OHL Expansion

[jason2020]

That 92 540 is the area covered just by the city of Belleville after amalgamation, if you include the surrounding area of Quinte West, Price Edward County, Stirling, and Shannonville its actually around 170,000.

My point is Cornwall is big enough to have a team you have the metro area around 60,000 which is growing then you have Akweasne 15,000 then just acrosse the bridge is Watertown 30,000.

 

[h10*]

Considering the pitiful attendance Youngstown has in the USHL, they would never survive in the OHL. You're more likely to see the USHL grow around the Youngstown "island." The USHL could promote Johnstown, then look at Dayton, Akron, Canton, Huntington WV, Trenton, Atlantic City, Danbury, Wheeling (if they should lose the ECHL), Elmira (as with Wheeling), and perhaps even Pittsburgh and Philadelphia in the same way that the WHL works with Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary). If the new ownership in Erie decides to head North, the USHL would also be a good bet there.

As for the OHL moving south, I would look at Buffalo first and foremost. It's a shame the Harborcenter isn't bigger, but I wonder if Pegula had interest if he could simply have them play in the Sabres' arena and just use the lower bowl. As mentioned above, it works for big markets in the WHL.

New ownership in Erie ain't leaving anytime soon. My guess is they will at least be here another 3-5 years as a guarantee and as long as Erie isn't doing pitiful with attendance (so essentially they are winning games fairly consistently) then the otters should be a lock to stay in Erie for the future
The financial issues in Erie all stemmed from 10 terrible years. And the new owners are aware that if you avoid that type of disaster that Erie is a very suitable ohl city

 

[brahmabull]

My point is Cornwall is big enough to have a team you have the metro area around 60,000 which is growing then you have Akweasne 15,000 then just acrosse the bridge is Watertown 30,000.

Watertown is 2hrs from Cornwall, its actually closer to Kingston and even Belleville for that matter. Mesena NY is right across the border but its much smaller, I actually agree Cornwall like Belleville and Brantford should be OHL cities its what junior hockey should be about. There are already enough other pro options in the GTA they didn't need another junior team, unfortunately that's were the money is and its also the only areas any more with enough population base to build these new 60+ million dollar facilities that the OHL is now looking for. Its not just about the seating capacity any more, its about the number of corporate boxes that a franchise can sell.

 

[Captain Crash]

New ownership in Erie ain't leaving anytime soon. My guess is they will at least be here another 3-5 years as a guarantee and as long as Erie isn't doing pitiful with attendance (so essentially they are winning games fairly consistently) then the otters should be a lock to stay in Erie for the future
The financial issues in Erie all stemmed from 10 terrible years. And the new owners are aware that if you avoid that type of disaster that Erie is a very suitable ohl city

I'm aware of the situation Erie; I'm an Otters fan. That said, it doesn't mean they'll be there in perpetuity. Even you said 3-5 years definite. It's not always about if the team is profitable or not, either. I'm inclined to agree that they'll stay in Erie long term, but you have to admit (and you did) that a move is not out of the question, which is why I mentioned it as a hypothetical not as a certainty.

 

[the dog]

Watertown is 2hrs from Cornwall, its actually closer to Kingston and even Belleville for that matter. Mesena NY is right across the border but its much smaller, I actually agree Cornwall like Belleville and Brantford should be OHL cities its what junior hockey should be about. There are already enough other pro options in the GTA they didn't need another junior team, unfortunately that's were the money is and its also the only areas any more with enough population base to build these new 60+ million dollar facilities that the OHL is now looking for. Its not just about the seating capacity any more, its about the number of corporate boxes that a franchise can sell.

I agree with you Brantford and Belleville need new arenas and Cornwall some renov....some day hope all 3 cities are back in O

 

[h10*]

I'm aware of the situation Erie; I'm an Otters fan. That said, it doesn't mean they'll be there in perpetuity. Even you said 3-5 years definite. It's not always about if the team is profitable or not, either. I'm inclined to agree that they'll stay in Erie long term, but you have to admit (and you did) that a move is not out of the question, which is why I mentioned it as a hypothetical not as a certainty.

Agreeded. Certainly very possible in future but I am lead to believe that as long as Erie is winning the success in the city and with fans can only grow and there will be little reason for them to leave. Time will tell though

 

[OSA]

I was sad to see the Bulls leave Belleville but their attendance was just awful the last few years. The community knew that the team could be on the move (it was rumoured for awhile) but instead of doing their part to ensure that didn't happen they decided to stay away. Quite frankly, the fans were spoiled for several years with strong regular seasons and multiple deep playoff runs and IMO they owed the franchise better support during these last few losing years.

