Ogopogo's "Greatest NHL Careers" update

[Ogopogo*]

As many of you are aware, I have a system that I devised to evaluate the greatest careers in NHL history. I thought some of you may have some interest in the update to include the 2006-07 season.


Some interesting observations: The biggest movers and shakers on my non-goaltender list were Nicklas Lidstrom, Joe Thornton, Sidney Crosby and Vincent Lecavalier.

Lidstrom has rocketed up to #27 on my all-time list. He also becomes the 9th greatest defenseman of all time on my list. Lidstrom is rapidly overtaking some of the legends of the sport.

Joe Thornton has had back to back strong seasons to move all the way up to #66.

Sidney Crosby and Vincent Lecavalier are making their debuts on my top 200 careers list. After only two seasons, Sid is sitting at #139. Vinny's great season has moved him into 184th slot.


In goaltending, Martin Brodeur moved up to #7. One more season like this year and Brodeur will own spot #4 on the list.

Roberto Luongo made a huge jump, now occupying 33rd position on the all-time goaltending list.


***Remember, I am still refining things. This list is not perfection but, I think it is a very good evaluation of NHL playing careers. Right now I am working on adjustments for both goaltending and non-goaltending so both lists may see slight adjustments when I have added the additional data.


Greatest NHL Careers

1 Wayne Gretzky
2 Gordie Howe
3 Bobby Orr
4 Mario Lemieux
5 Jean Beliveau
6 Eddie Shore
7 Bobby Hull
8 Ray Bourque
9 Maurice "Rocket" Richard
10 Phil Esposito
11 Jaromir Jagr
12 Stan Mikita
13 Guy Lafleur
14 Doug Harvey
15 Howie Morenz
16 Leonard "Red" Kelly
17 Francis "King" Clancy
18 Bill Cowley
19 Paul Coffey
20 Ted Kennedy
21 Bryan Trottier
22 Earl Seibert
23 Andy Bathgate
24 Syl Apps, Sr.
25 Cecil " Babe" Dye
26 Bobby Clarke
27 Nicklas Lidstrom
28 Elmer Lach
29 Cy Denneny
30 Marcel Dionne
31 Milt Schmidt
32 Mike Bossy
33 Nels Stewart
34 Denis Potvin
35 Mark Messier
36 Larry Robinson
37 Joe Sakic
38 Lionel Conacher
39 Pierre Pilote
40 Frank Boucher
41 Charlie Conacher
42 Max Bentley
43 Steve Yzerman
44 Brad Park
45 Harry Cameron
46 Bernie Geoffrion
47 Doug Bentley
48 Al MacInnis
49 Ted Lindsay
50 Brett Hull
51 Aurel Joliat
52 Bill Cook
53 Rod Langway
54 Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde
55 Aubrey "Dit" Clapper
56 Scott Stevens
57 Chris Chelios
58 Sprague Cleghorn
59 Teemu Selanne
60 Ebbie Goodfellow
61 Sid Abel
62 Jack Stewart
63 Bill Gadsby
64 Hector "Toe" Blake
65 Brian Leetch
66 Joe Thornton
67 Frank Nighbor
68 Chris Pronger
69 Borje Salming
70 Marty Barry
71 Gord Drillon
72 Adam Oates
73 Harry "Punch" Broadbent
74 Scott Niedermayer
75 Frank Mahovlich
76 Henri Richard
77 Mark Howe
78 Peter Forsberg
79 Norm Ullman
80 Doug Gilmour
81 Markus Naslund
82 Tim Horton
83 Serge Savard
84 David "Sweeney" Schriner
85 Joe Malone
86 Jarome Iginla
87 Dale Hawerchuk
88 Syd Howe
89 Eric Lindros
90 Roy Conacher
91 Jack Darragh
92 Reg Noble
93 Peter Stastny
94 Dickie Moore
95 Denis Savard
96 Reg "Hooley" Smith
97 Ivan "Ching" Johnson
98 Jacques Laperriere
99 Pavel Bure
100 George Boucher
101 Sylvio Mantha
102 Bill Quackenbush
103 Guy Lapointe
104 Art Coulter
105 Ken Reardon
106 Cecil Dillon
107 Jean Ratelle
108 Sergei Fedorov
109 Clarence "Hap" Day
110 Bryan Hextall, Sr.
111 Emile "Butch" Bouchard
112 Ace Bailey
113 Bert Olmstead
114 Phil Watson
115 Walter "Babe" Pratt
116 Dave Keon
117 Marcel Pronovost
118 Buddy O'Connor
119 Yvan Cournoyer
120 Martin St. Louis
121 JC Tremblay
122 Rob Blake
123 Paul Thompson
124 Gaye Stewart
125 Pat Lafontaine
126 Paul Kariya
127 Tom Anderson
128 Larry Murphy
129 Odie Cleghorn
130 Ron Francis
131 Alex Delvecchio
132 Ralph "Cooney" Weiland
133 Doug Wilson
134 Fern Flaman
135 Ken Randall
136 Harvey "Busher" Jackson
137 Billy Burch
138 Lynn Patrick
139 Sidney Crosby
140 Gilbert Perreault
141 Jari Kurri
142 Albert "Babe" Seibert
143 Eddie Gerard
144 Lawrence "Baldy" Northcott
145 William "Flash" Hollett
146 Joe Nieuwendyk
147 Red Berenson
148 Tod Sloan
149 Reggie Leach
150 Brad Richards
151 Tom Johnson
152 Paul Ronty
153 Bob Gainey
154 Johnny Gagnon
155 Joe Primeau
156 Carl Brewer
157 Billy Boucher
159 Marcel Bonin
160 Butch Goring
161 Claude Lemieux
162 Bob Pulford
163 Neil Colville
164 John LeClair
165 Theoren Fleury
166 Alf Skinner
167 Ed Litzenberger
168 Bill Thoms
169 Darryl Sittler
170 Corb Denneny
171 Frank Frederickson
172 Harry Howell
173 Bert Corbeau
174 Clint Smith
175 Alexei Yashin
176 Lorne Carr
176 Lionel Hitchman
177 Dick Irvin
178 Peter Bondra
179 Earl Robinson
180 Mark Recchi
181 Bill White
182 Ken Hodge
183 Pat Stapleton
184 Vincent Lecavalier
185 Phil Housley
186 George "Goldie" Prodgers
187 Ed Sandford
188 Sergei Gonchar
190 George Hay
191 Allan Stanley
192 Herb Cain
193 Jack Crawford
195 Bobby Rousseau
196 Michel Goulet
197 Bert McCaffrey
198 Art Chapman
199 Jim Thomson
200 Billy Taylor


