Post-Game Talk: On All Hallow's Eve, Bobrovsky came dressed as a sieve. Jets won, 3-2.

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garret9

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You would think so but the fact is we win with Enstrom out of the lineup.

Jets since the move to WPG have a +15 5v5 goal differential with Enstrom on the ice, the highest of all the Jets. No one else is in the double digits.
Jets since the move to WPG have a +33 All-Mins goal differential with Enstrom on the ice, the second highes of all the Jets (Byfuglien is 1st). No one else is in the double digits.

In the games that Enstrom has played, the Jets have scored 52.17 per cent of the goals while Enstrom is on the ice for 5v5 situations, but with Enstrom on the bench the team scores 48.82 per cent of the goals.
For all-mins situations it's even starker, with 53.11 on ice and 45.43 on the bench.

Why do we blame Enstrom for the losing record when the Jets are winning the games when you look just the time on ice with Enstrom actually on the ice?
 

voyageur

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Jul 10, 2011
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Two graphs that show Corsi's meaning:

#1
screen-shot-2014-09-20-at-5-18-23-pm.png

Players that tend to out shoot, also tend to out score.

#2
screen-shot-2014-09-20-at-5-46-34-pm.png

Players that tend to have differences in their Corsi and Goal differentials one season tend not to the next year.

Ok but deductive reasoning would tell you that those players who have the most defensive zones starts are going to have the weakest Corsi, playing against the strongest competition generally. And having the primary responsibility of not only clearing the zone but advancing the puck into a position where they can shoot. That would take at least what 25 seconds out of a 50 second shift? Easier to have a higher shot rate when you are in the offensive zone and win the draw?
 

garret9

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Ok but deductive reasoning would tell you that those players who have the most defensive zones starts are going to have the weakest Corsi, playing against the strongest competition generally. And having the primary responsibility of not only clearing the zone but advancing the puck into a position where they can shoot. That would take at least what 25 seconds out of a 50 second shift? Easier to have a higher shot rate when you are in the offensive zone and win the draw?

Deductive reasoning would tell you that those things would impact goals too...
If it's easier to out shoot, it's also easier to outscore...
So that hurts your numbers, just like mine.

Mine don't have the problem of:
* small samples
* goaltending impacts
* not being TOI sensitive
* not having stupid situations like PK +s and PP-s and empty nets thrown in randomly


HOWEVER, you are also highly overrating those factors.

1) Zone starts impact is actually 7 seconds on average, and also well over 50% of shifts start on the fly. Also, we've discovered that bad players tend to cause a lot of their D-zone starts, like Stuart, who have high numbers of failed chip-out entries that turn into icings or being trapped in their own zone and forced to ice it for a breather.
2) Almost all players from top to bottom see opponents equally amount in terms of percentage of their icetime. Both coaches are trying to get their line matches and also on the fly changes happen all the time. As a random example: a "sheltered" player at the end of the year may see 1st lines 31% of the time, while a "tough mins" player at the end will see maybe 33% of the time.

Also, we've known about these factors for about 10 years, and have worked towards diminishing their value anyways... although it's been shown to need very little adjusting outside of linemate factors.
 
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voyageur

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Jets since the move to WPG have a +15 5v5 goal differential with Enstrom on the ice, the highest of all the Jets. No one else is in the double digits.
Jets since the move to WPG have a +33 All-Mins goal differential with Enstrom on the ice, the second highes of all the Jets (Byfuglien is 1st). No one else is in the double digits.

In the games that Enstrom has played, the Jets have scored 52.17 per cent of the goals while Enstrom is on the ice for 5v5 situations, but with Enstrom on the bench the team scores 48.82 per cent of the goals.
For all-mins situations it's even starker, with 53.11 on ice and 45.43 on the bench.

Why do we blame Enstrom for the losing record when the Jets are winning the games when you look just the time on ice with Enstrom actually on the ice?

Enstrom has been soft, no way around it. Tonight was an example. The Justin Fontaine 5-3 goal against Minny another example. Playing him with Buff has improved his impact, Buff wins alot of battles, the biggest difference I see is that the two support each other very well in clearing out the puck. Good passing improves possession, Buff and Toby are probably the two best passers on D. But boy when you leave Copp and Peluso to hold the blueline jumping in the play something is amiss, didn't cost us tonight. Columbus doesn't have that finish. Make bad reads like that against Plekanec, Pacman, Galchenyuk we will get burned. Tonight's game was good enough. Tomorrow promises to be a beaut.
 

garret9

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Last season Stuart had the 2nd most DZ starts relative to OZ starts, with a 49.08 OZS%.

The 2nd most OZ starts was Postma with 55.10.

Of course this 49.08 and 55.10 ignores neutral zone starts and on the fly starts.

Once you add in neutral zone starts and defensive zone starts it looks like this:

Stuart:
oz - 12%
nz - 15%
dz - 13%

Postma
oz - 14%
nz - 14%
dz - 12%

So super sheltered Postma starts 14% of shifts in OZ vs tough mins Stu 12%. Postma also starts 12% in DZ vs tough mins Stu's 13%.

Zone deployment is an impact, but it's overrated.
QoC (linematching) is an impact, but it's highly overrated.
 

PhilJets

Winnipeg is Good
Jun 24, 2012
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Jets since the move to WPG have a +15 5v5 goal differential with Enstrom on the ice, the highest of all the Jets. No one else is in the double digits.
Jets since the move to WPG have a +33 All-Mins goal differential with Enstrom on the ice, the second highes of all the Jets (Byfuglien is 1st). No one else is in the double digits.

In the games that Enstrom has played, the Jets have scored 52.17 per cent of the goals while Enstrom is on the ice for 5v5 situations, but with Enstrom on the bench the team scores 48.82 per cent of the goals.
For all-mins situations it's even starker, with 53.11 on ice and 45.43 on the bench.

