Offseason Thread Part II

[Metallo]

“We gotta be a mature group here and realize when you give up momentum swings in a game, you have to stop the bleeding.” From Brandon Saad.....

sorry was not ignoring ur post...time diff and all that

Thanks!

Quite telling of the Avs lack of capacity to play the clock (and just make a comeback).

 

[AegonLeConqueror]

Im actually thankful Z did that. Makes me like Nathan even more. The main is going at his(Nates) head about this all but guaranteed 95% of them would want this monster on their roster.

Probably oilers fans looking for reasons to bash Nate because how dare he be compared to McDavid!!!!

 

[Grigowski]

I wonder what happened to Graves after he killed the team in Game 5.....Mac must have been really pissed.....

 

[Avs9296]

I wonder what happened to Graves after he killed the team in Game 5.....Mac must have been really pissed.....

Why do you think he got traded.

Mack told Joe you have to trade him or else I'm gone.

 

[Ararana]

The part everyone on the main boards wants to gloss over

He made pros out of our entire Colorado team. That’s one of the reasons that Colorado got such an improvement in performance over the last couple of years.

 

[Bill Peckerskull]

 

[The Kingslayer]

Probably oilers fans looking for reasons to bash Nate because how dare he be compared to McDavid!!!!

Oh yah. There are a bunch of Oiler fans in there.

 

[henchman21]

It’s all about balance my guy. No sweets allow you to eat dairy based sauces. Plus everybody knows booze and pasta are healthy. I respect your guyet. As long as you mix in a few essential garden wings and the side dish pizza pie you’re golden.

Yup... Pizza is scientifically proven to be the healthiest food. Add in probiotic rich beer, and you have a well balanced meal.

 

[henchman21]

Hmm. Maybe there was some malice in Z intent. Nobody got yelled at more from Nathan than Z. IN fact wasn't it Mack yelling at Z that caused Jared to bench Nathan that one time?

I don't see malice... I just don't think Z has nearly as much of a filter and doesn't know when to shut up. He shouldn't have probably stated it all like that, but I don't see any bad intentions... just Z being Z.

 

[The Kingslayer]

“We gotta be a mature group here and realize when you give up momentum swings in a game, you have to stop the bleeding.” From Brandon Saad.....

sorry was not ignoring ur post...time diff and all that

That comment says a lot about the group imo especially coming from a guy whose won before. Weak minded. There isn't another team in the league that folds at the slightest bit of adversity in game then the Avs….well...maybe Toronto. Don't really know why either. By every metric this team should be mentally capable to overcome these things but we seen time and again that the moment the other team pushes back the Avs cower.

 

[JWK]

They renamed the Pepsi Center to the Ball Arena because MacKinnon told them to

 

[henchman21]

That comment says a lot about the group imo especially coming from a guy whose won before. Weak minded. There isn't another team in the league that folds at the slightest bit of adversity in game then the Avs….well...maybe Toronto. Don't really know why either. By every metric this team should be mentally capable to overcome these things but we seen time and again that the moment the other team pushes back the Avs cower.

 

[hughdreamz]

MacKinnon’s favorite color is blue so they had to change our pants, gloves, and helmets to blue.

 

[Richard88]

I prefer the 'game of inches' speech

 

[jabubenice]

That comment says a lot about the group imo especially coming from a guy whose won before. Weak minded. There isn't another team in the league that folds at the slightest bit of adversity in game then the Avs….well...maybe Toronto. Don't really know why either. By every metric this team should be mentally capable to overcome these things but we seen time and again that the moment the other team pushes back the Avs cower.

all true and well said... maybe look at the leadership from coach then captains would be a start

 

[henchman21]

I prefer the 'game of inches' speech

I prefer

 

[jabubenice]

Thanks!

Quite telling of the Avs lack of capacity to play the clock (and just make a comeback).

exactly!!

 

[Pokecheque]

The problem with guys like that is u don't win cups with them. U need guys that make everyone better, a guy that instills confidence in the other guys to play their game regardless of mistakes. U don't want guys to be so afraid of u when u on the ice that they always default to u even when they have better scoring chances...
When SAAD made that "maturity", comment. It carried a lot of weight. Even if we had the capspace I wonder if he would have wanted to sign here

Of COURSE you win championships with players like that. There's examples all over the place of guys like that who won it all. Jordan is probably the best example. Elway didn't shy away from yelling at teammates. Someone noted the example of Mark Messier literally threatening young players with physical violence (that IMO is about five bridges too far, but it's still an example), so that's not true that you don't win with intense guys.

