Offseason Thread vol. XII - "Stop filling thread with spam posts" Edition

[Sensinitis]

I can't wait for Ottawa to trade Spezza so we can stop talking about Spezza.

Me too.

 

[SensPerpetualRebuild]

Spezza and compete shouldn't be used in the same sentence. I am so glad we didn't sign him to an extension. The guy allegedly asked for a trade on 3 separate occasions.

Let's accept every word out of a player's mouth as fact and reject every word out of management. Do you expect Spezza to say he hated the city, his teammates, the coach, didn't like his ice time, or being a leader, etc? He's going to spin it so that he looks best. Same goes for management. They will spin it as well.

Regarding Ryan, if management felt there was no way they could re-sign him, he would've been on the block earlier this summer. That doesn't mean things won't go sideways.

All this whining about Melnyk's finances is quite tiresome and premature. The team spent near the ceiling when they were a contender and have said that they will spend more in the future. They're not a contender at the moment so it would be foolish to spend to the ceiling right now. And it would also jeopardize their ability to keep the younger players as they mature and earn raises.

This isn't the time to go on a spending spree. Not many high paid free agent signings have paid off. And the team is far from contention. Once the team becomes a contender, then you look for an FA or 2 to put you over the top.

I won't complain until they lose a key younger player due to budget reasons. Sure, Alfie was botched but life goes on.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Those are some big words from a guy that refuses to play at both ends of the rink. I loved Spezza in his time here, but he needs to accept that he was part of the problem here, especially last year.

Lol, for real.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Those are some big words from a guy that refuses to play at both ends of the rink. I loved Spezza in his time here, but he needs to accept that he was part of the problem here, especially last year.

Lol refuses.

 

[Cosmix]

Murray says they offered Spezza an extension and he said he didn't want to stay

Yes, that is somewhat true i think. However i thought it went something like the Senators offered him an extension and he refused it. It might have been a low offer that was easy to refuse. So i am skeptical on this point to some extent when we do not have all the information.

Murray has a way of spinning things to suit his own agenda. He certainly spun the "we won't get equal value for a point producer" comment before the Spezza trade. Yet look at what Tampa received for their point producer Martin St. Louis.

I don't regret the Spezza trade because Spezza could command a very high salary that would get in the way of signing our other younger more promising UFAs, and given Hemsky's performance for the last few years, the chemistry with Spezza might not continue in the future. We shall see if it does in Dallas.

Given the budget limitations, i think the Senators do need to build through the draft with younger less expensive players on ELCs and RFA contracts, and not more expensive UFAs.

 

[Sun God Nika]

Murray said he asked Spezza if he wanted a extension when he asked for a trade, and they werent even open to talk about it.

It seems that the primary thing was spezza's four million dollar salary next season, Spezza probably wanted to play in an American market where he would get get to keep most of the money and not lose it to taxes Dallas being the best. while playing in Canada is the worst in that regard. Ofcourse the fact that we couldn't afford him wingers since Heatley was likely a big reason too.

 

[BigRig4]

Murray has a way of spinning things to suit his own agenda. He certainly spun the "we won't get equal value for a point producer" comment before the Spezza trade. Yet look at what Tampa received for their point producer Martin St. Louis.

I'm probably just misunderstanding this comment, but are you trying to say that Murray pushed the whole "Spezza won't get equal value" thing so that he could purposely get less for him? Otherwise I don't really understand what St Louis has to do with the trade.

 

[Cosmix]

I'm probably just misunderstanding this comment, but are you trying to say that Murray pushed the whole "Spezza won't get equal value" thing so that he could purposely get less for him? Otherwise I don't really understand what St Louis has to do with the trade.

No, i am not saying that Murray deliberately got less for him. I think the spin was not true as other high scorers like St.Louis can and did get a good return. Murray's comment did not address the real reason the Senators were not getting or likely to get a good return. In my view the real reasons are that Spezza has an injury history AND Spezza is poor defensively!