Greatest Goaltenders

1 Glenn Hall
2 Patrick Roy
3 Terry Sawchuk
4 Ken Dryden
5 Dominik Hasek
6 Jacques Plante
7 Martin Brodeur
8 Frank Brimsek
9 Clint Benedict
10 Bill Durnan
11 Cecil " Tiny" Thompson
12 Tony Esposito
13 Bernie Parent
14 Walter " Turk" Broda
15 Roy Worters
16 Chuck Rayner
17 Ed Giacomin
18 Georges Vezina
19 George Hainsworth
20 Johnny Bower
21 Grant Fuhr
22 Harry Lumley
23 Alex Connell
24 Mike Liut
25 Lorne "Gump" Worsley
26 Ed Belfour
27 Charlie Gardiner
28 Rogatien Vachon
29 Billy Smith
30 Tom Barrasso
31 Miikka Kiprusoff
32 John Vanbiesbrouck
33 Roberto Luongo
34 Roger Crozier
35 Charlie Hodge
36 Mike Vernon
37 Normie Smith
38 Lorne Chabot
39 Al Rollins
40 Don Edwards
41 Ron Hextall
42 Dave Kerr
43 Jose Theodore
44 Pete Peeters
45 Pelle Lindbergh
46 Jim Henry
47 Cam Ward
48 Bill Ranford
49 JS Giguere
50 Olaf Kolzig

Click to read more...

 

[VanIslander]

139 Sidney Crosby
140 Gilbert Perreault
141 Jari Kurri

If his career ended today (due to, say, injury) then SC's career would be greater than Kurri's?

No.

In terms of arc, and looking to future performance, one can predict it easily. But in terms of career to date? No way.