 

[brahmabull]

I was sad to see the Bulls leave Belleville but their attendance was just awful the last few years. The community knew that the team could be on the move (it was rumoured for awhile) but instead of doing their part to ensure that didn't happen they decided to stay away. Quite frankly, the fans were spoiled for several years with strong regular seasons and multiple deep playoff runs and IMO they owed the franchise better support during these last few losing years.

The attendance was a reflection of the on ice product, Belleville had two competitive season in the last six years. The coaching staff was stifling the play of the skilled players and the fans were very vocal about it, but the ownership did nothing to address these issues. After the Bulls left everyone kept saying junior hockey is big business and that's what the move was all about. That being the case why should anyone purchase as sub par product from big business? If you purchased a car that only started thirty five percent of the time would you purchase another from the same manufacturer? I'm tired of reading that it was the fans faults for the team leaving, until recent years Belleville had one of the best season ticket per seat rates in the league. Simmonds did everything humanly possible to drive the fans away, it was becoming more evident every year that he had no intention in keeping the team in Belleville. Sure the city of Belleville didn't address all the concerns about the current arena but its hard for smaller communities to commit twenty to sixty million dollars when a team won't sign a lease term more then five years. Every community in the province, the province itself and the country are all running with massive amounts of debt, where is the money to come from?

 

[OSA]

The attendance was a reflection of the on ice product, Belleville had two competitive season in the last six years. The coaching staff was stifling the play of the skilled players and the fans were very vocal about it, but the ownership did nothing to address these issues. After the Bulls left everyone kept saying junior hockey is big business and that's what the move was all about. That being the case why should anyone purchase as sub par product from big business? If you purchased a car that only started thirty five percent of the time would you purchase another from the same manufacturer? I'm tired of reading that it was the fans faults for the team leaving, until recent years Belleville had one of the best season ticket per seat rates in the league. Simmonds did everything humanly possible to drive the fans away, it was becoming more evident every year that he had no intention in keeping the team in Belleville. Sure the city of Belleville didn't address all the concerns about the current arena but its hard for smaller communities to commit twenty to sixty million dollars when a team won't sign a lease term more then five years. Every community in the province, the province itself and the country are all running with massive amounts of debt, where is the money to come from?

When I think of the most successful teams from the Eastern Conference over the last 10 years, I'd put Belleville or Barrie right at the top. I think the team earned the right to be supported during the down years. This is not Kingston or Sudbury we're talking about.

The larger point is that the community of a small market does not, unfortunately, have the luxury to not attend games. An owner can't be expected to continually absorb the losses. There is a responsibility amongst the fan base to share the burden; even in down years.

 

[EON]

The attendance was a reflection of the on ice product, Belleville had two competitive season in the last six years. The coaching staff was stifling the play of the skilled players and the fans were very vocal about it, but the ownership did nothing to address these issues. After the Bulls left everyone kept saying junior hockey is big business and that's what the move was all about. That being the case why should anyone purchase as sub par product from big business? If you purchased a car that only started thirty five percent of the time would you purchase another from the same manufacturer? I'm tired of reading that it was the fans faults for the team leaving, until recent years Belleville had one of the best season ticket per seat rates in the league. Simmonds did everything humanly possible to drive the fans away, it was becoming more evident every year that he had no intention in keeping the team in Belleville. Sure the city of Belleville didn't address all the concerns about the current arena but its hard for smaller communities to commit twenty to sixty million dollars when a team won't sign a lease term more then five years. Every community in the province, the province itself and the country are all running with massive amounts of debt, where is the money to come from?

2012-2013 standings:

Bellevile 44-16-5-3, 96 points, ended up making it to the Eastern Conference Final

Erie 19-40-4-5, 47 points, second consecutive last place finish in the western conference, in the 9 seasons since the title in 2002, was the 6th time the team failed to make the playoffs

Attendance:

Erie 3,115 per game (in an arena that was half complete)

Belleville 2,551 per game

Do the good, die hard fans of Belleville like yourself deserve what happened? Absolutely not. But the city as a whole did not support the team well enough at all.

 

[Hammer9001]

In hockey size doesn't matter. Look no further than Hamilton who had what four teams or so and never supported them. This is probably their last kick at the can. Waterloo Ontario has a couple of people that keep popping up every year or so saying they have the money to put a team there. When the Rangers had their camp and a few exhibition games there only a few Ranger fans showed up. You really have to do your due diligence before laying out money for a venture like OHL hockey. More US teams will not work at this stage in the game.

There is a degree of truth in this, especially when you consider Brampton and Mississauga's issues. That said, there are also other factors working against these teams, which I think I'll go into greater detail in another post.

The point I'd just like to make, is yes, population doesn't matter as much as fans going to games, but it certainly doesn't hurt. Also, look at how many teams over the years have moved because the market was too small.

