Official Training Camp Thread - Continues

[SprDaVE]

Let's hope he gets his wish.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Let's hope he gets his wish.

Seems like Babcock wants to keep these guys around because he thinks they are better then some of the guys who were supposed to be around, and management thinks it may be better to keep them in the AHL away from this mess.

 

[SprDaVE]

Seems like Babcock wants to keep these guys around because he thinks they are better then some of the guys who were supposed to be around, and management thinks it may be better to keep them in the AHL away from this mess.

Or perhaps they all want to keep them up but until they trade the "veterans", they can't keep them up.

This rotten veteran core can't be gone soon enough. I wish the summer was a bigger blood bath...

 

[mcleex]

Yes, the sense of entitlement around here is disgusting. Let them develop properly, no need to rush. Babs wants them to bring it like that first and third game every single night, and imo they are a bit away from being able to do that. Let them take some time.

Who said I was even talking about the young guys?
Guys like Frattin can play on this team rather than waste a spot on a guy like Arcobello for instance

Robidas is a huge waste of a spot. Percy better make the team

 

[Suntouchable13]

Or perhaps they all want to keep them up but until they trade the "veterans", they can't keep them up.

This rotten veteran core can't be gone soon enough. I wish the summer was a bigger blood bath...

Come on, Lou, work your magic! Hopefully we'll see why they brought him here.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Or perhaps they all want to keep them up but until they trade the "veterans", they can't keep them up.

This rotten veteran core can't be gone soon enough. I wish the summer was a bigger blood bath...

me too.
Lou needs to start wheeling and dealing.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Or perhaps they all want to keep them up but until they trade the "veterans", they can't keep them up.

This rotten veteran core can't be gone soon enough. I wish the summer was a bigger blood bath...

Me too.

Bozak, Lupul, JVR (I am starting to wonder), Robidas, and Phaneuf if the price is right (aka I don't want to retain) would be great to move.

JVR has assets that I like - size, skill, speed, but defensively pretty bad, and again, I just wonder if the atmosphere of being with the old core and such has gotten to him. He would be one I am most open to keeping around though to see if a #1C would help him out.

Kadri has looked good under Babcock IMO which is a positive.

 

[Crysis]

Me too.

Bozak, Lupul, JVR (I am starting to wonder), Robidas, and Phaneuf if the price is right (aka I don't want to retain) would be great to move.

JVR has assets that I like - size, skill, speed, but defensively pretty bad, and again, I just wonder if the atmosphere of being with the old core and such has gotten to him. He would be one I am most open to keeping around though to see if a #1C would help him out.

Kadri has looked good under Babcock IMO which is a positive.

If I could trade Kadri, JVR, Bozak, Lupul, Robidas and Phaneuf(retain 2.5 mil) for this package(via multiple trades) I would do it in a heartbeat:

2016 1st Rd pick x2(Would be late 1sts)
2017 1st Rd pick x2(Also late 1sts)
2016 2nd Rd pick x2
2016 3rd Rd pick x2

I think Kadri and JVR are both worth a pair of late 1st round picks to the right team.

Get rid of them all and let Hunter build this team from the ground up with Rielly, Marner, Brown etc. a solid foundation to build on.

Anyone disagree?

 

[WTFMAN99]

If I could trade Kadri, JVR, Bozak, Lupul, Robidas and Phaneuf(retain 2.5 mil) for this package(via multiple trades) I would do it in a heartbeat:

2016 1st Rd pick x2(Would be late 1sts)
2017 1st Rd pick x2(Also late 1sts)
2016 2nd Rd pick x2
2016 3rd Rd pick x2

I think Kadri and JVR are both worth a pair of late 1st round picks each to the right team.

Get rid of them all and let Hunter build this team from the ground up with Rielly, Marner, Brown etc. a solid foundation to build on.

Anyone disagree?

Need to keep some placerholders around and vets so you don't have an entire young team of kids like Edmonton. Kadri makes sense to keep around for 1-2 more years until Nylander has unseated him for the #1C spot.

