Prospect Info: Olli Juolevi, Pt. V

[RobertKron]

Posters have turned that into Benning expects Juolevi to make the squad in October...Thats not what he said.

Anyway, let's bring this whole thing back to where it should still be. POM has made the claim that posters - plural - have claimed the above. The burden is still on them to provide examples.

 

[Javaman]

There are top picks and there are late bloomers but there are virtually zero top picks who are also late bloomers.

Top picks generally make the NHL quickly or not at all, as you say.

Your logic and fact-based argumentation is clearly just a smokescreen to hide your irrational hatred of Benning.

/sarcasm

 

[Pavel96]

He has the 'hockey sense' to not look out of place..and says physically probably not.
Every #1 draft pick has a shot to make the team...90% dont
Before you make the team ..you have to make it at camp...yes or no?...Nowhere did Benning say or imply he 'believes the kid be ready to play in October

It's really simple, but not if you twist it to fit your narrative.

Benning is literally asked by a reporter - "All these prospects say they want to come to camp to compete, and think they have a shot to make the team, does Juolevi stand any opportunity next ..."

Benning's exact answer - " Well he's got the hockey sense to step in and play, like the pace of the NHL game is not going to affect him. He needs to get physically stronger though, um like he's almost 6'3, he's 183 lbs right now, 182, you know so if he he has a good summer and adds strength to his frame, but he's the type of guy that because he's so smart and he reads the play so well, he could come in and not look out of place.

The reporter then asks him about the american league, is that an option for him- as Jim does not bring it up but says another year of junior wouldn't hurt him.

So Benning clearly says "pace of the NHL game", not the pace of a NHL camp. Benning never mentions the word camp, because the reporter's question is specifically about all prospects (not #1 draft picks like you are twisting it to for some reason) who want to have a shot to make the team and if Juolevi has that opportunity. That's what the reporter specifically asked Benning about, so maybe it speaks to Jim's much talked about, err incompetence, if he could not understand the question and instead chose to speak about Olli's chance at making it at camp (whatever making it at camp means?).

The only reason Benning mentions why he may not make the team is is lack of strength, but he specifically says "if he has a good summer of training". Not a good year, or half season, but a summer. He doesn't have to make camp, its ridiculous that it's being twisted into that, but here we are weeks later.

Just looking forward to seeing olli play his first NHL game. Wonder if that will happen before the 4th round selection and his junior teammate becomes eligible for his NHL pension?

 

[Javaman]

It's really simple, but not if you twist it to fit your narrative.

Benning is literally asked by a reporter - "All these prospects say they want to come to camp to compete, and think they have a shot to make the team, does Juolevi stand any opportunity next ..."

Benning's exact answer - " Well he's got the hockey sense to step in and play, like the pace of the NHL game is not going to affect him. He needs to get physically stronger though, um like he's almost 6'3, he's 183 lbs right now, 182, you know so if he he has a good summer and adds strength to his frame, but he's the type of guy that because he's so smart and he reads the play so well, he could come in and not look out of place.

The reporter then asks him about the american league, is that an option for him- as Jim does not bring it up but says another year of junior wouldn't hurt him.

So Benning clearly says "pace of the NHL game", not the pace of a NHL camp. Benning never mentions the word camp, because the reporter's question is specifically about all prospects (not #1 draft picks like you are twisting it to for some reason) who want to have a shot to make the team and if Juolevi has that opportunity. That's what the reporter specifically asked Benning about, so maybe it speaks to Jim's much talked about, err incompetence, if he could not understand the question and instead chose to speak about Olli's chance at making it at camp (whatever making it at camp means?).

The only reason Benning mentions why he may not make the team is is lack of strength, but he specifically says "if he has a good summer of training". Not a good year, or half season, but a summer. He doesn't have to make camp, its ridiculous that it's being twisted into that, but here we are weeks later.

Just looking forward to seeing olli play his first NHL game. Wonder if that will happen before the 4th round selection and his junior teammate becomes eligible for his NHL pension?

Okay, someone more technologically competent than me needs to insert of gif of Gollum lamenting "It burns" with the caption of "Truth."

Just saying.

 

[MS]

It's really simple, but not if you twist it to fit your narrative.

Benning is literally asked by a reporter - "All these prospects say they want to come to camp to compete, and think they have a shot to make the team, does Juolevi stand any opportunity next ..."

