OT: Official 2013 Patriots/NFL Thread-Part X

[Therick67]

I don't agree with this actually. There's a difference between getting outclassed by a great team playing a great game and choking. And what I saw last night was the latter from Denver. They weren't executing even the plays Seattle was giving them. They looked flat and intimidated, and honestly, I think that reflects their leadership. This wasn't an example of a team who hung around while a great team pulled away. Ergo, they choked, and I think they took the cue from their best player. Looked like he wanted no part of that game.

They looked cooked after the safety, it was kind of sad.

 

[BlackNgold 84]

I don't agree with this actually. There's a difference between getting outclassed by a great team playing a great game and choking. And what I saw last night was the latter from Denver. They weren't executing even the plays Seattle was giving them. They looked flat and intimidated, and honestly, I think that reflects their leadership. This wasn't an example of a team who hung around while a great team pulled away. Ergo, they choked, and I think they took the cue from their best player. Looked like he wanted no part of that game.

So now Peyton's leadership is the reason they lost it? couldn't be that the seahawks defense shut everything down? Where was Decker, Julius Thomas? Welker and Demaryius got there catches when the game was looking bleak.

 

[Therick67]

And bad coaching and team play all around. If you don't call this choking by Denver then you need to raise the bar.

They were pathetic in every aspect of the game. Seattle is good and a deserving champion, but Denver folded way too easy IMO.

 

[BlackNgold 84]

Every loss ins't a choke, but when you're the #1 offense in the league, #1 seed in the AFC and you set all-time offensive records and only score 8 points in the superbowl and give 9 away directly....you choked.

Saying its a choke is taking away from Seattle. Just like when people said the colts choked the two times they lost to the pats in the early 2000's. It takes away from those defense did in that game.

 

[Donnie Shulzhoffer]

Saying its a choke is taking away from Seattle. Just like when people said the colts choked the two times they lost to the pats in the early 2000's. It takes away from those defense did in that game.

No it is not. They played great but Denver showed up and looked like the Keystone Cops with no help from Seattle.

 

[MTaylorJ1]

So now Peyton's leadership is the reason they lost it? couldn't be that the seahawks defense shut everything down? Where was Decker, Julius Thomas? Welker and Demaryius got there catches when the game was looking bleak.

The reason? No. A reason? I think so. I'm not sure why this seems so outrageous. Again, Seattle played an excellent game, Denver didn't show up anywhere. It's not a forgone conclusion that just because Seattle played well Denver had to roll over. They did, some of the onus of that has to go on their leadership. Manning, Fox.

 

[Therick67]

Saying its a choke is taking away from Seattle. Just like when people said the colts choked the two times they lost to the pats in the early 2000's. It takes away from those defense did in that game.

Denver wasn't even competitive. The opening kickoff shouldn't have even been taken out of the endzone. The first snap of the game couldn't even be handled.

The Broncos looked done after 12 seconds, they were never in the game. Seattle played well, but Denver was awful and all of it wasn't Seattle.

If that is taking away from Seattle's win, then so be it.

I don't know anyone on the planet who thought this was going to be such a one sided game.

 

[Roll 4 Lines]

Yikes, yumpin, yiminy people.

It's possible for one team to play great and another to choke in the same game.

There are games where both teams play great. This was not one of them.

Bruins/Tampa Game 7 2011. Both teams played great. One team lost. They did not choke.

Bruins/Penguins Round 3, 2013. Bruins played great. Pittsburgh choked. The fact that Crosby and company choked does not diminish the fact that the Bruins played great.

Yesterday Seattle played great. They kicked butt.

Denver sukked. They did not show up and play well. They choked.

Saying so does not mean Seattle is not getting the credit they deserve.

There. Thank you!

 

[BlackNgold 84]

The reason? No. A reason? I think so. I'm not sure why this seems so outrageous. Again, Seattle played an excellent game, Denver didn't show up anywhere. It's not a forgone conclusion that just because Seattle played well Denver had to roll over. They did, some of the onus of that has to go on their leadership. Manning, Fox.

Not outrageous at all. I'm not a Broncos fan at all so there is no bearing on my life. If Denver doesn't show up, you gotta put that on Fox. I mean after two weeks of prep and you get a performance like that? I guess since I'm used to BB i'm used to seeing a well thought out game plan haha.

