Post-Game Talk: Ooooh, DreamBeaut.... Pens - 2, Canes -1

[AjaxTelamon]

Ehrhoff didn't have 1 good month. He had 1 so-so one, which coincided exactly with Despres getting 5 minors every game. If #10 is somehow disqualified for who's been among our best D based on one meh month, 47 should be disqualified for putting us shorthanded so many times during the same period.

For the record, I don't hold either thing against either guy.

And it was Ehrhoff's 1st month in our system, and in our organization that was so so. Everyone's expectation was that Ehrhoff would immediately be Norris-esque or at least a very dynamic point producer, and that's just not realistic (especially considering his usage).

I would say Letang has been our best and most consistent D man, closely followed by Ehrhoff. And Despres has been our 3rd best. After that, it's a bit of a mess of inconsistent play, injuries, and consistently mediocre+ play from Scuds.

Ehrhoff and Despres have both steadily improved as the season has gone on, which is a very good sign.

I expected Ehrhoff to be better than Martin this year, but not this much better. That being said, if they don't intend to use Ehrhoff on the 1st PP (which they seem to have Letang and DP pegged for now and into the future), then his value to the team is somewhat limited. I still see them taking a run at signing him though. No way we enter next year with only two vets, one a bottom pairing guy, on our D. And having him onboard into the future gives us a lot more certainty in being able to trade away a younger D man down the stretch or in the offseason.

 

[Quatro Quatro]

I hope that at some point, at least one post game thread doesn't end up with everyone arguing about Simon Despres. Is he a little overrated? Yeah probably. Is he a good defenseman? Absolutely. I feel like a lot of people love him as much as they do only because Bylsma hated him so much.

 

[IcedCapp]

And it was Ehrhoff's 1st month in our system, and in our organization that was so so. Everyone's expectation was that Ehrhoff would immediately be Norris-esque or at least a very dynamic point producer, and that's just not realistic (especially considering his usage).

I would say Letang has been our best and most consistent D man, closely followed by Ehrhoff. And Despres has been our 3rd best. After that, it's a bit of a mess of inconsistent play, injuries, and consistently mediocre+ play from Scuds.

Ehrhoff and Despres have both steadily improved as the season has gone on, which is a very good sign.

I expected Ehrhoff to be better than Martin this year, but not this much better. That being said, if they don't intend to use Ehrhoff on the 1st PP (which they seem to have Letang and DP pegged for now and into the future), then his value to the team is somewhat limited. I still see them taking a run at signing him though. No way we enter next year with only two vets, one a bottom pairing guy, on our D. And having him onboard into the future gives us a lot more certainty in being able to trade away a younger D man down the stretch or in the offseason.

It was EVERYONE'S first month in this system.

I hope that at some point, at least one post game thread doesn't end up with everyone arguing about Simon Despres. Is he a little overrated? Yeah probably. Is he a good defenseman? Absolutely. I feel like a lot of people love him as much as they do only because Bylsma hated him so much.

At this point, it's not even about Despres, it's just poo flinging over every defensive player outside of Scuderi and Bortuzzo, apparently.

 

[billybudd]

And it was Ehrhoff's 1st month in our system, and in our organization that was so so. Everyone's expectation was that Ehrhoff would immediately be Norris-esque or at least a very dynamic point producer, and that's just not realistic (especially considering his usage).

I would say Letang has been our best and most consistent D man, closely followed by Ehrhoff. And Despres has been our 3rd best. After that, it's a bit of a mess of inconsistent play, injuries, and consistently mediocre+ play from Scuds.

Ehrhoff and Despres have both steadily improved as the season has gone on, which is a very good sign.

I expected Ehrhoff to be better than Martin this year, but not this much better. That being said, if they don't intend to use Ehrhoff on the 1st PP (which they seem to have Letang and DP pegged for now and into the future), then his value to the team is somewhat limited. I still see them taking a run at signing him though. No way we enter next year with only two vets, one a bottom pairing guy, on our D. And having him onboard into the future gives us a lot more certainty in being able to trade away a younger D man down the stretch or in the offseason.

Yep. Only thing I'd add is that prior to cancer, Maatta was right there with where Letang, on balance, has been this season.

Maybe I'll add one more. Martin's lack of engagement is frustrating, but he's mostly gotten the job done, despite that. He's not playing to his ability and I consider him redundant, but he's not been ineffective.

