Only game being played is the blame game(CBA Negotiation discussion thread) - Part IV

[KingsFan7824]

When was the last time you saw that sweater and logo skate on the ice without a body in it?

We can go round and round on this. The players are the labor and the product.

The players get paid a lot of money to advertise the product, which is the logo of the NHL, and whatever particular team it is they play on. Both sides need each other to have a product to sell.

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

No matter how many times you say it or how loud you scream, you will never convince the players that they are meaningless.

 

[LadyStanley]

http://www.csnne.com/hockey-boston-...ment-means-NHL-is-?blockID=780011&feedID=3944

Commentary: NHL must learn from NFL ref fiasco

 

[Pepper]

It's funny! I have read many many articles on the lockout. And with the pro NHL people ANY writer that says ANYTHING against Mr. Bettman is scum. And I mean any writer.

So you think it's ok to go personal against Bettman?

 

[Number 9*]

So you think it's ok to go personal against Bettman?

He brings it on himself by being an arrogant, self absorbed disingenuous man.

Again would you like me show some of his disingenuous quotes?

 

[JAX]

I agree with this. Nothing in the NHL offer will keep the same scenario playing out again when the next CBA expires.

I think the players know they will lose some % of the HRR, but a reduction of % does not help the poor teams from becoming profitable in the long run. Sure, a drop helps now, but in 5 years we are right back here again (assuming the league HRR continues to grow).

In my less than expert opinion, the real question is whether you want a healthy 'league' or a dozen or so healthy teams and the rest either fold or continuously lose money.

It's not just about getting the % down it's about getting a system that won't allow things to get out of control again.

 

[JAX]

No matter how many times you say it or how loud you scream, you will never convince the players that they are meaningless.

That might be a bit dramatic......

 

[Number 9*]

It's not just about getting the % down it's about getting a system that won't allow things to get out of control again.

I thought the cost certainty Mr. Bettman demanded 7 years ago was to stop things from getting out of control?

 

[Puddin]

It's not just about getting the % down it's about getting a system that won't allow things to get out of control again.

Agreed. A straight % drop fixes nothing long term.

 

[mossey3535]

IMO above beyond the revenge factor the PA want assurance this does happen again. In other words NHL want are YOU going do to be sure we aren't concessing again 6 years and then again in 6 more years?

Ok, then negotiate a 10 year CBA. Negotiate SOMETHING that indicates what you actually want.

If the NHLPA had tabled 3 offers to the NHL's 3 offers, I would still be on their side as I was at the beginning of all this.

Also, so the owners imposed a system. It didn't work like they said it would. They have a right to try to negotiate a system that works for them, no?

And yes, it is a tweak. Let me show you a really ridiculous offer:

Salary cap not directly linked to revenues or 57% HRR for owners, no cap floor, end to guaranteed contracts, higher age for UFA, lower rookie contracts, different definition of HRR to give players less pie of the smaller share. This is essentially the NFL CBA (except the UFA and cap floor, their PA won that back). And the NFL is the way it is because their PA has never had the will to ask for more. They couldn't even get guaranteed contracts in last year's lockout!

Instead the NHL is negotiating a share of HRR that will be around 50/50, a definition of HRR that foregoes their ability to make the pie smaller, and a maximum length to UFA contracts so the richer teams can't circumvent the rules to sign their stars. To me that is more than reasonable.

Right now the NHLPA being willing to waste a season is essentially a stupidity tax they're charging themselves.

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

Give me all your money.

No.

Give me half of all your money.

No.

You're not negotiating.

 

[mossey3535]

Give me all your money.

No.

Give me half of all your money.

No.

You're not negotiating.

You know, I don't think this post worked out the way you thought it was going to.

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

You know, I don't think this post worked out the way you thought it was going to.

My point was neither person is actually negotiating with the other party.

 

[Boltsfan2029]

When was the last time you saw that sweater and logo skate on the ice without a body in it?

We can go round and round on this. The players are the labor and the product.

The team/game is the product. Every player on the team is temporary.

 

[Number 9*]

The team/game is the product. Every player on the team is temporary.

Not according the many long term contracts that have been signed!

 

[Boltsfan2029]

No matter how many times you say it or how loud you scream, you will never convince the players that they are meaningless.