Hamilton isn't the only OHL market that has had to deal with a revolving door of teams.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defunct_Ontario_Hockey_League_teams

 

[cujoflutie]

Hamilton isn't the only OHL market that has had to deal with a revolving door of teams.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defunct_Ontario_Hockey_League_teams

They are the only team with that many failures in modern history, check the other teams with 3 or more entries on that list;
Detroit; all 3 teams linked together through Pete Karmanos and Compuware
Galt: no teams since 1949
St. Catharines: one team in the 40's, the other 2 entries were the same team but changed names due to a change in NHL affiliations.
Toronto; only two teams since the 50's are the Malboros and Majors

 

[jason2020]

There is a degree of truth in this, especially when you consider Brampton and Mississauga's issues. That said, there are also other factors working against these teams, which I think I'll go into greater detail in another post.

The point I'd just like to make, is yes, population doesn't matter as much as fans going to games, but it certainly doesn't hurt. Also, look at how many teams over the years have moved because the market was too small.

Hamilton isn't the only OHL market that has had to deal with a revolving door of teams.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defunct_Ontario_Hockey_League_teams

Look at markets that have failed because there to big as well.

 

[jason2020]

Watertown is 2hrs from Cornwall, its actually closer to Kingston and even Belleville for that matter. Mesena NY is right across the border but its much smaller, I actually agree Cornwall like Belleville and Brantford should be OHL cities its what junior hockey should be about. There are already enough other pro options in the GTA they didn't need another junior team, unfortunately that's were the money is and its also the only areas any more with enough population base to build these new 60+ million dollar facilities that the OHL is now looking for. Its not just about the seating capacity any more, its about the number of corporate boxes that a franchise can sell.

There is a ton and i mean a ton of money in the Ottawa area lets start with Kemptville which is a bomming community 45 minutes from Ottawa or how about Pembroke/Smith Falls.

 

[tp71]

2012-2013 standings:

Bellevile 44-16-5-3, 96 points, ended up making it to the Eastern Conference Final

Erie 19-40-4-5, 47 points, second consecutive last place finish in the western conference, in the 9 seasons since the title in 2002, was the 6th time the team failed to make the playoffs

Attendance:

Erie 3,115 per game (in an arena that was half complete)

Belleville 2,551 per game

Do the good, die hard fans of Belleville like yourself deserve what happened? Absolutely not. But the city as a whole did not support the team well enough at all.

Just going by pure attendance can be misleading. Erie Insurance Arena sits 6,833 for hockey whereas Yardmen Arena sat 3,257.

 

[h10*]

Just going by pure attendance can be misleading. Erie Insurance Arena sits 6,833 for hockey whereas Yardmen Arena sat 3,257.

In the 2012-13 year they EON is refereeing to the arena probably held 4500-5000 or so with renovation going on. So the filled capacity is about the same. Now Erie was coming off a 10 win season the year before. People will then say "well it was Mcdavid's rookie year".. Yes that may have certainly helped with attendance but only by a little (a couple hundred a game would be my guess) as ultimately Erie fans didn't even know who Connor was. He could walk into a restaurant his rookie year and go unnoticed.. The media attention on him his first year, especially in Erie, was very scarce. Even in recent years with Erie having spiked attendance I still believe it had little to do with Mcdavid. It was about the team winning. Erie has shown over their few successful years (2000-01, 01-02, 10-11, 13-14, and 2014-15) that if the team is winning about or above .60% (or 40 wins) of the games.. They will have solid to great attendance numbers. Main reason that JAW has pledged to try and keep team in Erie to see if he can maintain more attendance consistency. I think he is well aware that almost all of Erie's attendance/revenue issues stemmed from a decade of terrible seasons. To me that is the difference as to why Erie will get this second life and chance. They have shown that this could actually become a top 5 league location if winning becomes a more consistent thing year in and year out.. Easier said than done of course but the recipe is already here in Erie.. Just got to cook and stir things up a bit more and you got yourself a top dish

 

[Evil Doctor]

Hamilton isn't the only OHL market that has had to deal with a revolving door of teams.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defunct_Ontario_Hockey_League_teams

I should point out that many of those franchises are not so much revolving door teams as revolving door names.

With the Hamilton teams Majors/Whizzers are a single franchise that lasted all of two years during WWII. Same with Lloyds/Szabos, another two year team that showed just after the war. The longest serving of course is Tiger-Cubs/Red Wings/Fincups/Steelhawks. So essentially Hamilton has only had two franchises since 1950, one of which was long lasting and wildly successful and winning two Memorial Cups. Of course since the Dukes departure, Hamilton has had two AHL franchise, one of which was long lasting and wildly successful and winning a Calder Cup....