Despres has been comfortably better than Scuderi, Pouliot and Harrington, much, much better than Dumoulin and several miles past Bortuzzo.

 

[IcedCapp]

Pittsburgh Penguins @penguins
Bennett’s New Year’s resolution? “Play 10 games in a row. I just want to play hockey.” More in today’s #Pens Roundup: http://penguins.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=746563&cmpid=pit-twt-penguins


What a depressing resolution

 

[Waffle Fries]

Do I really need to say "Pouliot is definitely a NHL ready PPQB in my opinion"? I thought that was implied already. Basically anything posted here is an opinion. Nothing said on this site is fact, it's all opinion.

I don't trust the opinions on HF (who are extremely biased) as much as I trust the opinions of people like Pronman, Bombulie and others that have seen a lot of Pouliot and spoken glowingly of Pouliot. I also trust MJ here, if he wasn't a NHL caliber PPQB, he wouldn't be on the top unit. Obviously MJ is more familiar with Pouliot than any of us here, so if he thinks he's a NHL caliber PPQB, I'll take his word for it. He has coached Pouliot for 5 seasons now, I feel like he'd have a good feeling of what Pouliot could and couldn't do by now.

Anyone can be biased. Fans, coaches, media, anyone. I thought the Bylsma-era would have put an end to "well the coaching staff obviously knows better than anyone else!!!" arguments. I guess not.

MJ is much, much more likely to be biased when it comes to Pouliot than anyone on this site because of his history with him.

It's nice that Pronman and Bombulie have said nice things about his play in the AHL. That's not what the discussion here is about.

I think Pouliot has the potential to be a great PPQB, but potential ≠ current play.

 

[IcedCapp]

Anyone can be biased. Fans, coaches, media, anyone. I thought the Bylsma-era would have put an end to "well the coaching staff obviously knows better than anyone else!!!" arguments. I guess not.

MJ is much, much more likely to be biased when it comes to Pouliot than anyone on this site because of his history with him.

It's nice that Pronman and Bombulie have said nice things about his play in the AHL. That's not what the discussion here is about.

I think Pouliot has the potential to be a great PPQB, but potential ≠ current play.

the AHL writers have also said glowing things about Brian Dumoulin, and I don't see anywhere here using that as a reason to play Dumoulin with any regularity, let alone as a #1 Dman in the NHL.

Edit: Let me just reiterate: I really like Pouliot. I believe he's been put in positions he's not ready for because of his coach, but I do like him as a player and do believe he'll do great things for this organization. I'm not on the trade boards including him in 100 different proposals. I think he's someone who will help them win games for a long time. But none of that means I have to be worshipping at his altar at this point.

 

[penguins2946*]

Anyone can be biased. Fans, coaches, media, anyone. I thought the Bylsma-era would have put an end to "well the coaching staff obviously knows better than anyone else!!!" arguments. I guess not.

The difference is that Bylsma was an idiot, and I like to think that MJ isn't an idiot. All coaches have bias towards certain players, but so far, MJ isn't so stubborn that he would refuse to change some stuff up if it wasn't working. He has done stuff to support that (breaking up Kunitz and Crosby was the big one). MJ would not be playing Pouliot in the role he is right now if he didn't think he could handle it, and MJ has seen Pouliot more than anyone else. He's the best judge for what DP can and can't do. Everything from his decisions to his interviews makes me confident that he knows what he's doing.

MJ is much, much more likely to be biased when it comes to Pouliot than anyone on this site because of his history with him.

And he also knows what Pouliot can and can't do. He wouldn't be playing in the role he's currently playing in if he couldn't handle it. Nothing in his play so far this season has suggested that he can't handle what he's doing right now. I have been very happy with his PP play so far this year despite the state the PP is in right now.

 

[ProgOg]

Pittsburgh Penguins @penguins
Bennett’s New Year’s resolution? “Play 10 games in a row. I just want to play hockey.†More in today’s #Pens Roundup: http://penguins.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=746563&cmpid=pit-twt-penguins


What a depressing resolution

Aw, man.

I really can't make any jokes about him. I couldn't really before this season even started, but at this point I just want him to do well.