Benning's exact answer - " Well he's got the hockey sense to step in and play, like the pace of the NHL game is not going to affect him. He needs to get physically stronger though, um like he's almost 6'3, he's 183 lbs right now, 182, you know so if he he has a good summer and adds strength to his frame, but he's the type of guy that because he's so smart and he reads the play so well, he could come in and not look out of place.

The reporter then asks him about the american league, is that an option for him- as Jim does not bring it up but says another year of junior wouldn't hurt him.

So Benning clearly says "pace of the NHL game", not the pace of a NHL camp. Benning never mentions the word camp, because the reporter's question is specifically about all prospects (not #1 draft picks like you are twisting it to for some reason) who want to have a shot to make the team and if Juolevi has that opportunity. That's what the reporter specifically asked Benning about, so maybe it speaks to Jim's much talked about, err incompetence, if he could not understand the question and instead chose to speak about Olli's chance at making it at camp (whatever making it at camp means?).

The only reason Benning mentions why he may not make the team is is lack of strength, but he specifically says "if he has a good summer of training". Not a good year, or half season, but a summer. He doesn't have to make camp, its ridiculous that it's being twisted into that, but here we are weeks later.

Just looking forward to seeing olli play his first NHL game. Wonder if that will happen before the 4th round selection and his junior teammate becomes eligible for his NHL pension?

This revisionist notion that Juolevi was some sort of long-range project is probably the biggest nonsense defense of Benning since ‘fewer draft picks help him focus better!’

And it doesn’t even make any sense. If Benning for some stupid reason decided to knowingly take a long-term project at #5 overall given the other players on the board, that’s *far worse* that just getting the projecting wrong on Juolevi. Like, if you think he actually took a long-term project at #5 overall, you should be outraged.

 

[RobertKron]

This revisionist notion that Juolevi was some sort of long-range project is probably the biggest nonsense defense of Benning since ‘fewer draft picks help him focus better!’

And it doesn’t even make any sense. If Benning for some stupid reason decided to knowingly take a long-term project at #5 overall given the other players on the board, that’s *far worse* that just getting the projecting wrong on Juolevi. Like, if you think he actually took a long-term project at #5 overall, you should be outraged.

BUT DEFENSEMEN TAKE LONGER

 

[Javaman]

It seems to me that any optimistic projection of OJ's NHL potential begins and ends with his performance in the AHL this season.

If a healthy OJ doesn't dominate the AHL as an all-purpose defenseman, it's probably time to close the book on him. Harsh I know, but top 5 picks rarely take that long to develop into NHL players.

 

[MS]

It seems to me that any optimistic projection of OJ's NHL potential begins and ends with his performance in the AHL this season.

If a healthy OJ doesn't dominate the AHL as an all-purpose defenseman, it's probably time to close the book on him. Harsh I know, but top 5 picks rarely take that long to develop into NHL players.

Oh, absolutely.

If Juolevi isn’t a top-pairing high-leverage guy in the AHL by the second half of next season, stick a fork in him.

 

[Pavel96]

This revisionist notion that Juolevi was some sort of long-range project is probably the biggest nonsense defense of Benning since ‘fewer draft picks help him focus better!’

And it doesn’t even make any sense. If Benning for some stupid reason decided to knowingly take a long-term project at #5 overall given the other players on the board, that’s *far worse* that just getting the projecting wrong on Juolevi. Like, if you think he actually took a long-term project at #5 overall, you should be outraged.

Exactly. It just bothered me weeks ago when the word "camp" was actually inserted into what appeared to be a fabricated quote of Benning. I watched the video, Benning did not say 'camp' so why insert it with quotations into Benning's statement?

Especially when all it does is imply what you wrote - that you picked a long term project, as the first dman selected in the draft, and then compared him to Nicklas Lidstrom. Who just happened to play 80 games as a 21 year old in what can only be imagined as a more dangerous time to start your NHL career (injury wise for a non physical dman whose only apparent setback is his lack of strength). Lidstrom also was a +36 with 60 points that year but, he actually is Nicklas Lidstrom, so you know there's that.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

‘fewer draft picks help him focus better!’

Oh jeezus, has that actually been argued here? That reads like whoever posted it was actually lampooning Benning. I had a small chuckle to myself when I read it.