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Everybody knew that St-Louis wanted to go to NY and that put a lot of pressure on Sather: if he didn't make the trade and the team sucked in the playoffs then he'd be blamed for not getting St-Louis

Yzerman also played hardball and let's not get carried away: they got a decent second line player, a very late 1st in a weak draft and what could still be a late 1st in a great draft. It was a great trade for Tampa since they got younger and picks but they also lost their captain and those picks might very well amount to nothing at all.

It isn't a 1:1 comparison with what happened with Spezza

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

Yes, that is somewhat true i think. However i thought it went something like the Senators offered him an extension and he refused it. It might have been a low offer that was easy to refuse. So i am skeptical on this point to some extent when we do not have all the information.

Murray has a way of spinning things to suit his own agenda. He certainly spun the "we won't get equal value for a point producer" comment before the Spezza trade. Yet look at what Tampa received for their point producer Martin St. Louis.

I don't regret the Spezza trade because Spezza could command a very high salary that would get in the way of signing our other younger more promising UFAs, and given Hemsky's performance for the last few years, the chemistry with Spezza might not continue in the future. We shall see if it does in Dallas.

Given the budget limitations, i think the Senators do need to build through the draft with younger less expensive players on ELCs and RFA contracts, and not more expensive UFAs.

Moving Spezza was the right move for the organization on a few levels. Culture and 'team play style' changes aside, we knew we weren't going forward with him long-term, especially since Spezza will want a big contract with term if he did entertain the idea of staying here at all. Moving him out affords us the ability to (hopefully) lock down the younger emerging core players. Long-term finances may have had just as much to do with moving Spezza out as anything else. Signing both Spezza and Hemsky to long term deals might have been great if the stars aligned, but it would have been very risky given their pasts.

I'm just looking forward to not having to hear about Spezza's lack of backchecking his upcoming season.

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

Everybody knew that St-Louis wanted to go to NY and that put a lot of pressure on Sather: if he didn't make the trade and the team sucked in the playoffs then he'd be blamed for not getting St-Louis

Yzerman also played hardball

It isn't a 1:1 comparison with what happened with Spezza

I think some people are upset that we traded our #1 forward and star centre for (potentially) mediocrity. It's frustrating when we unload one of our biggest stars and don't receive a boatload in return or a 'big name' like we sometimes see around the league. The NYR trade is one of the best examples of an amazing return for a star player (not saying at all that it was the same situation, but you can understand from an outsider's point of view why some would think we got fleeced).

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Lol refuses.

Lol, english aside, it's true.

 

[StefanW]

I think some people are upset that we traded our #1 forward and star centre for (potentially) mediocrity. It's frustrating when we unload one of our biggest stars and don't receive a boatload in return or a 'big name' like we sometimes see around the league. The NYR trade is one of the best examples of an amazing return for a star player (not saying at all that it was the same situation, but you can understand from an outsider's point of view why some would think we got fleeced).

It was always unrealistic to get a star or "name" player back, simply because our budget does not allow for that. Spezza was always going to be moved for a pick, a very good prospect, and a work in progress type of prospect. The biggest disappointment was not getting a first round pick instead of a second. I could probably even let that pass considering how deep the next draft is. The player we select in the 2nd round of the 2015 draft has a pretty good shot at being as good as a player selected 21-30 OA in 2014.

 

[SensPerpetualRebuild]

The only thing that the Martin St Louis trade shows is just how out of touch Sather is. The guy had no idea what the market value was. And then they go on a fluke run to the Finals. If Mason had been healthy to start the playoffs, the NYR would have been a first round exit. They can thank Emery's hip for their shiny new banner.

 

[Xspyrit]

Yes, that is somewhat true i think. However i thought it went something like the Senators offered him an extension and he refused it. It might have been a low offer that was easy to refuse. So i am skeptical on this point to some extent when we do not have all the information.

Murray has a way of spinning things to suit his own agenda. He certainly spun the "we won't get equal value for a point producer" comment before the Spezza trade. Yet look at what Tampa received for their point producer Martin St. Louis.