I have yet to see anyone claim the players are meaningless.

I thought the cost certainty Mr. Bettman demanded 7 years ago was to stop things from getting out of control?

Has anything in your life changed in the last 7 years?

The world changes. Things that may have worked 7 years ago may no longer work now.

[mod del]

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

Everyone knows that the quality of competition would suffer greatly if they went to replacement players. If you disagree, frankly I call you a liar.

 

[SJeasy]

Have they repealed existing labor laws where you live? C'mon, the world isn't like it was back then.

They haven't repealed, but the new tactic is "ship it overseas". It still doesn't get companies to pennies on the $ because despite the claims on third world pay, the real measure is relative life style. It isn't 18th century, but it is close. The third world can't pay workers so little as to starve them, but they can set up a system with mass feedings, dorm style living, limited healthcare, no personal items like phones, cars, etc. Essentially a lifestyle of someone in a North American prison except with freedom of movement as the lowest end of the range. And some use production pay that is better than the above in those third world countries. The important point is to translate the cost of the lifestyle into North American dollars to get a good relative comparison of wages.

They can't do the "ship it" option with the NHL because the skill is scarce and the NHL is not treating the players as badly as the companies willing to ship it. However, the language used in some cases like "cattle" and some of the PA quotes is similar to the language used with companies and labor in the "ship it" culture.

 

[Dicdonya]

Not according the many long term contracts that have been signed!

[mod del]

15 year contact ends in 15 years. The league has been around longer than any player has played for. Players careers are finite. A well run league which keeps fan interest can be infinite in length.

So yeah players are temporary. Extremely important, yes, but temporary.

 

[Crows*]

@KatieStrangESPN: #CBA Steve Fehr said two sides had a "frank exchange of views" about what should be included in hockey-related revenue as currently defined

@KatieStrangESPN: #CBA Two sides will meet again tmrw. May go over HRR again, but sounds like Sunday's discussions will center on legal issues, grievances etc

@drosennhl: Steve Fehr said it is a positive that sides are talking but it is very much an up and down process. They will talk tomorrow, too.

@drosennhl: Asked if they will meet Monday to keep momentum going Steve Fehr said "I am always hopeful."

 

[Number 9*]

I have yet to see anyone claim the players are meaningless.



Has anything in your life changed in the last 7 years?

The world changes. Things that may have worked 7 years ago may no longer work now.



Personal attacks are childish and unprofessional. The continued insults of this nature by players towards Bettman are harming their PR war more than helping it. Personal insults by fans toward either party are infantile. This is a business negotiation, thank goodness that, at least publicly, the participants are acting like grown-ups and not stooping to such immature conduct.

Shall we talk about PR?

"things have never been better" "the league and it's franchises are thriving" *“Clearly the cap is going up and that's good for everybody" "My feeling is contracts should always be honored" "Now the team's ability to compete is based upon its hockey, front office and team-building skills, not on the team's ability to pay, ... We have emerged as partners with our players and our fans" "It's also making things (fiscally) healthier at the AHL level as well as the NHL. I feel it already"

 

[LadyStanley]

Mod note: please keep discussion focused on **negotiations**. In so far as talking about the people involved goes, keep it focused on their motivation and labor negotiation history.

Derogatory "personal" comments just derail the thread and make more work for mods.

 

[Number 9*]

Mod note: please keep discussion focused on **negotiations**. In so far as talking about the people involved goes, keep it focused on their motivation and labor negotiation history.

Derogatory "personal" comments just derail the thread and make more work for mods.

One thing that I have not really noticed here is this idea?

How about linkage with RS also. Say they agree to 240m in RS monies to start and if cap goes up so does RS.

Thoughts?

 

[pepty]

When was the last time you saw that sweater and logo skate on the ice without a body in it?

I can't remember the first or the last time I saw such a thing, but it would definitely be an unforgettable experience.

 

[TheTakedown]

I'm hoping todays sessions actually give some pace to start real negotiations.. Its a good start that they were able to try and nail down HRR (though I thought that was already nailed down, but I belive Fehr would like more specifics in my opinion).

My guess is that the NHLPA comes up with some sort of half assed proposal at the end of this coming week, and then the league will discuss over that...

Or even more so, perhaps the PA will try and model a new negotiation and forget about raises short term