numbers while playing with the league's top-scoring defenseman AND the top goal-scoring RW of all time to that point. Crosby did it while competing for opportunities with a Hart-winning 2C.

He was also a relative giant back then and could physically dominate in a way that Crosby can not.

It's not like Crosby is soft. He's arguably the best corner player of his generation.

Losing games to injuries can not be perceived as a positive thing. Durability is an ingredient to the recipe for greatness.

We don't drop Orr or Lemieux out of the top tier for that reason, so there's no reason to cherry pick and do it to Crosby.

 

[surixon]

McDavid is pretty much treading water with Crosby through each first 5 seasons in the league. Unless he has a significantly higher second gear through his mid to late 20's he doesn't touch Gretz/Lemieux.

It isn't a foregone conclusion that he matches Crosby's consistency through the next 10 years of his career either.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

I don’t think Mr. McDavid will have a 92 goal season and 200+ point seasons anytime soon, I don’t think anyone ever will reach Gretzky.

Meh, Bernie Nicholas has a 150 point season. Ovi, Sid and Geno have never scored over 120 in a season. Is Nicholls better than those three?

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

Good posting in this thread @tarheelhockey.

 

[Chips]

Always agreed with this more or less. I don’t understand some people put so much value it stats from a different era being flat out better becusw there’s more.

Even “relative” to the competition you have to recognize how many teams/players there are now + how much the freaking talent gap between top players and role players has shrunk... or in other words the gap between modern bottom six guys and the ancient role players.

Arguably “hockey theory” or whatever you’d want to call it has improved such that more players are clued in on all the little things, ie some things weren’t just a given at one point, somebody had to figure it out before everyone else.
Like, how basically every modern sport started off rather simple in comparison to the modern thing. Human interaction naturally leads to growth through cooperation or conflict in every aspect of humanity, and so no shit systems and coaches have gotten more sophisticated over the years; and the intensity of dedication to match and one-up other teams.

Goalies

Etc etc

Watching old hockey highlights, as a young’n w no nostalgia, no doubt there’s plenty of awesome goals... but also a shitload of what feels like all stars skating through literal traffic cones and shooting into and empty net, which in itself collectively covers basically everything I mentioned lol. Very different game back then.


The game has grown and evolved, the talent pool has grown, the training has improved in basically every area; there’s no reason to think players “back then” would be so much better (well, nostalgia.).
Even the players themselves, who could ride out an epic ego trip the rest of their lives acknowledge it.

 

[DearDiary]

I agree, not because McDavid is not great, he clearly is. The thing I see with McDavid is how much of his game is tied to his blazing speed, and that only takes one injury to take that away. Speed is the hardest thing to keep as you age. My god he is incredible to watch at the moment though.

I've discussed this before, but McDavid's quick cuts and change of pace is dangerous, because he causes defenders to act out of desperation. This includes reacting by throwing a knee out or swinging the stick near the net. It's not on purpose, it's just an instinctive reaction.

 

[Khelandros]

You are forgetting that is was harder to score during most of Beliveau's career. Defence and physicality was a thing during the original six era. He was also a relative giant back then and could physically dominate in a way that Crosby can not.

Losing games to injuries can not be perceived as a positive thing. Durability is an ingredient to the recipe for greatness.

Bullshit.

1) The scoring rate during Beliveau's career was literally identical to Crosby's. During both of their careers, the league has averaged exactly 2.85 goals per team, per game.

2)
Beliveau's best scoring finishes: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6, 8, 8, 9
Crosby's best scoring finishes: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 5, 6, 10

3)
Beliveau's per-game scoring: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 6, 7, 9
Crosby's per-game scoring: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6

So we can level the playing field three different ways (one of which is the fact that the playing field actually is level)... and all three ways confirm Crosby as the superior scorer.

And then the crucial piece of context that un-levels the field: Beliveau achieved these numbers while playing with the league's top-scoring defenseman AND the top goal-scoring RW of all time to that point. Crosby did it while competing for opportunities with a Hart-winning 2C.



It's not like Crosby is soft. He's arguably the best corner player of his generation.



We don't drop Orr or Lemieux out of the top tier for that reason, so there's no reason to cherry pick and do it to Crosby.

Here are your numbers, to back up your point.
1950-1970: 20 seasons of Beliveaus NHL career, NHL per game scoring rate was 2.8175
2005-2020: 15 seasons of Crosbys NHL career, NHL per game scoring rate was 2.85

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Always agreed with this more or less. I don’t understand some people put so much value it stats from a different era being flat out better becusw there’s more.

Even “relative” to the competition you have to recognize how many teams/players there are now + how much the freaking talent gap between top players and role players has shrunk... or in other words the gap between modern bottom six guys and the ancient role players.

Arguably “hockey theory” or whatever you’d want to call it has improved such that more players are clued in on all the little things. Like, how basically every modern sport started off rather simple in comparison to the modern thing. Human interaction naturally leads to growth through cooperation in every aspect of humanity, and so no shit systems and coaches have gotten more sophisticated

Goalies

Etc etc

Watching old hockey highlights, as a young’n w no nostalgia, no doubt there’s plenty of awesome goals... but also a shitload of what feels like all stars skating through literal traffic cones and shooting into and empty net, which in itself collectively covers basically everything I mentioned lol. Very different game back then.


The game has grown and evolved, the talent pool has grown, the training has improved in basically every area; there’s no reason to think players “back then” would be so much better (well, nostalgia.).
Even the players themselves, who could ride out an epic ego trip the rest of their lives acknowledge it.

NHL legends are NOTORIOUS for being "aw shucks" about their abilities and what they accomplished in this sport. Be it Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux or anyone else really. That does not mean we should believe them.