 

[Waffle Fries]

The difference is that Bylsma was an idiot, and I like to think that MJ isn't an idiot. All coaches have bias towards certain players, but so far, MJ isn't so stubborn that he would refuse to change some stuff up if it wasn't working. He has done stuff to support that (breaking up Kunitz and Crosby was the big one). MJ would not be playing Pouliot in the role he is right now if he didn't think he could handle it, and MJ has seen Pouliot more than anyone else. He's the best judge for what DP can and can't do.

I like MJ. But I wouldn't come close to saying that I agree with all of his decisions. Do you think that every decision he's made has been the right one?

And he also knows what Pouliot can and can't do. He wouldn't be playing in the role he's currently playing in if he couldn't handle it. Nothing in his play so far this season has suggested that he can't handle what he's doing right now. I have been very happy with his PP play so far this year despite the state the PP is in right now.

That's not necessarily true. He obviously has a soft spot for Pouliot. He's coached him basically every year of his career, and has had a major role in developing him. It's very easy to believe that MJ is blinded towards any shortcomings that DP may currently have simply because of how strong a will he has for him to succeed.

Through the six games that DP has played, I'm not convinced that he's NHL ready. I think he'd benefit in every aspect of the game from more seasoning in the AHL. He has great offensive instincts and skills, but I don't think he's quite there yet.

the AHL writers have also said glowing things about Brian Dumoulin, and I don't see anywhere here using that as a reason to play Dumoulin with any regularity, let alone as a #1 Dman in the NHL.

Edit: Let me just reiterate: I really like Pouliot. I believe he's been put in positions he's not ready for because of his coach, but I do like him as a player and do believe he'll do great things for this organization. I'm not on the trade boards including him in 100 different proposals. I think he's someone who will help them win games for a long time. But none of that means I have to be worshipping at his altar at this point.

I agree all around.

 

[mpp9]

MJ knows more about DP than all of us combined. It's not like DB catering to Engelland over Despres. DP projects to be a stud PP QB. If MJ feels he's ready for the NHL, I don't see the issue with giving him that opportunity.

The regular season is a proving ground for this team. Let's see if DP can be on the roster playing to his strengths come spring.

 

[penguins2946*]

I like MJ. But I wouldn't come close to saying that I agree with all of his decisions. Do you think that every decision he's made has been the right one?

Obviously I'm not going to agree with all of his decisions, but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point. The only big things I disagree with are playing Malkin with Sutter and consistently playing Scuderi, but there can be more to that behind closed doors (they're showcasing Sutter as a 2C as trade bait or they can't scratch Scuderi if they want to move him).

That's not necessarily true. He obviously has a soft spot for Pouliot. He's coached him every year of his career, and has had a major role in developing him. It's very easy to believe that MJ is blinded towards any shortcomings that DP may have simply because of how strong a will he has for him to succeed.

While that is a legit thing to say, I still think MJ wouldn't be so stubborn to keep throwing DP out there when he couldn't handle it like Bylsma would do. I know MJ wants Pouliot to be as good as he can be, both for Pouliot's sake and the team's sake. I don't think he would throw Pouliot out there over his head and possibly ruin DP.

Through the six games that DP has played, I'm not convinced that he's NHL ready. I think he'd benefit in every aspect of the game from more seasoning in the AHL. He has great offensive instincts and skills, but I don't think he's quite there yet.

I do agree he needs more AHL time to refine his defensive game, I have been thoroughly unimpressed with his defensive game. He hasn't been bad, he just seems lackadaisical defensively, and he isn't good enough defensively to play like that. He's definitely NHL ready offensively in my opinion, but he does need work defensively.

 

[IcedCapp]

MJ knows more about DP than all of us combined. It's not like DB catering to Engelland over Despres. DP projects to be a stud PP QB. If MJ feels he's ready for the NHL, I don't see the issue with giving him that opportunity.

The regular season is a proving ground for this team. Let's see if DP can be on the roster playing to his strengths come spring.

MJ knows more about every player on the team more than all of us combined, but that doesn't stop us from kvetching about anything and everything.

 

[mpp9]

MJ knows more about every player on the team more than all of us combined, but that doesn't stop us from kvetching about anything and everything.

He's coached Sid and Geno for a few months. He's coached DP for years. Not quite the same thing. I'd wager he's still learning quite a bit about the team, but has a very good idea as to what DP can bring.