Michael Irvin is another example of how driven-ness can be both a good and bad thing. He was a terror to rookies, and it unfortunately led to a violent altercation that resulted in serious, life-threatening injuries, so that's obviously a bad thing. But he also went HARD after his defensive teammates, taunting them, saying "Cover me, bitch!" in practice drills. It worked--the Cowboys of that era IIRC had one of the best secondaries in the league.

What I take away from that is that Nate is probably not the best guy to have as your captain (though I don't think it'd be the worst idea either), but he appears to be a largely-positive influence. Matt Calvert credited MacKinnon with fixing his own dietary and fitness routines that allowed his game to reach a new level. Z appears to say the same thing. He's not some unhinged psychopath, he's just intense and hates to lose.

And while Brandon Saad has a well-earned rep for championship-level play, he also has a well-earned rep for not bringing it every night.

 

[jabubenice]

Of COURSE you win championships with players like that. There's examples all over the place of guys like that who won it all. Jordan is probably the best example. Elway didn't shy away from yelling at teammates. Someone noted the example of Mark Messier literally threatening young players with physical violence (that IMO is about five bridges too far, but it's still an example), so that's not true that you don't win with intense guys.

Michael Irvin is another example of how driven-ness can be both a good and bad thing. He was a terror to rookies, and it unfortunately led to a violent altercation that resulted in serious, life-threatening injuries, so that's obviously a bad thing. But he also went HARD after his defensive teammates, taunting them, saying "Cover me, bitch!" in practice drills. It worked--the Cowboys of that era IIRC had one of the best secondaries in the league.

And while Brandon Saad has a well-earned rep for championship-level play, he also has a well-earned rep for not bringing it every night.

yes u need players like that but there has to be a balance and most importantly they have to show up when it matters and unfortunately mac-daddy was a ghost and a no show...Saad was by far our best performer during the playoffs. talk about not showing up when it matters?? come on mayn

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Of COURSE you win championships with players like that. There's examples all over the place of guys like that who won it all. Jordan is probably the best example. Elway didn't shy away from yelling at teammates. Someone noted the example of Mark Messier literally threatening young players with physical violence (that IMO is about five bridges too far, but it's still an example), so that's not true that you don't win with intense guys.

Michael Irvin is another example of how driven-ness can be both a good and bad thing. He was a terror to rookies, and it unfortunately led to a violent altercation that resulted in serious, life-threatening injuries, so that's obviously a bad thing. But he also went HARD after his defensive teammates, taunting them, saying "Cover me, bitch!" in practice drills. It worked--the Cowboys of that era IIRC had one of the best secondaries in the league.

What I take away from that is that Nate is probably not the best guy to have as your captain (though I don't think it'd be the worst idea either), but he appears to be a largely-positive influence. Matt Calvert credited MacKinnon with fixing his own dietary and fitness routines that allowed his game to reach a new level. Z appears to say the same thing. He's not some unhinged psychopath, he's just intense and hates to lose.

And while Brandon Saad has a well-earned rep for championship-level play, he also has a well-earned rep for not bringing it every night.

Yep. I’m not sure I’m buying into Brandon Saad being the expert on winning and everything Avs related.

There was probably 15-20 games where I barely noticed him on the ice.

 

[Pokecheque]

yes u need players like that but there has to be a balance and most importantly they have to show up when it matters and unfortunately mac-daddy was a ghost and a no show...Saad was by far our best performer during the playoffs. talk about not showing up when it matters?? come on mayn

You seem to forget a couple things:

Teams were doing everything they could to hack and slash and obstruct MacKinnon and his linemates, because you can still do that in the playoffs for some ridiculous reason. Also, when the centers behind you on the depth chart are Tyson Jost, J.T. Compher, and Pierre-Edouard Bellemare, you can focus your efforts on just the one guy and not suffer much in the way of consequences. That, and the fact that we know MacKinnon was not 100% healthy played a big part in his inability to score consistently in the postseason. Does it entirely excuse him? No, of course not, but until the Avs figure out how to put some better talent behind him on the depth chart, that's going to be the number one reason why they keep bowing out in the 2nd round.

And chill out on the "playoff performer" thing. It's as much a product of dumb luck as it is effort and talent. Saad most certainly earned a lot of those goals but he was also shooting at a ridiculously high rate, like 24% or something. I'm sure you recall the goal where he actually whiffed on the shot attempt and it ended up fooling Fleury? Yeah, Saad deserves props but if you're actually trying to put him on a level above Nathan MacKinnon, you're out to lunch.

