Prospect Info: Olli Juolevi, Pt. V

[CanaFan]

Aaaaaaand another one bites the dust. Good luck Olli. I don't mind you as a prospect nearly as much as some of the [carefully chosen adjective] that rabidly defend the smallest slights to your honour.

 

[Snatcher Demko]

Obviously a bad pick but there's nothing that can be done but to preach patience and hope that he just needs to get healthy to regain (or develop) the strength to defend better at a pro level.

OJ's hockey IQ is good enough to make the pros, which is why I still have some hope for the kid.

 

[Pavel96]

So Juolevi, who has already played in North America (CHL) and Pro (Liiga), needed another season to play the specific combination of North America + Pro?

When it comes to Olli, you have to back up the excuse truck and just keep them coming - year after year. It's amazing that his junior teammate (the one who plays the same position) picked in the fourth round of the same draft has already played 120 NHL games.

 

[MS]

Obviously a bad pick but there's nothing that can be done but to preach patience and hope that he just needs to get healthy to regain (or develop) the strength to defend better at a pro level.

OJ's hockey IQ is good enough to make the pros, which is why I still have some hope for the kid.

The strength thing is a bit of a red herring. There are plenty of guys his size and strength in the NHL. People act like he’s 5’11 140 or something instead of 6’3 190.

The issue is that he is quite simply one of the softest players I’ve ever seen. Just totally allergic to physical contact and refuses to engage physically and put his body between opposition players and his goal. Plays like opponents have cooties and he doesn’t want to touch them. Couple that with being slow and it’s a mess in his own zone.

If he could grow a set he’d have a chance because the skill level is there but playing the way he does now he’ll never stick in the NHL as a competent regular.

 

[Jack Burton]

The issue is that he is quite simply one of the softest players I’ve ever seen.

Bingo!

His stick checks drive me nutz!

I'll give him 1 chance.

1

 

[Love]

The strength thing is a bit of a red herring. There are plenty of guys his size and strength in the NHL. People act like he’s 5’11 140 or something instead of 6’3 190.

The issue is that he is quite simply one of the softest players I’ve ever seen. Just totally allergic to physical contact and refuses to engage physically and put his body between opposition players and his goal. Plays like opponents have cooties and he doesn’t want to touch them. Couple that with being slow and it’s a mess in his own zone.

If he could grow a set he’d have a chance because the skill level is there but playing the way he does now he’ll never stick in the NHL as a competent regular.

This is exactly right.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

When it comes to Olli, you have to back up the excuse truck and just keep them coming - year after year. It's amazing that his junior teammate (the one who plays the same position) picked in the fourth round of the same draft has already played 120 NHL games.

This is crap. I've said that I'm frustrated with the lack of NHL games from him.

Let me ask you honestly, if Juolevi had stayed healthy this past season, how many NHL games do you think he would've played? Sautner played 17 games and Brisebois played 8 games. I think it would've been 20+. Still not where we would've wanted a 5th overall.

It's not excuses, it's the reality of the situation. He unfortunately got injured and it took away the season from him. That's a fact, not an excuse.

 

[MS]

This is crap. I've said that I'm frustrated with the lack of NHL games from him.

Let me ask you honestly, if Juolevi had stayed healthy this past season, how many NHL games do you think he would've played? Sautner played 17 games and Brisebois played 8 games. I think it would've been 20+. Still not where we would've wanted a 5th overall.

It's not excuses, it's the reality of the situation. He unfortunately got injured and it took away the season from him. That's a fact, not an excuse.

Sautner is on a different planet defensively and a far better player right now. Sautner basically plays the Chris Tanev role for the Comets while Juolevi was being babysat on the 3rd pairing and not put on the ice for defensive zone faceoffs.

Sautner getting called up does not mean Juolevi would have been or deserved to be. At the time he was hurt he was getting destroyed defensively in soft minutes in the AHL.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

Sautner is on a different planet defensively and a far better player right now. Sautner basically plays the Chris Tanev role for the Comets while Juolevi was being babysat on the 3rd pairing and not put on the ice for defensive zone faceoffs.