 

[Crysis]

Need to keep some placerholders around and vets so you don't have an entire young team of kids like Edmonton. Kadri makes sense to keep around for 1-2 more years until Nylander has unseated him for the #1C spot.

I would sign UFA vets to fill the gap for the season.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I would sign UFA vets to fill the gap for the season.

Using that logic why didn't they just sign Curtis Glencross and Devin Setoguchi instead of releasing them from their PTO's?

 

[Crysis]

Using that logic why didn't they just sign Curtis Glencross and Devin Setoguchi instead of releasing them from their PTO's?

I mean if I were able to ship out the entire core for picks I would. They would simply be place holders, even if they had no value. The value is the picks attained previously.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I mean if I were able to ship out the entire core for picks I would. They would simply be place holders, even if they had no value. The value is the picks attained previously.

I don't see that strategy working out.

You can definitely afford to lose guys like Bozak, Lupul, Robidas, Phaneuf right now. It would make sense to keep guys around like Kadri and JVR for internal competition and to help insulate guys like Nylander and Brown from the tougher match ups to start, as we start to improve and they start to show they are clear upgrades over guys like Kadri-JVR, you either move them down a line (if no other young guys are able to handle a 2nd-3rd line role internally) but if we have other players who can also handle those duties then of course you start looking at moving Kadri and JVR to fit our needs such as top RHD. Rome wasn't built in a day

 

[Crysis]

I don't see that strategy working out.

You can definitely afford to lose guys like Bozak, Lupul, Robidas, Phaneuf right now. It would make sense to keep guys around like Kadri and JVR for internal competition and to help insulate guys like Nylander and Brown from the tougher match ups to start, as we start to improve and they start to show they are clear upgrades over guys like Kadri-JVR, you either move them down a line (if no other young guys are able to handle a 2nd-3rd line role internally) but if we have other players who can also handle those duties then of course you start looking at moving Kadri and JVR to fit our needs such as top RHD. Rome wasn't built in a day

I just don't see JVR and Kadri as part of any future success. JVR because of his lazy, uninspired play, and Kadri due to his attitude. If Kadri were 19 still I would give him the benefit of the doubt but he's in his mid twenties....when in doubt sell high. It's just asset management. As far as insulating the young guns, you can do that via free agency on one year deals. The team will suck, sure, but we need to tank this season anyways.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I just don't see JVR and Kadri as part of any future success. JVR because of his lazy, uninspired play, and Kadri due to his attitude. If Kadri were 19 still I would give him the benefit of the doubt but he's in his mid twenties....when in doubt sell high. It's just asset management. As far as insulating the young guns, you can do that via free agency on one year deals. The team will suck, sure, but we need to tank this season anyways.

Who is a free agent who would sign a 1 year deal who could handle top 6? Not a lot of those. Unless you mean you just want to sign plugs to fill in the entire roster which is a bad idea in my opinion. You'll just get hammered every night, and again, I feel like that just breeds a bigger loser mentality then we already have.

In terms of JVR and Kadri specifically, I don't look to deal them until it looks like we actually have replacements for them, just my opinion.

 

[Crysis]

Ya just a difference of opinion, I'd keep all the young guns in the Marlies, ship out the core, replace with plugs, have a bajillion draft picks then see about signing some good UFA player July 1st on no longer than 3 year deals and go from there.

 

[Wasp]

I get not wanting to rush prospects, but I'm not completely sold on the whole "keep them in the AHL and away from this mess" line of thinking for Brown and Nylander. If they're not NHL-ready, by all means keep them down. However, if Babcock (known for not rushing players) thinks they're ready and wants them on the roster, I see no reason to send them down.

At a certain point in a prospect's development, keeping them down longer than needed will actually stunt their growth. Sometimes they need to be at the NHL level to be able to actually develop as players, and burning a year of a young players development dominating the minors just because we're going to be bad this year just doesn't make sense. If they're ready, play the kids.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I get not wanting to rush prospects, but I'm not completely sold on the whole "keep them in the AHL and away from this mess" line of thinking for Brown and Nylander. If they're not NHL-ready, by all means keep them down. However, if Babcock (known for not rushing players) thinks they're ready and wants them on the roster, I see no reason to send them down.
At a certain point in a prospect's development, keeping them down longer than needed will actually stunt their growth. Sometimes they need to be at the NHL level to be able to actually develop as players, and burning a year of a young players development dominating the minors just because we're going to be bad this year just doesn't make sense. If they're ready, play the kids.