Just to comment on this :

- The return on St-Louis worked for Tampa mainly because they were able to sign rental UFA Ryan Callahan who seemed like he was going to test the UFA market no matter what. TB had to slightly overpay him to keep him. Had too because Stevie would have took at a lot of flack to trading fan favorite MSL for a (late) 1st and a 2nd.
- Martin St. Louis was the heart and soul leader of the Bolts. look at how did after he left, and how the Rangers did (up to the SCF while the Bolts got sweep by a "decent" team)
- Martin St. Louis had 1 year left on his contract plus the rental period and the playoffs, while Spezza had 1
- Martin St. Louis is a much better player than Spezza overall and doesn't have near the same injury issues. Look at the durability and endurance of MSL, it's astounding :

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/stlouma01.html

Spezza is considered a risky player and a defensive liability around the league. MSL is the opposite.

- The 2015 first that Tampa got might be a late one, still a good asset but probably not a "high end asset" like some make it out to be... Tampa also "lucked-out" that the Rangers made the SCF (still suck to see your competitor reach the finals and not you, so the Rangers won in the short term) so that 2nd round pick became the 29th OA pick, which they traded for 35th and 57th overall picks, since the draft was weak. They thought it was better to get 2 crapshoots shots than one.
- Let's not forget that the Rangers also get Tampa's 2nd in 2015 that might match the two seconds TB got in 2014 (IMO Tampa won't be in the last 10 picks), so for an argument standpoints, let's forget those picks for a second.

In Summary

Martin St. Louis for Ryan Callahan + (potential late) 1st in 2015

Good trade for the Bolts long-term but maybe not the homer-run some people make it out to be.

It was always unrealistic to get a star or "name" player back, simply because our budget does not allow for that. Spezza was always going to be moved for a pick, a very good prospect, and a work in progress type of prospect. The biggest disappointment was not getting a first round pick instead of a second. I could probably even let that pass considering how deep the next draft is. The player we select in the 2nd round of the 2015 draft has a pretty good shot at being as good as a player selected 21-30 OA in 2014.

This, easily

 

[Do Make Say Think]

It was not a fluke run to the finals

The Rangers were very good and had their PP been anything above horrible they had a great chance at beating LA

Brad Richards is a huge reason why they lost, he was awful and he was supposed to be a PP player

 

[danielpalfredsson]

The only thing that the Martin St Louis trade shows is just how out of touch Sather is. The guy had no idea what the market value was. And then they go on a fluke run to the Finals. If Mason had been healthy to start the playoffs, the NYR would have been a first round exit. They can thank Emery's hip for their shiny new banner.

They got a pretty good deal on St.Louis. At the time, he was the previous Art Ross winner, and a PPG forward with veteran experience.

St.Louis had the playoffs, and an extra year left on his deal, so he wasn't just a rental. There was also a strong reason to believe that he wanted to play in NY, so odds are, he signs an extension when the year is up and the Rangers have him until he retires.

What did they give up for him?

Callahan, so by proxy, probably a 2014 second round pick that they could have acquired had they dealt him elsewhere. (Look at what rentals were going for, Gaborik and Vanek were basically given away at the deadline).

The main piece of value they gave up in the trade was a 2015 first. They gave up a 2014 second which turned into a first, which was a good problem to have. They then got a 2015 second as a result of Callahan re-signing with Tampa, which goes far to defray the value of the 2014 first they gave up since 2015 is supposedly such a deep draft.

Ottawa doesn't really have an equivalent situation, but say Spezza's deal was ending last season, I'd easily do Spezza and a few first round picks at the deadline for an Art Ross winner and an exciting Stanley Cup finals run. Both teams won that trade, even if Tampa gets something really juicy with those picks, unless it's McDavid or Eichel......when it comes to the result of that deal, I'd much rather be in the Ranger's shoes.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Everybody knew that St-Louis wanted to go to NY and that put a lot of pressure on Sather: if he didn't make the trade and the team sucked in the playoffs then he'd be blamed for not getting St-Louis

Yzerman also played hardball and let's not get carried away: they got a decent second line player, a very late 1st in a weak draft and what could still be a late 1st in a great draft. It was a great trade for Tampa since they got younger and picks but they also lost their captain and those picks might very well amount to nothing at all.

