Speculation: Opening Day Lineup

[Pip]

If there's one thing Willie is really good at, it's making adjustments and quickly realizing when things aren't working...

 

[y2kcanucks]

Note, I don't think of him as Bergeron, but I'm curious of what you think of him.

What do you think of him?

Or baertschi?

I think Granlund is a replacement level player.

I think Baertschi is a winger with second line offensive potential who needs to convert that into actual production this year.

 

[rune74]

I think Granlund is a replacement level player.

I think Baertschi is a winger with second line offensive potential who needs to convert that into actual production this year.

I'm ok with your assessment so far, until granlund can prove he can sustain his play in the preseason that's pretty much right.

So was Baertschi worth a 2nd?

What about Gaunce?

 

[Hit the post]

What about Gaunce?

I would've preferred dealing Gaunce for Granlund.

 

[MS]

Even Iain MacIntyre is questioning the lineup. That's how bad it is.

[Tweet]786997426179551233[/MEDIA]

Wow, you know you're doing something stupid when an organizational toady like MacIntyre is even scratching his head.

I would've preferred dealing Gaunce for Granlund.

Yeah, absolutely not for me. Gaunce is a better prospect than Shinkaruk right now and IMO it isn't really even close.

 

[rune74]

Wow, you know you're doing something stupid when an organizational toady like MacIntyre is even scratching his head.



Yeah, absolutely not for me. Gaunce is a better prospect than Shinkaruk right now and IMO it isn't really even close.

So where does that put Granlund for you? He outplayed Gaunce in the preseason IMHO.

 

[y2kcanucks]

I'm ok with your assessment so far, until granlund can prove he can sustain his play in the preseason that's pretty much right.

So was Baertschi worth a 2nd?

What about Gaunce?

Baertschi wasn't worth a 2nd based on the circumstances. Baertschi was clearly on his way out of that organization and most likely could have been had for much cheaper in the off-season when he refused to re-sign.

Gaunce appears to be a solid puck possession forward who has 3rd line potential with a 4th line floor. We'll see if that puck possession game holds this year.

 

[MeatAndPotatoes]

I'm gonna generate a lot of hate for saying this, but I think those lines are actually worth a shot.
If Baertschi/Granlund's chemistry carries over from the preseason, those lines maximize the effectiveness of almost everyone else in the lineup by sacrificing Horvat's. But Horvat is one of the only players capable of generating offense by himself. He can still be effective with plugs. I don't think Granlund can.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

People making a big deal about line combos but at the end of the day, the 20 players are the 20 players. Doesn't matter how you arrange mouldy fruit in the bowl, you're still gonna have an inedible product however you mix it up.

 

[ChilliBilly]

People making a big deal about line combos but at the end of the day, the 20 players are the 20 players. Doesn't matter how you arrange mouldy fruit in the bowl, you're still gonna have an inedible product however you mix it up.

It would be nice if a reporter would ask WD

"are you instructed to try and make JB's acquisitions look better by giving them more opportunity, or are you making these bad decisions yourself?"

 

[MeatAndPotatoes]

People making a big deal about line combos but at the end of the day, the 20 players are the 20 players. Doesn't matter how you arrange mouldy fruit in the bowl, you're still gonna have an inedible product however you mix it up.

Well at least we make alcohol from rotten fruit so we can all get drunk.

 

[Shareefruck]

I'm gonna generate a lot of hate for saying this, but I think those lines are actually worth a shot.
If Baertschi/Granlund's chemistry carries over from the preseason, those lines maximize the effectiveness of almost everyone else in the lineup by sacrificing Horvat's. But Horvat is one of the only players capable of generating offense by himself. He can still be effective with plugs. I don't think Granlund can.

This is like having that theory back in the day that, since the Sedins can elevate the play of anyone and be effective themselves regardless of their winger, the best way to optimize the lineup was to play the Sedins with your worst player, pushing everyone else down.

It's crazy-talk.

 

[Jyrki21]

As I posted on Twitter, spoiler alert:

Horvat Dorsett...
Horvat Dorsett...
HorvDorsett...
HorvDorse...
HorDorse...
HoDorse...
Hodor...
Hodor...
Hodor!

 

[MeatAndPotatoes]

This is like having that theory back in the day that, since the Sedins can elevate the play of anyone and be effective themselves regardless of their winger, the best way to optimize the lineup was to play the Sedins with your worst player, pushing everyone else down.

It's crazy-talk.

Nope. I don't think you actually read what I posted. Maybe try again. I didn't say that this was best for Horvat. I said it could be better for some other players on the team. I said Horvat can still be an effective player in spite of this. He'll of course be an even more effective player with better linemates. You bring up the Sedins, which is actually a great example. Did the Sedins during their prime always play with the best winger on the team? I'll answer that one for you. They didn't.