 

[krutovsdonut]

If clearly fabricating a quote and then using it to support your argument isn't a joke, what would you call it?

it's always fun to read an internet bun fight and then imagine the people involved saying what they typed out loud to the face of the other person.

he didn't fabricate a quote. he paraphrased a quote in the same way as the journalist who was there understood it, as is plain from the sentences the journalists used to paraphrase the same quotes. at the very least it is fair comment. it is nowhere near "fabricating".

also, saying someone fabricated a quote is calling them a liar. which is flaming and completely untrue.

which brings up an irony here. your allegation is false and i believe you know that. that would make you a liar, and a nasty mean spirited deliberate one too. you are bored so you are personally attacking and flaming a poster here because you do disagree with him.

we all understand there is nothing going on in hockey, so maybe you should take a break instead of attacking posters here you don't like with ridiculous personal insults.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Those aren't even the words the poster wrote. POM is arguing against a made up position. Again.

they are the words of the journalist who conducted the interview, who is likely to have understood benning's meaning better than, say, you.

 

[krutovsdonut]

not a fan of Benning, and I personally don't agree that the Boeser and Pettersson drafts he gets no credit but the Juolevi pick is all on him? Judd Bracket was in charge, and if the scouting staff as a whole thought Juolevi was the better pick then Tkachuk, then the entire scouting team is at fault for drafting Juolevi. Jim Benning is not going to override the entire scouting teams ranking and make a Tkachuk like pick if his crew thinks juolevi is better.

yep.

if evidence emerges the scouting staff wanted tkachuk (or anyone else) and got overridden then that is one thing. otherwise, they all wear juolevi the same as pettersson.

 

[krutovsdonut]

meanwhile, what we re discussing here is that juolevi did not make a leap that first year or the second year that management wanted so as to make the team. the progression they hoped to see post draft that would get him to the nhl did not happen.

that hope is what benning was talking about.

amazing how much ink is spilled parsing that detail.

meanwhile, i can't wait to see if he stinks in camp this year or finally has his act together.

 

[RobertKron]

they are the words of the journalist who conducted the interview, who is likely to have understood benning's meaning better than, say, you.

So POM thinks that journalist is a poster on HFboards?

Actually, what the f*** are you even talking about? Like, follow that chain of comments back to my original one, and please explain how what you're saying makes sense in context?

 

[WTG]

Oh, absolutely.

If Juolevi isn’t a top-pairing high-leverage guy in the AHL by the second half of next season, stick a fork in him.

Disagree, don't wait for him to fail. Just trade him now.
He isn't in the teams plan with Hughes there and it's not like it's hard to find a 2nd pairing LHD to fill in once Hughes is ready and Edler retires.

Canucks do not need Juolevi. Trade him.

 

[Pavel96]

it's always fun to read an internet bun fight and then imagine the people involved saying what they typed out loud to the face of the other person.

he didn't fabricate a quote. he paraphrased a quote in the same way as the journalist who was there understood it, as is plain from the sentences the journalists used to paraphrase the same quotes. at the very least it is fair comment. it is nowhere near "fabricating".

also, saying someone fabricated a quote is calling them a liar. which is flaming and completely untrue.

which brings up an irony here. your allegation is false and i believe you know that. that would make you a liar, and a nasty mean spirited deliberate one too. you are bored so you are personally attacking and flaming a poster here because you do disagree with him.

we all understand there is nothing going on in hockey, so maybe you should take a break instead of attacking posters here you don't like with ridiculous personal insults.

The journalist was not asking if Olli could make it at camp. I directly quoted both of them - so no I do not think what I am saying is false, nor am I attempting to fabricate anything.

While yes, the journalist said the word "camp" he was speaking about prospects at camp wanting to have a shot to make the team. To then take Benning's answer, which one could reasonably assume was the answer to the question-'does Olli have a shot at making the team' and then paste the word "camp" after it, is not paraphrasing it the same way as the journalist who was there understood it. The journalist said, "All these prospects say they want to come to camp to compete, and think they have a shot to make the team, does Juolevi stand any opportunity next ..." The reporter even says the word "next" before he is cut off by Benning which could only imply realistically imply next season, not next camp. Are you getting on board of the Olli has to make it at camp train too?

Lol speaking of irony you are making claims about a specific poster, not their post itself. I'm not going to suggest that you yourself must be bored but wow for someone calling for no personal attacks - I guess you just mean do as I say not as I do?

 

[krutovsdonut]

There are top picks and there are late bloomers but there are virtually zero top picks who are also late bloomers.