It isn't a 1:1 comparison with what happened with Spezza

You just showed exactly how Yzerman did a better job than Murray under greater pressure and restrictions.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

The two situations have nothing in common other than Spezza and St-Louis being captains wanting out

If things work out well for Chiasson, Guptill and Paul I could easily see the return on Spezza being better than the return on MSL

 

[Micklebot]

The two situations have nothing in common other than Spezza and St-Louis being captains wanting out

If things work out well for Chiasson, Guptill and Paul I could easily see the return on Spezza being better than the return on MSL

I suppose that depends on how you account for Callahan, but I agree with your point. The futures we got are probably pretty close to the expected outcome of a late 1st round pick as they've all developed reasonably well. Chiasson certainly has proven more than most late first picks do by that stage. The 1st round picks do likely have higher end potential though.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Callahan is a dependable 2nd line player with leadership qualities

He's pretty good but I wouldn't call him impressive

 

[Micklebot]

Callahan is a dependable 2nd line player with leadership qualities

He's pretty good but I wouldn't call him impressive

Good for 40-50 pts, physical, good defensively, + intangibles/leadership. Nothing to scoff at, as you say, but better than most 1st round draft picks that don't come out of the top 5. He will likely be the best piece involved in the trade outside St.Louis.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Callahan is a dependable 2nd line player with leadership qualities

He's pretty good but I wouldn't call him impressive

Considering Callahan is basically Lazar's ceiling.....yeah, Tampa got a very nice player for their team. Add two first round pick on top of that for a guy who will likely play 1-3 more seasons in the league....hot damn for Yzerman.

It was not a fluke run to the finals

The Rangers were very good and had their PP been anything above horrible they had a great chance at beating LA

Brad Richards is a huge reason why they lost, he was awful and he was supposed to be a PP player

It was definitely a fluke.

They almost lost of Philadelphia in the first round to a third string goaltender.
Then, they gave Pittsburgh and Fleury of all people 3 shutouts to put on his playoff resume.
The series against Montreal was a legit win, but it's Montreal. Even we can beat those smurfs easily.

Richards...yeah, he has been puke-worthy for a good 3 seasons now. Too many people living in the past with that guy.

And Nash...most over-rated big man in the league. Now that he has the reigns for the Rangers, expect them to miss the playoffs this year.



The Spezza trade wasn't that bad...but we really should've been able to get a first rounder out of that deal instead of a second. Not that it would've made much difference. That player probably won't turn into an impact NHLer either way.

The trade will look better in 2-3 years when Spezza barely plays 60 games per year with a massive retirement contract cap hit and declining point totals.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Fluke or not, they came within a few lucky bounces of possibly winning the cup. Despite losing 4-1 to LA, the series was a lot closer than it seemed on paper. I'd take a fluke cup finals run any day.

The thing about Callahan is that he was basically worth a second at the deadline. Which they ended up getting anyway since Tampa re-signed him. So when assessing the value of the trade at the time, it's not like they gave up a lot by throwing in Callahan.

The big piece of the trade was a 2015 1st, which likely projects anywhere from 10th-20th. That's easily worth giving up for an exciting cup finals run.

Look at it this way, Senators cup final run in 2007 is still the most exciting and prolific thing to happen to this franchise despite 7 years passing. Even if that 2015 first round pick gets Tampa a solid 1st line star (not likely), it's still worth giving up for a good exciting run.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Considering Callahan is basically Lazar's ceiling.....yeah, Tampa got a very nice player for their team. Add two first round pick on top of that for a guy who will likely play 1-3 more seasons in the league....hot damn for .

I'm not one for high expectations but Callahan is not lazars ceiling.