 

[VanJack]

People making a big deal about line combos but at the end of the day, the 20 players are the 20 players. Doesn't matter how you arrange mouldy fruit in the bowl, you're still gonna have an inedible product however you mix it up.

If Horvat is just another 'moldy piece of fruit in the bowl' and starts the season on the fourth line, then this team is in more trouble than anyone imagined....guy was a top-10 draft pick who cost us a franchise goaltender in Schneider; and was being touted as a 'future captain'. The only thing 'moldy' as I see it is between the ears of the guy behind the bench.

 

[Shareefruck]

Nope. I don't think you actually read what I posted. Maybe try again. I didn't say that this was best for Horvat. I said it could be better for some other players on the team. I said Horvat can still be an effective player in spite of this. He'll of course be an even more effective player with better linemates. You bring up the Sedins, which is actually a great example. Did the Sedins during their prime always play with the best winger on the team? I'll answer that one for you. They didn't.

It's essentially the same principle-- sacrificing the relative play of the best players by playing them with scrubs based on the fact that they can take care of themselves (because they're better players) in order to allow lesser players to be in a position to be more balanced/effective as a group.

Errr... the Sedins in their prime played with Burrows, who was our best winger after Daniel Sedin (and when Demitra was here, Burrows was still a better fit). Then they played with Vrbata, then they played with Hansen, then they played with Eriksson, who were again our best wingers after Daniel Sedin. The only times they didn't play with the best possible winger was AFTER it proved to be a poor fit, like Naslund and Demitra. Even then, they got significant time playing with them.

 

[MeatAndPotatoes]

It's essentially the same principle-- sacrificing the relative play of the best players by playing them with scrubs based on the fact that they can take care of themselves (because they're better players) in order to allow lesser players to be in a position to be more balanced/effective as a group.

Errr... the Sedins in their prime played with Burrows, who was our best winger after Daniel Sedin (and when Demitra was here, Burrows was still a better fit). Then they played with Vrbata, then they played with Eriksson, who were again our best wingers after Daniel Sedin. The only times they didn't play with the best possible winger was AFTER it proved to be a poor fit, like Naslund and Demitra. Even then, they got significant time playing with them.

Well I actually don't think Carter or Pyatt were our best wingers but I suppose I did use the word prime and that might only really apply to the Burrows era so that's my bad. I agree that they played with different players because of fit. I don't know if I agree with the philosophy of finding the best fits for your top players without considering the consequences further down the lineup. For example, I imagine you would have been against Mike Sullivan's decision to play Malkin on the third line with Bryan Rust?

 

[WhiteCurse]

Pretty meh opening night roster and line combos. I feel better about giving my tix away yesterday to go hunting instead

 

[Shareefruck]

Well I actually don't think Carter or Pyatt were our best wingers but I suppose I did use the word prime and that might only really apply to the Burrows era so that's my bad. I agree that they played with different players because of fit. I don't know if I agree with the philosophy of finding the best fits for your top players without considering the consequences further down the lineup. For example, I imagine you would have been against Mike Sullivan's decision to play Malkin on the third line with Bryan Rust?

When the Sedins played with Carter, they were not considered the best players on the team (even if they turned out to be)-- Naslund - Morrison - Bertuzzi had the highest priority. Carter was the best offensive player after that, AND he was a significantly better fit with the twins than guys like Cooke or Linden (and probably Naslund/Bertuzzi too). When the Sedins played with Pyatt, it was only after the Naslund experiment failed and wasn't considered a good fit. Pyatt was not noticeably worse than the players behind him, and even if he was a bit weaker as a standalone player, he was considered the best possible fit with the Sedins (even without considering the other lines). The decision was not made in an attempt to balance the lines while sacrificing some of the Sedins effectiveness.

Yes, there is an argument to be made that some attempt at balancing the overall team is sensible, but never at the expense of your best players, who should always be your biggest priority. If, for example, Horvat turns out to be an incredible fit with a lesser player (like he was with Kenins), then you build the rest of your lineup around that hoping to optimize the lineup. But only because Horvat is already accounted for first and foremost, which only then gives you that luxury.

I don't know what the situation was in Pittsburgh, but giving one of your best players linemates that he doesn't gel with as well as he does with other better players, on the grounds that you're prioritizing the chemistry/output of all of the remaining lesser players, is stupid, IMO.

If you had the opportunity to optimize the chemistry of Horvat, Sutter, and Gaunce's line, but only at the expense of Henrik Sedin's effectiveness, playing him with plugs that he doesn't have great chemistry with-- even if Henrik will be able to contribute something on his own, there's no way you make that tradeoff.

Even with the rest of the team playing well and cohesively as a unit, you don't get very far if Henrik's superior abilities aren't used to a reasonably full potential.