 

[Darth Vitale]

He tried to get injured right there at the end, luckily they managed to get Adams back out on the ice again....

I only watched the 3rd so I won't pass judgement. Good to see Sid and Geno get going at the end, and that NutButter is still a great combo.

I was waiting for someone to make a graphic like this. Poor Beauner. Can't catch a break. *rimshot*

 

[Shady Machine]

Do I really need to say "Pouliot is definitely a NHL ready PPQB in my opinion"? I thought that was implied already. Basically anything posted here is an opinion. Nothing said on this site is fact, it's all opinion.

I don't trust the opinions on HF (who are extremely biased) as much as I trust the opinions of people like Pronman, Bombulie and others that have seen a lot of Pouliot and spoken glowingly of Pouliot. I also trust MJ here, if he wasn't a NHL caliber PPQB, he wouldn't be on the top unit. Obviously MJ is more familiar with Pouliot than any of us here, so if he thinks he's a NHL caliber PPQB, I'll take his word for it. He has coached Pouliot for 5 seasons now, I feel like he'd have a good feeling of what Pouliot could and couldn't do by now.

Is JB a scout? Just admit you said a stupid thing with the scouts comment and call it your opinion based on you watching him and we can move on.

 

[wej20]

I'd try putting Beau on the first unit, move Malkin back to the point and see if the extra righty makes the first unit less like garbage.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Beau should be sent to live with Hershel Walker, he would put some megaton the boy.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

It was EVERYONE'S first month in this system.

It's going to take a player like Ehrhoff a while transitioning from a losing culture to a winning one, and that may have more of an effect than anything.

And you have to consider that Ehrhoff was used in a shut down role during his first month against the toughest QoC with a lot of D zone draws, and that his GF/GA% was not bad at all during that time.

Yep. Only thing I'd add is that prior to cancer, Maatta was right there with where Letang, on balance, has been this season.

Maybe I'll add one more. Martin's lack of engagement is frustrating, but he's mostly gotten the job done, despite that. He's not playing to his ability and I consider him redundant, but he's not been ineffective.

Despres has been comfortably better than Scuderi, Pouliot and Harrington, much, much better than Dumoulin and several miles past Bortuzzo.

Agreed on Maatta, he just hasn't played enough to really be on that radar of our best and most consistent D men. And with shoulder injuries with young players being what they are, historically, I am not counting on Maatta for tough minutes this year. But he's clearly in the mix of our top D men when healthy.

Martin has been [very] effective at times, but considering his age, and the type of mileage he's been through the past few years, I won't dismiss out of hand that the downward arc has begun with him.

I'd rather have Ehrhoff this year and moving forward than Martin. Especially considering Harrington is in our system.

 

[Get To Our Game]

It's going to take a player like Ehrhoff a while transitioning from a losing culture to a winning one, and that may have more of an effect than anything.

And you have to consider that Ehrhoff was used in a shut down role during his first month against the toughest QoC with a lot of D zone draws, and that his GF/GA% was not bad at all during that time.

I'm willing to pretty much write off the first month or so of Ehrhoff's play here. While it's true that every defenseman had to deal with new management, a whole new coaching staff, and new systems, at least everybody else that has played D this season has been to a training camp in Pittsburgh (except Chorney I guess). I think that general unfamiliarity with everything, in addition to all you wrote, gives him a decent grace period to start.

The only two veteran defensemen I want on this team come April are Letang and Ehrhoff. Let's not forget that Ehrhoff played big minutes on back to back 100+ point Canucks teams and scored 28 total goals in those two seasons. He and Letang can play all situations (eating up minutes), play against top players, and produce offensively.

An interesting thought that has no basis in anything concrete: I wonder if Johnston's general hesitance to use Ehrhoff as the #1 PPQB for any extended period has anything to do with the rumors that the Pens are looking to extend him soon. If he's got an extra 10 power play points at this point in the season, he might be that much more expensive.

 

[Cherpak]

MJ knows more about every player on the team more than all of us combined, but that doesn't stop us from kvetching about anything and everything.[/QUOTE]

This site would fail to exist without the bolded.