Top picks generally make the NHL quickly or not at all, as you say.

do you doubt he would have been called up last year if not for the knee injury? i think he would have been a d+1 3 debut for sure.

and do you accept that the back surgery prior to that set him back prior to that? i mean that for me is the reason i have not written the guy off despite how bad he was in camp last year.

there is no doubt that progress delayed for any reason can harm a player's development, but logic says a talented player can overcome it, especially one who does not rely on pure athleticism.

which brings up the question of how does your truism above track for guys who have back surgery and knee surgery within 3 years of being drafted?

 

[Javaman]

meanwhile, what we re discussing here is that juolevi did not make a leap that first year or the second year that management wanted so as to make the team. the progression they hoped to see post draft that would get him to the nhl did not happen.

that hope is what benning was talking about.

amazing how much ink is spilled parsing that detail.

meanwhile, i can't wait to see if he stinks in camp this year or finally has his act together.

Have you considered the possibility that you are expending way, way too much time and energy to defend an objectively bad decision by Benning?

 

[MS]

Disagree, don't wait for him to fail. Just trade him now.
He isn't in the teams plan with Hughes there and it's not like it's hard to find a 2nd pairing LHD to fill in once Hughes is ready and Edler retires.

Canucks do not need Juolevi. Trade him.

Oh, I’ve said multiple times he should be traded if we can get anything of note for him. No argument there.

That, however, isn’t going to happen and my comment was about his development assuming he’s still here.

 

[MS]

do you doubt he would have been called up last year if not for the knee injury? i think he would have been a d+1 3 debut for sure.

and do you accept that the back surgery prior to that set him back prior to that? i mean that for me is the reason i have not written the guy off despite how bad he was in camp last year.

there is no doubt that progress delayed for any reason can harm a player's development, but logic says a talented player can overcome it, especially one who does not rely on pure athleticism.

which brings up the question of how does your truism above track for guys who have back surgery and knee surgery within 3 years of being drafted?

They might have called him up but it would have been an embarrassing trainwreck if so. His ES play was basically ECHL calibre. If he would have been a 5th round pick playing the exact same way there would have been zero chance he was called up last year.

 

[krutovsdonut]

The journalist was not asking if Olli could make it at camp. I directly quoted both of them - so no I do not think what I am saying is false, nor am I attempting to fabricate anything.

While yes, the journalist said the word "camp" he was speaking about prospects at camp wanting to have a shot to make the team.

so, to summarize, the fact benning answered a question about camp without mentioning camp makes it "fabricating" for pastor to mention camp when paraphrasing benning's response?

hookay. and they said scholasticism was dead. i'd better dust of my thomas aquinas for summer time hfboards debating dialectic or i am going to get my ass handed to me.

 

[RobertKron]

so, to summarize, the fact benning answered a question about camp without mentioning camp makes it "fabricating" for pastor to mention camp when paraphrasing benning's response?

hookay. and they said scholasticism was dead. i'd better dust of my thomas aquinas for summer time hfboards debating dialectic or i am going to get my ass handed to me.

You genuinely believe that Benning was saying that he doesn't think that Juolevi could make the Canucks, and is talking about him coming in and not looking out of place in a training camp?

 

[Javaman]

so, to summarize, the fact benning answered a question about camp without mentioning camp makes it "fabricating" for pastor to mention camp when paraphrasing benning's response?

hookay. and they said scholasticism was dead. i'd better dust of my thomas aquinas for summer time hfboards debating dialectic or i am going to get my ass handed to me.

Did you seriously bring up Thomas Aquinas on HF? Lol

Aquinas is not to be taken seriously by a modern thinker. We'll see if the mods are willing let you devolve the forum to a religious debate. My sense is that they won't.

 

[krutovsdonut]

They might have called him up but it would have been an embarrassing trainwreck if so. His ES play was basically ECHL calibre. If he would have been a 5th round pick playing the exact same way there would have been zero chance he was called up last year.

well juolevi was shy in camp. we all saw that. it would not be at all surprising if in the first 13 games in the ahl he was also shy especially if he also had a nagging knee injury as well as coming off back surgery. i would not expect the guy to have turned it around that fast from where he was at camp if he was going to turn it around.

so either that play in the ahl was because he is shy and he will bust, or it is because he was coming off back surgery and trying to minimize contact.

considering that he was not nearly as shy the season before in liiga games, i think there's a chance it is the latter and he turns it around. otoh, there are numerous warning signs going way back that this player has his head up his ass.

which is what we are all waiting to find out.