Saad is a secondary scoring threat. If he's the most talented player on his line, chances are that line is going to do very little. He also isn't the hardest worker. I didn't say he was Pavel Brendl, but you can look it up yourself--he's not the most driven either. That's one of many reasons why, despite his phenomenal talent and vision, that he's not a legit star in his own right. The Blue Jackets traded for him expecting him to be a core talent, a few years later they traded him back to Chicago, and word was it wasn't an amicable parting. He can say whatever the f*** he wants, doesn't mean he knows the winning ingredients to a championship team more than anyone else.

I wish the Avs had been able to retain him because he's a really good player (and yes, I have no doubt he would've signed had they offered a satisfactory contract), but I can kinda see why Joe wasn't thrilled about paying him long-term.

 

[Richard88]

You seem to forget a couple things:

Teams were doing everything they could to hack and slash and obstruct MacKinnon and his linemates, because you can still do that in the playoffs for some ridiculous reason. Also, when the centers behind you on the depth chart are Tyson Jost, J.T. Compher, and Pierre-Edouard Bellemare, you can focus your efforts on just the one guy and not suffer much in the way of consequences. That, and the fact that we know MacKinnon was not 100% healthy played a big part in his inability to score consistently in the postseason. Does it entirely excuse him? No, of course not, but until the Avs figure out how to put some better talent behind him on the depth chart, that's going to be the number one reason why they keep bowing out in the 2nd round.

And chill out on the "playoff performer" thing. It's as much a product of dumb luck as it is effort and talent. Saad most certainly earned a lot of those goals but he was also shooting at a ridiculously high rate, like 24% or something. I'm sure you recall the goal where he actually whiffed on the shot attempt and it ended up fooling Fleury? Yeah, Saad deserves props but if you're actually trying to put him on a level above Nathan MacKinnon, you're out to lunch.

Saad is a secondary scoring threat. If he's the most talented player on his line, chances are that line is going to do very little. He also isn't the hardest worker. I didn't say he was Pavel Brendl, but you can look it up yourself--he's not the most driven either. That's one of many reasons why, despite his phenomenal talent and vision, that he's not a legit star in his own right. The Blue Jackets traded for him expecting him to be a core talent, a few years later they traded him back to Chicago, and word was it wasn't an amicable parting. He can say whatever the f*** he wants, doesn't mean he knows the winning ingredients to a championship team more than anyone else.

I wish the Avs had been able to retain him because he's a really good player (and yes, I have no doubt he would've signed had they offered a satisfactory contract), but I can kinda see why Joe wasn't thrilled about paying him long-term.

Saad shot at a 22.1% rate in the regular season, which is double his career average. To be fair to him though his ice-time was also down ~3 minutes compared to the rest of his career which might balance that shooting % a bit.

In the playoffs his ice-time went up again. He scored 7 goals but that was off an insanely unsustainable 36.8% shooting rate.

I think it's worth pointing out that Saad didn't have great chemistry with Kadri and Burakovsky. I never got the sense that Saad liked playing with Kadri, probably due to the fact that Kadri is such a poor distributor of the puck.

Recall that the 3rd line with Nichuskin-Jost-Donskoi was rolling and being extremely effective (#1 in the league in xGF% at 5v5) and yet Bednar broke the line up by removing Donskoi and putting Saad there instead due to how bad the 2nd line was playing.

Saad did find some chemistry with Jost, but the fact that he didn't click well on the 2nd line probably played a big part in Sakic being willing to let him go this offseason. He'd most likely have slotted in next to Jost and Nichuskin rather than next to Kadri/Burakovsky and $4.5m+ would have been too much for that spot in the lineup.

 

[bradrich99]

So this is how it goes, eh? Find a guy who you cheer for all year (Saad) and then when he leaves you rag on him like some bloke who just got dumped by his girlfriend does...

 

[Richard88]

So this is how it goes, eh? Find a guy who you cheer for all year (Saad) and then when he leaves you rag on him like some bloke who just got dumped by his girlfriend does...

Who is ragging on Saad? Seems more like a matter-of-fact discussion

 

[Pokecheque]

So this is how it goes, eh? Find a guy who you cheer for all year (Saad) and then when he leaves you rag on him like some bloke who just got dumped by his girlfriend does...

Or maybe we're looking at the numbers and doing an examination of the player. It doesn't have to be blind adulation or shitting all over him. There's room for something in between.