Sautner getting called up does not mean Juolevi would have been or deserved to be. At the time he was hurt he was getting destroyed defensively in soft minutes in the AHL.

Juolevi definitely needs to work on his defensive game and did not look good enough in the 18 games, but what I keep reading is that a lot of posters here seem to think his development is done and he wouldn't have been able to improve throughout the season had he not been injured. It really seems like the negatives are getting highlighted over and over and over again, and because of that, they are getting overblown. All this is happening while his positives (his offensive production) just gets ignored and dismissed.

For me, it's time to move on from the fact that Juolevi is not a good 5th overall pick and its time to adjust the expectations. Unfortunately the timeline has been completely messed up due to his two surgeries. This season is an absolutely massive year for Juolevi, if he can't find a way to push his way onto the Canucks and play regularly in the top 6 by the end of the season, he will be likely on his way back over Finland for his pro career.

 

[Snatcher Demko]

The strength thing is a bit of a red herring. There are plenty of guys his size and strength in the NHL. People act like he’s 5’11 140 or something instead of 6’3 190.

The issue is that he is quite simply one of the softest players I’ve ever seen. Just totally allergic to physical contact and refuses to engage physically and put his body between opposition players and his goal. Plays like opponents have cooties and he doesn’t want to touch them. Couple that with being slow and it’s a mess in his own zone.

If he could grow a set he’d have a chance because the skill level is there but playing the way he does now he’ll never stick in the NHL as a competent regular.

I think Salo said (before OJ's latest injury) that he needed to spend a summer getting stronger. I never got the sense the kid lacked confidence (from his interviews it was quite the opposite) so you have to wonder if his injuries were a factor in his unwillingness to play the body. Of course the AHL is a tough league and it's reasonable to think this led to confidence issues as well.

That's why it's difficult to assess the kids future, at least from my vantage point.

 

[MS]

I think Salo said (before OJ's latest injury) that he needed to spend a summer getting stronger. I never got the sense the kid lacked confidence (from his interviews it was quite the opposite) so you have to wonder if his injuries were a factor in his unwillingness to play the body. Of course the AHL is a tough league and it's reasonable to think this led to confidence issues as well.

That's why it's difficult to assess the kids future, at least from my vantage point.

This is not a new thing. It was exactly how he played in his draft+1 in London and was heavily criticized for, and he was 100% healthy then.

 

[Pavel96]

This is crap. I've said that I'm frustrated with the lack of NHL games from him.

Let me ask you honestly, if Juolevi had stayed healthy this past season, how many NHL games do you think he would've played? Sautner played 17 games and Brisebois played 8 games. I think it would've been 20+. Still not where we would've wanted a 5th overall.

It's not excuses, it's the reality of the situation. He unfortunately got injured and it took away the season from him. That's a fact, not an excuse.

So **if** he had stayed healthy the 'score' would 120 - 20 and this is crap to you? What's the excuse, err fact for why a 4th round pick has played 100 more games than Olli, in no-excuse, yet still, fantasy land?

I really don't care to guess how many games I think he'd play if it were fantasy land. What I'd really like to see is a 5th overall player, that was compared to Nicklas Lidstrom, play his first NHL season in reality, while so many drafted after him light it up in the NHL, in reality. Not in best case scenario fantasy land - wherever that is.

 

[TruGr1t]

Sautner is on a different planet defensively and a far better player right now. Sautner basically plays the Chris Tanev role for the Comets while Juolevi was being babysat on the 3rd pairing and not put on the ice for defensive zone faceoffs.

Sautner getting called up does not mean Juolevi would have been or deserved to be. At the time he was hurt he was getting destroyed defensively in soft minutes in the AHL.

I can help out here with some context.

Back in Nov. 2018, when Juolevi was in the midst of his good run in Utica, Mike Halford interviewed Comets assistant Gary Agnew. At that time, Agnew said the following:

I think that Chatfield, Brisebois and even [Ashton] Sautner are call-ups that are certainly closer at this point to being NHL full-timers. I don’t think Olli’s far away, but I think you’ve got to be really careful with how you decide when...