Too much focus on regular season hardware in your rating system perhaps.

 

[Ol' Jase]

How is it possilble the Cam Ward has had a better career than Bill Ranford, regardless of any rating system.

 

[arrbez]

How did Norm Ullman (#79) end up so incredibly far ahead of guys like Perreault, Sittler, Kurri, and Francis?

He doesn't strike me as a guy who was particularly dominant in his prime...(I could be wrong on that)


Obviously no list is going to be perfect...and I'm sure you're expecting a lot of controversy here. But still, if Markus Naslund has had the 80th greatest career in NHL history, does that mean you would induct him into the Ogopogo Hall of Fame if he retired today? He had 3 excellent regular seasons...and that's it.

 

[Sens Rule]

Did Alfredsson rise on your list or drop or stay the same?

 

[arrbez]

How is it possilble the Cam Ward has had a better career than Bill Ranford, regardless of any rating system.

Yeah...that's a head scratcher in my books too. The Conn Smyth is Ward's only notable achievement so far, and Ranford has one to match, on top of a pretty solid career. Ward wasn't even the starter that year...and this past season he was among the league worst in both GAA and SV%, and middle of the pack in terms of wins.

Heck, how is he ahead of Giguere too?

 

[Ogopogo*]

Did Alfredsson rise on your list or drop or stay the same?

Alfie's sitting tight at #247

 

[Ogopogo*]

If his career ended today (due to, say, injury) then SC's career would be greater than Kurri's?

No.

In terms of arc, and looking to future performance, one can predict it easily. But in terms of career to date? No way.

Too much focus on regular season hardware in your rating system perhaps.

What, on an individual basis, would you say Kurri has to put him ahead of Crosby?

 

[Ogopogo*]

How did Norm Ullman (#79) end up so incredibly far ahead of guys like Perreault, Sittler, Kurri, and Francis?

He doesn't strike me as a guy who was particularly dominant in his prime...(I could be wrong on that)


Obviously no list is going to be perfect...and I'm sure you're expecting a lot of controversy here. But still, if Markus Naslund has had the 80th greatest career in NHL history, does that mean you would induct him into the Ogopogo Hall of Fame if he retired today? He had 3 excellent regular seasons...and that's it.

The question I ask is: How many NHLer have ever had 3 excellent regular seasons?

The answer is, not too many. In fact, the number would be 79 or less, based on where Naslund sits.

 

[Ogopogo*]

How is it possilble the Cam Ward has had a better career than Bill Ranford, regardless of any rating system.

Due to a lack of available data on goaltenders and difficulty in dealing with the NHL head office in NY to obtain the additional data I need, my goaltending ratings can only go so far. Both Ward and Ranford's only great seasons were winning the Conn Smythe on a cup run.

If the NHL provides me with the additional data I require, perhaps Ranford would end up ahead of Ward but, until then, they are tied.

 

[Sens Rule]

Alfie's sitting tight at #247

So Alfredsson leads the playoffs in goals and ties for the lead in points and Captains a team to the finals and he stays put?

That points out a huge weakness in your system.

Alexei Yashin at 175 and Alfredsson at 247 is a freaking joke. There isn't a hockey person alive that watched the NHL for the last 12-15 years that would have Yashin above Alfredsson for his career. Talk about overweighting one or 2 good seasons.

You call your list "greatest NHL careers" - what it is is "highest NHL peaks - even as few as 2 or 3 seasons".

Your list has merit but not accounting for playoffs at all except the Smythe greatly limits its merits.

 

[Sens Rule]

What, on an individual basis, would you say Kurri has to put him ahead of Crosby?

Kurri played at an elite level for 11 or 12 seasons. Crosby has done it for 2 - at a higher level but still.....

 

[Ogopogo*]

Yeah...that's a head scratcher in my books too. The Conn Smyth is Ward's only notable achievement so far, and Ranford has one to match, on top of a pretty solid career. Ward wasn't even the starter that year...and this past season he was among the league worst in both GAA and SV%, and middle of the pack in terms of wins.

Heck, how is he ahead of Giguere too?

Because GAA, SV% and Wins are all largely team stats, they do not enter in to my ratings.