 

[11MilesPerJohan]

This all right here is the reason they lost. Simply saying (not that you're saying that) Peyton is a choke is the reason they lost is so short sighted. No one was beating seahawks.. no one.

Okay, but there is a difference between losing in a competitive game to a really good team in the Super Bowl, and getting blown out 43-8. I mean, can't we agree that there are shades of suck? And I think things are getting blown out of proportion with the Seahawks now. They are a very good team, and they had an excellent year and played a great Super Bowl, but there were plenty of people, probably the majority of them, that went into the game thinking that there was no one who was going to beat the Broncos. The Seahawks were not the '85 Bears for Pete's sake.

Denver blew doors on everyone they played this year. They blew doors on the Pats in the AFC championship game. They scored the most points in the history of the league in a single season. Peyton tossed 55 TD passes and he took home his fifth MVP the day before the game. People were already anointing him the greatest ever and giving him ring number two before the game even started. Some even started talking about what would happen if he won this year and next year back to back.

I don't know, it's hard for me not to call it a choke to some extent. Who choked? Denver? Peyton? Roll it all into one big ball of choke if you want, but there was definitely some chokeage there. No one is laying it all on Peyton's feet, but when they guy gets all sorts of credit for everything his team does and all the records he breaks, then it seems just that he get some criticism when him and his team don't play well. That doesn't seem like a huge leap to me.

It's a cop-out to just say, "Well, Seattle was a juggernaut, what are you going to do? Peyton couldn't have done any better than that...nothing to see here." So then we can never criticize anybody for anything when a team loses because it's all about the other team? Come on. The problem is that there are a bunch of people who need to eat some crow after this game, and none of them quite have the appetite to do it.

 

[11MilesPerJohan]

Yikes, yumpin, yiminy people.

It's possible for one team to play great and another to choke in the same game.

There are games where both teams play great. This was not one of them.

Bruins/Tampa Game 7 2011. Both teams played great. One team lost. They did not choke.

Bruins/Penguins Round 3, 2013. Bruins played great. Pittsburgh choked. The fact that Crosby and company choked does not diminish the fact that the Bruins played great.

Yesterday Seattle played great. They kicked butt.

Denver sukked. They did not show up and play well. They choked.

Saying so does not mean Seattle is not getting the credit they deserve.

There. Thank you!

Yeah, this is pretty much what I was trying to say in like 15 other posts combined...thanks for putting so succinctly.

 

[BlackNgold 84]

Okay, but there is a difference between losing in a competitive game to a really good team in the Super Bowl, and getting blown out 43-8. I mean, can't we agree that there are shades of suck? And I think things are getting blown out of proportion with the Seahawks now. They are a very good team, and they had an excellent year and played a great Super Bowl, but there were plenty of people, probably the majority of them, that went into the game thinking that there was no one who was going to beat the Broncos. The Seahawks were not the '85 Bears for Pete's sake.

Denver blew doors on everyone they played this year. They blew doors on the Pats in the AFC championship game. They scored the most points in the history of the league in a single season. Peyton tossed 55 TD passes and he took home his fifth MVP the day before the game. People were already anointing him the greatest ever and giving him ring number two before the game even started. Some even started talking about what would happen if he won this year and next year back to back.

I don't know, it's hard for me not to call it a choke to some extent. Who choked? Denver? Peyton? Roll it all into one big ball of choke if you want, but there was definitely some chokeage there. No one is laying it all on Peyton's feet, but when they guy gets all sorts of credit for everything his team does and all the records he breaks, then it seems just that he get some criticism when him and his team don't play well. That doesn't seem like a huge leap to me.

It's a cop-out to just say, "Well, Seattle was a juggernaut, what are you going to do? Peyton couldn't have done any better than that...nothing to see here." So then we can never criticize anybody for anything when a team loses because it's all about the other team? Come on. The problem is that there are a bunch of people who need to eat some crow after this game, and none of them quite have the appetite to do it.