Is it a matter of being ready or just simply being better then a lot of crap we have on the roster right now?

Still think keeping them down this year provides them with a chance to refine aspects of their game.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Who said I was even talking about the young guys?
Guys like Frattin can play on this team rather than waste a spot on a guy like Arcobello for instance

Robidas is a huge waste of a spot. Percy better make the team

How on earth is Arcobello a waste of a spot but Frattin is not? Arcobello is the better player in very conceivable way.

Edit: Never mind, I get your point. Still, Arcobello can compete at the NHL level. Frattin can't. Some fans might not care about that, but management does.

 

[Doc300c]

Being poor defensively 10 out of his 11 years also doesn't count? The point is he's bad defensively, worse than most of the defensemen we have on the team (as crazy as that is) and should play less minutes and definitely get easier assignments if we want to fool another team into taking him.

I agree with you on him playing less minutes and get easier assignments.

But to base anything off last year seems foolish when looking at how bad the entire team played last year. If we can trade him I'll be happy but I wouldn't be surprised if every other team is waiting to see how/if he bounces back.

 

[Wendelstache]

I'm confident that Babcock can help them learn on the fly...

If Babs think they are better off up here in the NHL, who's to argue with the MAN?

 

[Ovate]

If I could trade Kadri, JVR, Bozak, Lupul, Robidas and Phaneuf(retain 2.5 mil) for this package(via multiple trades) I would do it in a heartbeat:

2016 1st Rd pick x2(Would be late 1sts)
2017 1st Rd pick x2(Also late 1sts)
2016 2nd Rd pick x2
2016 3rd Rd pick x2

I think Kadri and JVR are both worth a pair of late 1st round picks to the right team.

Get rid of them all and let Hunter build this team from the ground up with Rielly, Marner, Brown etc. a solid foundation to build on.

Anyone disagree?

I disagree. Don't sell low on Bozak, Lupul, and Robidas. If we just hang on to them for a couple more years, we can get more picks for them at the TDL or sometime before then. A 2nd for Bozak and Lupul isn't ridiculous.

The price for JVR should be a couple late firsts. The price for Kadri should be at least a couple late firsts. Dion at $4.5M is a really good deal too, and if we're going to retain $2.5M for six more years, something really good has to come back. If between all those pieces, we're not getting any single asset better than a late first, it's not worth it. Quantity can't make up for quality.

In a realistic but optimistic scenario, that package you listed will be three busts busts, two fringe NHL players, two middle six players and one top line player. They likely won't be as good as Kadri, JVR, and Phaneuf, not to mention that it will be five to seven years before they're competitive.

I'm all for trading those assets (minus Kadri - he's younger and cost controlled for longer), but not for the return you listed.

 

[Warden of the North]

Or perhaps they all want to keep them up but until they trade the "veterans", they can't keep them up.

This rotten veteran core can't be gone soon enough. I wish the summer was a bigger blood bath...

Its not even the guys who were here before.

Why was signing Arcobello and PAP a necessity so early in the summer? In the event that no kids were able to step in, theres always a couple fringe guys around late in the summer whom we could have signed.

Im kinda ticked that it looks like Arco is going to be the opening day 4th line C. Surely hes not THAT much better then what Carrick could offer?

 

[hockeywiz542]

Toronto Maple Leafs head coach Mike Babcock speaks with members of the media following Thursday's practice.

[NHL]839055[/NHL]

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Its not even the guys who were here before.

Why was signing Arcobello and PAP a necessity so early in the summer? In the event that no kids were able to step in, theres always a couple fringe guys around late in the summer whom we could have signed.

Im kinda ticked that it looks like Arco is going to be the opening day 4th line C. Surely hes not THAT much better then what Carrick could offer?

I have Arcobello in the press box. Spaling is the 4C IMO.