Why do we blame Enstrom for the losing record when the Jets are winning the games when you look just the time on ice with Enstrom actually on the ice?

Just a question,

Can you get Enstrom data without him with LLW. He plays a lot with LLW, i'm not sure but maybe the most out of all the defensemen, since the Jets got here.?
 

Thai jet*

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Oct 23, 2014
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Deductive reasoning would tell you that those things would impact goals too...
If it's easier to out shoot, it's also easier to outscore...
So that hurts your numbers, just like mine.

Mine don't have the problem of:
* small samples
* goaltending impacts
* not being TOI sensitive
* not having stupid situations like PK +s and PP-s and empty nets thrown in randomly


HOWEVER, you are also highly overrating those factors.

1) Zone starts impact is actually 7 seconds on average, and also well over 50% of shifts start on the fly. Also, we've discovered that bad players tend to cause a lot of their D-zone starts, like Stuart, who have high numbers of failed chip-out entries that turn into icings or being trapped in their own zone and forced to ice it for a breather.
2) Almost all players from top to bottom see opponents equally amount in terms of percentage of their icetime. Both coaches are trying to get their line matches and also on the fly changes happen all the time. As a random example: a "sheltered" player at the end of the year may see 1st lines 31% of the time, while a "tough mins" player at the end will see maybe 33% of the time.

Also, we've known about these factors for about 10 years, and have worked towards diminishing their value anyways... although it's been shown to need very little adjusting outside of linemate factors.




I find it pretty hard to believe that say, Burmi & Ehlers, are near equal in playing top competition. I find it very impressive that Burmi's +\- is positive while playing a shutdown role with so many DZS. What does his Corsi tell us?
 

garret9

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Just a question,

Can you get Enstrom data without him with LLW. He plays a lot with LLW, i'm not sure but maybe the most out of all the defensemen, since the Jets got here.?

He does play a lot, but all 3 of our current D play around 30% of their TOI with Little (some more, and some less).

Enstrom without Little:
Jets control 51.3% of goals, still out scoring.

Stuart without Little... well that number is really ugly (and actually worse than his Corsi%).
 

garret9

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I find it pretty hard to believe that say, Burmi & Ehlers, are near equal in playing top competition. I find it very impressive that Burmi's +\- is positive while playing a shutdown role with so many DZS. What does his Corsi tell us?

I'm talking about the scale of a full season.
When we're the visiting team, Maurice isn't going to be able to take Burmi out on the top lines and shelter Ehlers.

Just to illustrate the difference, here is all the NHLers for every non-lockout season that we have numbers for:
uni-tm-and-op-cf.png


^ As you can see, the spread in QoT (TMCF%, linemate Corsi%) is far larger than the spread in QoC (OppCF%, linematching Corsi%).
 

PhilJets

Winnipeg is Good
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Yeah, I remember that narrative being thrown around until somebody pointed out that the Jets were statistically better-than-average against bad teams -- I think it was something like against the bottom N teams that gave up 75% of all possible points, the Jets scored over 80% of all possible points.

Jets are 100% so far this year against none playoff teams. Though it is early.

80% means, you lost how many games to none playoff bottom dwelling teams? Maybe 6 to 10 points in each years prior to last year when the Jets didn't make the playoffs.


The way central is going 75% - 80% winning % against bottom dwelling team, Jets might miss the playoff. Jets need to be good , almost perfect.

The point is, Jets were losing more than their share against these teams. Base on the % mentioned above 75 - 80. I guess that is correct as Jets are middle of the pack team since they got here, only 1 playoff appearance. Is that good?

This year so far they have kept themselves in the top 10.
 

garret9

AKA#VitoCorrelationi
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Yeah, I remember that narrative being thrown around until somebody pointed out that the Jets were statistically better-than-average against bad teams -- I think it was something like against the bottom N teams that gave up 75% of all possible points, the Jets scored over 80% of all possible points.

Jets won more games and had better Corsi against teams with worse records and against teams with worse Corsi than themselves.

The reason why people tend to think things like this is because you remember the games you feel you were likely to win, but don't, and vice versa.
 

PhilJets

Winnipeg is Good
Jun 24, 2012
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He does play a lot, but all 3 of our current D play around 30% of their TOI with Little (some more, and some less).

Enstrom without Little:
Jets control 51.3% of goals, still out scoring.

Stuart without Little... well that number is really ugly (and actually worse than his Corsi%).

OK thanks,

I remember from the first couple of years. Enstrom gets deployed a lot with Buff together with the LLW.

LLW was good then, but i think they are in another gear now.

Well next game is against the Habs, ore finest game. I hope ESP line get some needed ice time.

:handclap:
 

Ducky10

Searching for Mark Scheifele
Nov 14, 2014
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Enstrom has been soft, no way around it. Tonight was an example.

Enstrom has been good, almost everything supports that, including the eye test, unless you're looking for it not to.
 

Holden Caulfield

Eternal Skeptic
Feb 15, 2006
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enstrom is one of the top d in the nhl out front of his own net. watch how well he boxes people out. thats how you play defense in 2015 out front, the era of "crease clearing" d is over. you dont need to clear the crease if players cant get to the crease and you can then quickly turn puck up ice. wonderful.
 

Mathmew Purrrr Oh

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Apr 18, 2013
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enstrom is one of the top d in the nhl out front of his own net. watch how well he boxes people out. thats how you play defense in 2015 out front, the era of "crease clearing" d is over. you dont need to clear the crease if players cant get to the crease and you can then quickly turn puck up ice. wonderful.

this

allows almost nothing from the slot
 
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