Interesting article overall, which does get into Juolevi's defensive struggles (specifically gap control and engagement). Given he was in the midst of somewhat of a scoring spree at the time, I believe, Agnew is obviously pretty complimentary about his offensive skills (specifically on the PP).

Basic take-away though was that Chatfield, Brisebois and Sautner were all higher on the depth chart at the time (first 16 games of Utica's 2018/19 season). That was, unfortunately, 2 games before Juolevi's injury.

Link for those with an Athletic subscription: Olli Juolevi's scoring plenty in the AHL — so when will he...

 

[CanaFan]

I can help out here with some context.

Back in Nov. 2018, when Juolevi was in the midst of his good run in Utica, Mike Halford interviewed Comets assistant Gary Agnew. At that time, Agnew said the following:

Interesting article overall, which does get into Juolevi's defensive struggles (specifically gap control and engagement). Given he was in the midst of somewhat of a scoring spree at the time, I believe, Agnew is obviously pretty complimentary about his offensive skills (specifically on the PP).

Basic take-away though was that Chatfield, Brisebois and Sautner were all higher on the depth chart at the time (first 16 games of Utica's 2018/19 season). That was, unfortunately, 2 games before Juolevi's injury.

Link for those with an Athletic subscription: Olli Juolevi's scoring plenty in the AHL — so when will he...

Think it’s relevant to the discussion to share this small portion of that interview:

Q:
Now to the other side of the stat ledger — the minus-11 rating. I hate referencing plus/minus, but it does stand out. The worst rating on the team. What are the contributing factors there?

A:
I think anytime you talk about plus/minus, the stat can be skewed one way or another whether it’s positive or negative. But I would say from the overall perspective — getting used to being a pro, learning the game — most young defencemen need to learn how to defend against men. You’re not dealing with young guys anymore. You’re dealing with 27-, 28-year-old seasoned pros and sometimes it’s difficult in a one-on-one battle or a box out in front of the net.

Certainly he’s not fully responsible for all those minuses. But when there’s a little bit of a trend, there’s a trend. Obviously it’s a part of the game that we’re working hard with him at, and he’s very receptive to coaching. He’s eager to learn and he wants to be better. He’s doing all the things that you hope a high prospect does, in terms of his coachability.

Bolded is as close as you’re going to hear a coach come to being honest about a young player’s struggles. They are very careful to phrase everything in positive terms so this is telling. The argument shouldn’t be about whether Juolevi was struggling on the defensive side of the puck - he clearly was - but rather how much of that can be attributed to his off season back surgery.

 

[NoRaise4Brackett]

Nevermind.

 

[Bad Goalie]

The strength thing is a bit of a red herring. There are plenty of guys his size and strength in the NHL. People act like he’s 5’11 140 or something instead of 6’3 190.

The issue is that he is quite simply one of the softest players I’ve ever seen. Just totally allergic to physical contact and refuses to engage physically and put his body between opposition players and his goal. Plays like opponents have cooties and he doesn’t want to touch them. Couple that with being slow and it’s a mess in his own zone.

If he could grow a set he’d have a chance because the skill level is there but playing the way he does now he’ll never stick in the NHL as a competent regular.

Juolevi started the season paired with Chatfield. I believe the feeling was he should be able to carry an undrafted, energetic, hard working, second year D-man allowing every pairing to have either an experienced or high level developing player who needed to show his ability to carry a heavy load. The Juolevi/Chatfield pairing was a disaster. Chatfield needs a vet! Juolevi ended up revealing he had to be sheltered big time in order to have him available for the power play and was paired with the team's most capable defensive veteran D-man, Sifers, and he was still everything you, other Vancouver posters who watched his Utica games, and the Utica posters who were right on top of him have described since he first stepped onto the ice in Utica.