See the above post but, once I obtain the additional data I need perhaps Giguere will end up ahead of Ward.

Winning the Conn Smythe is a significant thing in my book.

 

[Stephen]

It seems truly baffling that a multiple cup winner like Recchi can be behind a guy like Yashin, or that Joe Thornton had a better career than Scott Niedermayer, or Eric Lindros is behind Markus Naslund, or that Sidney Crosby's 2 years is better than Jari Kurri. How is Steve Yzerman behind Joe Sakic, and how is Ron Francis behind Martin St. Louis?

And how did Sergei Gonchar and Alexei Yashin beat out Mats Sundin?

Who is Billy Taylor? This guy? The guy didn't even play enough games to qualify for an NHL pension. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid[]=10070&pid[]=13297

How do you know anything about "Art Coulter" "Buddy O'Connor" "George Hay"? How can you even put them in relation to contemporary players if you've never seen them play?

How can you possibly put a guy like Sylvio Mantha ahead of a Alex Delvecchio, Jari Kurri and Doug Gilmour?

The lists are completely random and padded with obscure historical names. A lot of obviously great players are rated way too low in relation to these ho hum 1930s ghosts nobody knows about or can really remember. I think there's a lot of random filler in here which basically discredits the other work you're doing.

 

[Stonefly]

Bourque at 8 and Harvey at 14?????
Al MacInnis at 48????? What the hell is MacInnis doing in the top 100 players of all time?

 

[arrbez]

The question I ask is: How many NHLer have ever had 3 excellent regular seasons?

The answer is, not too many. In fact, the number would be 79 or less, based on where Naslund sits.

So, yes, you'll go on record as saying that Markus Naslund is a legit HOFer (assuming your personal hall-of-fame would have 80 players in it)?

Since it seems Naslund's days as an elite player are over, I think too much emphasis is being put on regular season scoring when guaging a career here. A handfull of seasons does not a career make.

 

[barfy2000]

What, on an individual basis, would you say Kurri has to put him ahead of Crosby?

How about 1000 games and about 1200 points?

Not to mention about 5 Stanley Cups, a HHOF enshrinement and an Olympic Bronze?

 

[arrbez]

Because GAA, SV% and Wins are all largely team stats, they do not enter in to my ratings.

See the above post but, once I obtain the additional data I need perhaps Giguere will end up ahead of Ward.

Winning the Conn Smythe is a significant thing in my book.

But that's the point. Ranford and Giguere (even prior to these playoffs) have both won the Smyth as well. This should make it a moot point, no? Ignoring the Smyths, Ward has one season as a backup, and one mediocre regular season. Ranford was at least a solid starter for a number of years. Giguere has 4 years as a very good NHL starter.

Apart from the one major accomplishment which they all share, Ward has done absolutely nothing in the NHL.

Which part of your goaltending formula put him ahead of those two?

 

[Ogopogo*]

So Alfredsson leads the playoffs in goals and ties for the lead in points and Captains a team to the finals and he stays put?

That points out a huge weakness in your system.

Alexei Yashin at 175 and Alfredsson at 247 is a freaking joke. There isn't a hockey person alive that watched the NHL for the last 12-15 years that would have Yashin above Alfredsson for his career. Talk about overweighting one or 2 good seasons.

You call your list "greatest NHL careers" - what it is is "highest NHL peaks - even as few as 2 or 3 seasons".

Your list has merit but not accounting for playoffs at all except the Smythe makes it greatly limits its merits.

The playoffs are a delicate issue. To give huge weighting to things like Alfredsson's 2007 playoff performance is completely unfair to all of the great players who are stuck on crappy teams. Is it Marcel Dionne's fault his GM was an idiot? Is it Crosby's fault his Penguins weren't good enough to beat the Senators?

If I was to weight playoff performance significantly higher then players like Henri Richard would be ahead of Phil Esposito. Claude Lemieux would be ahead of Mario Lemieux.

The regular season gives each player an even playing field and is a better measure than playoff numbers, IMO. I do account for playoffs with Smythe trophies and cup wins but, they must be put in proper perspective to accomplish the correct results, IMO.