 

[The Old Master]

An interesting thought that has no basis in anything concrete: I wonder if Johnston's general hesitance to use Ehrhoff as the #1 PPQB for any extended period has anything to do with the rumors that the Pens are looking to extend him soon. If he's got an extra 10 power play points at this point in the season, he might be that much more expensive.

it would probably cause him to look to sign some where else, where he could be used to his full potential. imo

 

[Callista Rhian]

Pittsburgh Penguins @penguins
Bennett’s New Year’s resolution? “Play 10 games in a row. I just want to play hockey.†More in today’s #Pens Roundup: http://penguins.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=746563&cmpid=pit-twt-penguins


What a depressing resolution

Can we have EVERYONE healthy for at least 10 games? Pretty please?

 

[Will Hunting]

I am not sure I agree with either of these two statements.

Young players obviously look "not smart enough" quite frequently, when what it is, is their inexperience. Despres does NOT look to me like someone who LACKS hockey IQ, and I think with a couple/few years more of experience under his belt, his play is going to look "smarter and smarter." There's a reason of course that people speak of "wily veterans." To say that Despres cannot reach Ehrhoff's level, when you are discussing a player who has played just over 100 NHL games vs. someone who has played over 700, is a statement that I would NOT be willing to make. If Despres displayed an obvious lack of hockey IQ at this point, then even considering additional development maturity, I could see where one could say "he can't/won't reach Ehrhoff's level." I don't see that, though, and thus I disagree with that statement. I think he very much can reach Ehrhoff's level.

I also think he is indeed very dynamic and talented. He will probably, likely not reach the elite level of speed and fluidity that Letang has as a skater, but Simon is a very good/fast skater in his own right -- and beyond that, I think he very much could be spoken of in the same breath as Letang someday. Not saying he will be, but saying I think he has that potential... I guess, bottom line, is when I ask myself "could I envision Despres in a Norris-type discussion (not winning a Norris, but having his name mentioned)" five years down the road, I'd have to say yes, I could see that as being a possible outcome -- i.e. a ceiling for him being having his name mentioned in a Norris discussion at some point.

"Despres is not smart enough to reach Ehrhoff´s level and not dynamic and talented enough to reach Letang´s level."

Just to clarify.. When I´ve said this, I obviously wasn´t talking about the future. You kinda cut that sentence out of the context. Maybe I should´ve clarified that with adding "yet" into that sentence, but I felt like it was obvious enough that we were discussing overall´s play DURING this particular season and comparing player´s performances.

Right now, Ehrhoff is still smarter than Despres and that´s what makes him a better player of these two in my books. Letang is still more talented and more dynamic than Despres and that´s why he should be winning this comparison right now (and in this case probably also going forward).

That said, my English is probably still a bit vulnerable which could cause a misunderstanding in this case. Improving my English is basically the main reason why I´m on these boards (except of being a die-hard Penguins fan, of course).

 

[steveg]

i

"Despres is not smart enough to reach Ehrhoff´s level and not dynamic and talented enough to reach Letang´s level."

Just to clarify.. When I´ve said this, I obviously wasn´t talking about the future. You kinda cut that sentence out of the context. Maybe I should´ve clarified that with adding "yet" into that sentence, but I felt like it was obvious enough that we were discussing overall´s play DURING this particular season and comparing player´s performances.

Right now, Ehrhoff is still smarter than Despres and that´s what makes him a better player of these two in my books. Letang is still more talented and more dynamic than Despres and that´s why he should be winning this comparison right now (and in this case probably also going forward).

That said, my English is probably still a bit vulnerable which could cause a misunderstanding in this case. Improving my English is basically the main reason why I´m on these boards (except of being a die-hard Penguins fan, of course).

Wow -- English is not your first language? Impressive! You speak it better than half of the people I know (and I'm not joking!)

Anyway, sorry if it appeared that I was purposely trying to take what you were saying out of context. That wasn't my intent. Perhaps I didn't read close enough to catch the subtlety -- that you were referring to RIGHT NOW, and not in the future.

In terms of RIGHT NOW, I fully agree with you. Despres does not currently have the smarts of Ehrhoff, and isn't currently as dynamic as Letang. No question.

When you said "reach Letang's level" and "reach Ehrhoff's level," I thought you meant the word "reach" as in "attain in the future," whereas it sounds like by "reach" you meant it in the present-tense sense of "doesn't perform as well as."

Sorry for the misunderstanding; I wasn't purposely trying to take your statements "out of context."