What those three in particular did in this sport is unmatched. The modern game is better in a number of areas, but it is also worse in some (a LOT less hockey sense per player, in terms of creativity and being able to think for yourself on the ice. A lot less offensive instincts; absolutely ZERO intimidation factor to worry about, so there is plenty of time to study the coach's system).

It is too easy to just say it is far harder to score goals these days because of goaltenders, coaching systems, backchecking, a focus on two-way hockey, five-man units up and down the ice, etc. What we never talk about is how easy it is nowadays for a skilled player to move around the ice (without the concern of a behemoth wanting to take his head off, or constant whacks on the hands to prevent scoring chances, or defenders tugging at them in the mid-section in order to slow them down).

Yeah, nobody wants to see a return to that brand of hockey. But that does not and SHOULD NOT diminish what the greats who did play under those conditions accomplished.

 

[Cats2TheCup]

I don’t think Mr. McDavid will have a 92 goal season and 200+ point seasons anytime soon, I don’t think anyone ever will reach Gretzky.

If Gretzky were in his prime today, do you think he would score 200+ pts?

 

[Dominance]

1) The scoring rate during Beliveau's career was literally identical to Crosby's. During both of their careers, the league has averaged exactly 2.85 goals per team, per game.

2)
Beliveau's best scoring finishes: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6, 8, 8, 9
Crosby's best scoring finishes: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 5, 6, 10

3)
Beliveau's per-game scoring: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 6, 7, 9
Crosby's per-game scoring: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6

So we can level the playing field three different ways (one of which is the fact that the playing field actually is level)... and all three ways confirm Crosby as the superior scorer.

And then the crucial piece of context that un-levels the field: Beliveau achieved these numbers while playing with the league's top-scoring defenseman AND the top goal-scoring RW of all time to that point. Crosby did it while competing for opportunities with a Hart-winning 2C.



It's not like Crosby is soft. He's arguably the best corner player of his generation.



We don't drop Orr or Lemieux out of the top tier for that reason, so there's no reason to cherry pick and do it to Crosby.

Great post. This was worthy of a bookmark.

 

[The Moose is Loose]

Statistically he won't touch Gretzky, but I think McDavid is a strong candidate to be top 5 player of all time after the big 4.

 

[tarheelhockey]

1950-1970: 20 seasons of Beliveaus NHL career, NHL per game scoring rate was 2.8175

Notably, he only played 5 total games from 1950-53, including entire seasons missed. Counting those seasons pulls down his average a bit.

 

[Dominance]

Statistically he won't touch Gretzky, but I think McDavid is a strong candidate to be top 5 player of all time after the big 4.

I hope and believe that by the end of their careers, Crosby and McDavid will have made it a “big 6.”

 

[Khelandros]

Notably, he only played 5 total games from 1950-53, including entire seasons missed. Counting those seasons pulls down his average a bit.

Those 3 seasons were taken out.

 

[The Macho King]

I think HoH put Crosby at 10, so its clearly within the same "band" of players considered for 5. I dont see a ton separating him from Beliveau, so okay.

McDavid likely will not have a Big 4-level career, and to date has no postseason success, so its premature. But if he notches more Ross and MVPs in a strong era and can come down with a couple of Cups? I dont know - hes insanely talented and I dont want to put a ceiling on him. Unlikely but not impossible.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

The Crosby one is fine but I strongly doubt McDavid can pass Gretzky.

I think the issue is that fans like to compare resumes and career totals, rather than just talent.
McDavid is playing in a much tougher era of hockey, with the average level of competition being much higher than Gretzky. He's never going to come close to Gretzky's point totals or accolades, but I don't think it's crazy to suggest that he may be more talented.

 

[Tairy Greene]

You can really only compare to the era you play in, stats shouldnt count so much. If you are one of the 3 best players in the league for 10 years or so you have to be in consideration. Gretzky will always be the goat but he wouldnt put up those kind of numbers if he played today

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

The disrespect Gordie Howe gets is amazing.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Statistically he won't touch Gretzky and most likely no one ever will. But Lemieux didn't touch Gretzky stats wise either and some consider him better.

Those people are delusional.

Crosby needs to continue to be effective for about another 6-8 years, IMO, for him to be top 5. Off the top of my head, Beliveau, Lafleur, Trottier, Perrault were all in Crosby's class as forwards...I'm sure others can chime in with examples. Hell, Ovi is now in his class, with his terrific production as he ages and his Cup win.

I never saw Beliveau in his prime(1950's), so I might be underrating him.

Crosby is clearly ahead of them.

Ovechkin hasn't hit 90 points since the 09-10 season, despite playing pretty much every game. Let's slow the brakes

OV is absolutely in the discussion, you are delusional if you think otherwise.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Neither Trottier or especially Perrault are even close to being in the conversation. I can think of 20 players or so that I would have ahead of Trottier (Jagr, Bourque, Hasek, Roy, Harvey, Shore, Morenz, Esposito, Messier, Clarke, and so on) and another 50-75 I would have ahead of Perrault.


OV isn't quite in the conversation, as far as I'm concerned, since he lacks the overall dominance of Crosby/Beliveau/Richard/Hull. His peak was about as good as it gets, probably even a notch ahead of Hull, but he didn't sustain it long enough and had to adapt his game to continue his goal scoring dominance (sacrificing play-driving and defense). He's close but just on the outside looking in.

Put OV's resume next to Richard or Hull. It's better, especially compared to Richard.

 

[HarryLime]

The top 4 are clearly Gretzky/Orr/Mario/Howe

I don't think Sid or McDavid get there. I don't even call it a top 5 because the top 4 are in a clear tier by themselves. Hasek/Jagr/Crosby/Messier/Beliveau/Roy are all fighting for the top spot on tier 2.