 

[Stephen]

The criteria in which you judge players is also wholey inconsistent. Are you ranking guys on statistical production, length of career, championships, individual awards, peak seasons? Are you rating them on a combination of these things? What makes an above average player from the 1940s better than some of the elite talent of other eras? And how is Naslund better than Lindros? Lindros' peak was longer, he accomplished more statistically, in terms of individual awards and his team went further than any of Naslund's teams. Makes no sense.

 

[Ogopogo*]

It seems truly baffling that a multiple cup winner like Recchi can be behind a guy like Yashin, or that Joe Thornton had a better career than Scott Niedermayer, or Eric Lindros is behind Markus Naslund, or that Sidney Crosby's 2 years is better than Jari Kurri. How is Steve Yzerman behind Joe Sakic, and how is Ron Francis behind Martin St. Louis?

And how did Sergei Gonchar and Alexei Yashin beat out Mats Sundin?

Who is Billy Taylor? This guy? The guy didn't even play enough games to qualify for an NHL pension. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid[]=10070&pid[]=13297

How do you know anything about "Art Coulter" "Buddy O'Connor" "George Hay"? How can you even put them in relation to contemporary players if you've never seen them play?

How can you possibly put a guy like Sylvio Mantha ahead of a Alex Delvecchio, Jari Kurri and Doug Gilmour?

The lists are completely random and padded with obscure historical names. A lot of obviously great players are rated way too low in relation to these ho hum 1930s ghosts nobody knows about or can really remember. I think there's a lot of random filler in here which basically discredits the other work you're doing.

LOL.

You must be young. Spend some time doing a little research and educate yourself. Laziness does not make one wiser.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Bourque at 8 and Harvey at 14?????
Al MacInnis at 48????? What the hell is MacInnis doing in the top 100 players of all time?

LOL.

Did you ever see MacInnis play? Research the man's career he is what I would call "pretty good"

 

[Stephen]

Also, Don Edwards shouldn't be on any list of great NHL goalies. A guy like Curtis Joseph or Andy Moog would have been more legitimate choices given they were actually quality starters for a long period of time. What did Edwards ever do that was so special? Nothing more than a Ranford or a Kolzig or a Giguere.

 

[Ogopogo*]

So, yes, you'll go on record as saying that Markus Naslund is a legit HOFer (assuming your personal hall-of-fame would have 80 players in it)?

Since it seems Naslund's days as an elite player are over, I think too much emphasis is being put on regular season scoring when guaging a career here. A handfull of seasons does not a career make.

You cannot base everything on playoff scoring. As I said, is it Marcel Dionne's fault he had a dolt for a GM? He wouldn't make the list if it was all based on playoffs. The regular season is a great leveler of the playing field.

When I make my adjustments, Naslund will probably drop a little. How far, I don't know for sure. What I do know is he had 3 consecutive seasons that were among the greatest three season spans by almost anyone in NHL history.

 

[Sens Rule]

The playoffs are a delicate issue. To give huge weighting to things like Alfredsson's 2007 playoff performance is completely unfair to all of the great players who are stuck on crappy teams. Is it Marcel Dionne's fault his GM was an idiot? Is it Crosby's fault his Penguins weren't good enough to beat the Senators?

If I was to weight playoff performance significantly higher then players like Henri Richard would be ahead of Phil Esposito. Claude Lemieux would be ahead of Mario Lemieux.

The regular season gives each player an even playing field and is a better measure than playoff numbers, IMO. I do account for playoffs with Smythe trophies and cup wins but, they must be put in proper perspective to accomplish the correct results, IMO.

Seriously Claude would be ahead of Mario Lemieux if playoffs were included using your system? Mario is one of the best playoff performers EVER. claude had good playoffs but they are NOTHING compared to Mario's. Mario was BY FAR the best player on 2 Cup teams. He has the best playoff PPG of anyone but Gretzky. He is as clutch as they come but somhow Claude would rank better in your system if playoffs are included?

Yashin had 2 good years in Ottawa and Alfredsson has half a dozen at the same level of play or higher. Yet because Yashin was higher in Hart voting the one year he was a second team All star somehow Yashin is far better than Alfredsson?

Yashin has had maybe the 500th best NHL career - if that - in NHL history. He sucks so bad the his team paid him not to play for them anymore.