People claiming he was getting better and if not injured, would have got his game up to at least standard for the AHL. are wrong. Those statements are purely speculative and seem to be based upon one factor and one factor alone and that factor would be the only positive you can attach to him, 13 points in 18 games played.

Before he got injured his defensive game was getting worse game by game, not better. Probably getting the snot knocked out of him and flattened to the ice by a forechecker along the half boards and having to have Sifers step up and attack the guy and after the penalties were served Arseneau went after the guy again, might have contributed even more to his already determined effort to stay away from contact. After that he never even tried to initiate any physicality on his own in any area of the ice in his own end let alone anywhere else in the rink. He never even leaned on an opponent. Stick check was his most aggressive move. The guy not only continued to play a soft game, but actually assessed, on the fly, where and when he might encounter contact and made an obvious effort to avoid it.

I hope his supporters in this discussion get their wish and Benning instructs Green and Co. to give him every possible chance to make the Canucks roster. Sifers has retired. If McEneny is for some some reason re-signed (he is currently a UFA) after yet another season ending knee injury/operation/ rehab, he will be playing on less than one leg. That will make Sautner the team's most "veteran D-man". Dylan Blujus has played a few more AHL games, but he is only on an AHL contract and has thus, been used in the Biega role in Utica, the #7 D-man. Add these 2 guys to Brisebois and Chatfield and you will have 4 defenders who have played at least 2 seasons. Then we have 3 rookies in Eliot, Rafferty, and Teves. That would mean Sautner, Blujus, and Brisebois get to carry 3 of the others and none are the defensive stalwarts that Juolevi needed to stay afloat while still going -12 in in his 18 GP. I know +/- can be misleading, but in his case and I can assure you he was a or the prime contributor on most of those goals. He gave 2 pucks directly to the high pk guy for breakaway goals and specialty play goals don't figure in on +/- stats. All you had to do to get him to cough up the puck was make a beeline for him and threw it away to avoid the collision that was coming.

He actually needs a real strong veteran defender like Biega or Schenn. If he is sent here again without a player of that caliber, it could end up even worse than last time. Benning has a real habit of sending prospects to Utica without the essential parts they need to succeed.

He can pass with the best at any level when he has time and space. His passes are tape to tape no matter the length of the pass. He, however, did not walk the blue line to open a lane for his own shot or give him even better targets for a pass. These few issues account for why 12 of his 13 points were assists. Perfect feeds for Boucher's killer one timer on the PP got him a few of them.

IMO his play here did not cause me to believe I was watching a future everyday NHL D-man and the #5 OA moniker was difficult to fathom.. He doesn't have just a few wrinkles to work out. It's not just a lack of confidence. His interviews reveal an almost arrogant belief in himself. It's not just adjusting to the smaller rink, though that has made the physical part of the North American game a lot more difficult for him to avoid because players are on him much faster than he is accustomed to. It's not strength, since he has never exhibited the employment of such an asset anyways. Good puck handlers go by him like he's a pylon in stick handling drills and lesser skilled guys drop their shoulders down and hold the puck out wide of his poke check and muscle their way past him. That indicates a skating weakness. The fact that he doesn't take the puck and skate it out of trouble at least once in a while reveals another skating question. This kid has an actual North American pro game to assemble. His European style will not assimilate to the small ice, physicality, and increased speed of the NA pro game and all of these issues will be magnified in the NHL.

That's kind of a synopsis of my past posts on this player. I don't believe I have anything more to add that hasn't been posted before.

 

[Pavel96]

Because we're a **** team that has missed playoffs 4 years in a row and have only a small handful of NHL quality talent anywhere in sight - EP, Boeser, Horvat, Hughes - nearly all of which have come exclusively through the high draft picks awarded for these terrible seasons. This small group should be larger by at least 1 player, given that we had several high end options sitting there at 5th overall in 2016 but instead picked a player who is tracking like a 2nd rounder. Thus this simmering pile of a "rebuild" is further delayed because of that decision and more terrible hockey is what we have to look forward to for the foreseeable future. I mean, I would love to just "get over it and move on", but until this team is actually decently competitive again, it just isn't that simple.

Back in full force- niceee.

 

[MS]

Juolevi definitely needs to work on his defensive game and did not look good enough in the 18 games, but what I keep reading is that a lot of posters here seem to think his development is done and he wouldn't have been able to improve throughout the season had he not been injured. It really seems like the negatives are getting highlighted over and over and over again, and because of that, they are getting overblown. All this is happening while his positives (his offensive production) just gets ignored and dismissed.

For me, it's time to move on from the fact that Juolevi is not a good 5th overall pick and its time to adjust the expectations. Unfortunately the timeline has been completely messed up due to his two surgeries. This season is an absolutely massive year for Juolevi, if he can't find a way to push his way onto the Canucks and play regularly in the top 6 by the end of the season, he will be likely on his way back over Finland for his pro career.

1. I don't think his development is done. But he isn't even close to being an NHL player. He could improve substantially and still end up being a bust.

2. This isn't just due to injuries. He was a total flop in his draft+1 in London showing all the same problems with his game and was perfectly healthy then.

3. His negatives are really bad. They are not being overblown. Like, if you took the 400 defenders who have NHL contracts right now, he might be the single softest, most contact-averse guy.

4. He absolutely does have positives. As I've taken care to say many times, his hands and passing ability are outstanding and his PP work projects well. The problem is that you have to be able to defend at ES in order to be worth carrying on the roster to show those PP skills.

 

[Snatcher Demko]

1. I don't think his development is done. But he isn't even close to being an NHL player. He could improve substantially and still end up being a bust.

2. This isn't just due to injuries. He was a total flop in his draft+1 in London showing all the same problems with his game and was perfectly healthy then.

3. His negatives are really bad. They are not being overblown. Like, if you took the 400 defenders who have NHL contracts right now, he might be the single softest, most contact-averse guy.

4. He absolutely does have positives. As I've taken care to say many times, his hands and passing ability are outstanding and his PP work projects well. The problem is that you have to be able to defend at ES in order to be worth carrying on the roster to show those PP skills.

Yes, I agree with you, his D+1 was very poor and his engagement was a part of it. Clearly he needs to mature mentally and decide if he wants to do what it takes to be a pro.

Obviously this is shaping up to be a make-or-break year for him.

 

[MS]

Yes, I agree with you, his D+1 was very poor and his engagement was a part of it. Clearly he needs to mature mentally and decide if he wants to do what it takes to be a pro.

Obviously this is shaping up to be a make-or-break year for him.

Absolutely. It's a massive year.

The injuries are incredibly unfortunate especially because his biggest thing is that he needs to grow some balls and engage physically and take hits and contact to make plays ... and injuries tend to make players more timid and contact-averse, if anything.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

1. I don't think his development is done. But he isn't even close to being an NHL player. He could improve substantially and still end up being a bust.

2. This isn't just due to injuries. He was a total flop in his draft+1 in London showing all the same problems with his game and was perfectly healthy then.

3. His negatives are really bad. They are not being overblown. Like, if you took the 400 defenders who have NHL contracts right now, he might be the single softest, most contact-averse guy.

4. He absolutely does have positives. As I've taken care to say many times, his hands and passing ability are outstanding and his PP work projects well. The problem is that you have to be able to defend at ES in order to be worth carrying on the roster to show those PP skills.

If we go by what the coaches thoughts were in November, Juolevi was at that time a lot closer to the NHL than you are letting on. Thanks to TruGr1t for finding them.

I think that Chatfield, Brisebois and even [Ashton] Sautner are call-ups that are certainly closer at this point to being NHL full-timers. I don’t think Olli’s far away, but I think you’ve got to be really careful with how you decide when...

I think Juolevi did a good job recovering from a very disappointing D+1 season when he went back to Finland. I think he had developed some bad habits in London that took a lot longer than anyone expected to work out of his game. At the end of his D+2 season, he wasn't back on track but he was looking a lot more promising again. There are issues that are not injury related, had there not been, he'd have been in the NHL in his D+2 season not in Finland.

This upcoming season is the make or break season for Juolevi. I've stated this multiple times.

I just feel that there doesn't seem to be enough rationalization of what has happened, and too much harping on his draft position and negatives (see Point 3, I feel like that is just a hyperbolization of his issues to prove your point).

As I've said before as well, there are reasons to be concerned about Juolevi's development and future. I do think that the injuries have derailed what was an already a frustrating development.

 

[MS]

If we go by what the coaches thoughts were in November, Juolevi was at that time a lot closer to the NHL than you are letting on. Thanks to TruGr1t for finding them.

I think that Chatfield, Brisebois and even [Ashton] Sautner are call-ups that are certainly closer at this point to being NHL full-timers. I don’t think Olli’s far away, but I think you’ve got to be really careful with how you decide when...

I think Juolevi did a good job recovering from a very disappointing D+1 season when he went back to Finland. I think he had developed some bad habits in London that took a lot longer than anyone expected to work out of his game. At the end of his D+2 season, he wasn't back on track but he was looking a lot more promising again. There are issues that are not injury related, had there not been, he'd have been in the NHL in his D+2 season not in Finland.

This upcoming season is the make or break season for Juolevi. I've stated this multiple times.

I just feel that there doesn't seem to be enough rationalization of what has happened, and too much harping on his draft position and negatives (see Point 3, I feel like that is just a hyperbolization of his issues to prove your point).

As I've said before as well, there are reasons to be concerned about Juolevi's development and future. I do think that the injuries have derailed what was an already a frustrating development.

Listing a guy as the 4th-best callup option on a bad defense that had only 4 guys on NHL contracts isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. Trust me, he was not close to being a callup. If your AHL coaches don't trust you to take a defensive zone faceoff at that level, you aren't close to the NHL. That quote sounds like a coach trying to be political about a question and not trash a struggling young player.

Unfortunately I saw very little of his season in Finland outside of the WJCs so I can't really comment on what happened there. He seemed to have a mediocre regular season and then a strong finish/playoffs. Everything I saw of him in Utica was 100% consistent with what I saw from him in London and at the WJC and in NHL preseason games.

Criticism of his compete level is not hyperbolic. It's really bad.

 

[DonnyNucker]

Listing a guy as the 4th-best callup option on a bad defense that had only 4 guys on NHL contracts isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. Trust me, he was not close to being a callup. If your AHL coaches don't trust you to take a defensive zone faceoff at that level, you aren't close to the NHL. That quote sounds like a coach trying to be political about a question and not trash a struggling young player.

Unfortunately I saw very little of his season in Finland outside of the WJCs so I can't really comment on what happened there. He seemed to have a mediocre regular season and then a strong finish/playoffs. Everything I saw of him in Utica was 100% consistent with what I saw from him in London and at the WJC and in NHL preseason games.

Criticism of his compete level is not hyperbolic. It's really bad.

We need to hire Willie D as a consultant and get Juolevi to watch some Pronger footage

 

[nergish]

Here's a list of ALL dmen taken in the top 10 of the NHL draft going back 12 years that played less than 50 NHL games by the time their d+3 season was finished.

Thomas Hickey
Keaton Ellerby
Dylan McIlrath
Derek Pouliot
Griffin Reinhart
Haydn Fleury
Olli Juolevi

The idea that Juolevi was EXPECTED to take a long time to develop shows a complete lack of understanding of prospect development.

Olli was like 1-2 weeks away from being called up before his injury...
Nobody was EXPECTING him to blow his knee out.

 

[Krnuckfan]

Olli was like 1-2 weeks away from being called up before his injury...
Nobody was EXPECTING him to blow his knee out.

No he wasn't. According to utica posters he was terrible defensively in the AHL. What makes you think he was close to a call up? One of Utica's assistant coaches said in an interview that mceneny, brisbois, and chatfield were closer to being full time NHLers than Juolevi is.