What the Seahawks did was better than "great". To shut down 3-4 good to great receivers, and they we're shut down. My issue is the people who just lay the blame or all the praise on the feet of any qb are being ridiculous. I will also agree with how the media is treating this and how they can't just critique anything Manning did in that game. He didn't have a good game. No one on that team did and Fox did a bad job coaching in my opinion... I also got a question.. was what brady did in 2007 a choke? he got 6 more points.

 

[11MilesPerJohan]

What the Seahawks did was better than "great". To shut down 3-4 good to great receivers, and they we're shut down. My issue is the people who just lay the blame or all the praise on the feet of any qb are being ridiculous. I will also agree with how the media is treating this and how they can't just critique anything Manning did in that game. He didn't have a good game. No one on that team did and Fox did a bad job coaching in my opinion... I also got a question.. was what brady did in 2007 a choke? he got 6 more points.

The 2007 Pats were absolutely a choke. And I realized that there was freedom in just admitting that. That is another case of a team playing a great game (The Giants) and another team (The Patriots) not producing to the level they could have and did all year. They underperformed. But at least it wasn't 43-8, my god. And I'll say this for Brady in that game...he wasn't great, but he led the team down the field for a go-ahead TD when he had to...and then, well, you know what happened after that.

 

[Fossy21]

But you can't say "I'm not taking away **** from Seattle, [but Denver choked]". Saying Denver choked does detract from what Seattle did. Beating up on a team that's choking is less of an accomplishment than beating up on a team that's not choking.

If that's the case, then I am taking away from Seattle. I'm taking away some of the hyperbole. They beat a choking team, they played great, but not as great as some are trying to say. They played well enough that they could've beaten Broncos by a wider margin, but the Broncos were bad. You can't say that the safety meant nothing. It's two points, giving up possession (another 3 points from that possession), giving momentum over, and losing confidence, all while Seattle are receiving to start the second half = they have at least as many possessions left. All this instead of potentially scoring 7 points on that drive and having the game go completely different. But yeah, that didn't matter at all, it just pretty much sealed the game straight away. And of course they wouldn't have scored a TD on that drive anyway - even though they weren't choking - because Seattle is impossible to score on, as we've seen all year. Or do you mean to tell me that Seattle were looooads better in that game than they've been ever this year? They'd have to be about twice as good as their average performance for them to make the Broncos their *****es in that fashion if Broncos were playing up to their level, as you seem to believe.

You're saying there were some unforced mistakes, but that they were fewer than I think, yet you only address one and call it unimportant. No, there were more mistakes and examples of choking that I brought up. If the Broncos didn't make those mistakes, and Seattle made "just" half as many mistakes as Denver did now, it would've been a game. That didn't happen. But of course, no one on the Broncos choked, they played the best they have all year, and all the plays we saw yesterday would've happened against them anytime of the year with an opponent playing that well.

 

[BlackNgold 84]

The 2007 Pats were absolutely a choke. And I realized that there was freedom in just admitting that. That is another case of a team playing a great game (The Giants) and another team (The Patriots) not producing to the level they could have and did all year. They underperformed. But at least it wasn't 43-8, my god. And I'll say this for Brady in that game...he wasn't great, but he led the team down the field for a go-ahead TD when he had to...and then, well, you know what happened after that.

Ok. You might be the first person to be man enough to admit that 2007 was a choke. I don't know what the sentiment is from most of the fans on here or what was said on here after that happened but the C word was not to be uttered. I just think that people for most part in this area just want to throw Choke on to almost every loss a rival has. I guess I should just stop even *****ing/worrying about this. I'm too busy checking out/laughing at the Gallagher thread on the main board.

 

[Fossy21]

Ok. You might be the first person to be man enough to admit that 2007 was a choke. I don't know what the sentiment is from most of the fans on here or what was said on here after that happened but the C word was not to be uttered. I just think that people for most part in this area just want to throw Choke on to almost every loss a rival has. I guess I should just stop even *****ing/worrying about this. I'm too busy checking out/laughing at the Gallagher thread on the main board.

It was obviously a choke. They underperformed, by default. Even if there were 5 helmet catches in that game they ought to have won it. But it's not like Seattle played so much better than the Giants did back then that 14-17 by that Patriots team is a choke, and 8-43 by the 2013 Broncos isn't.

 

[11MilesPerJohan]

Ok. You might be the first person to be man enough to admit that 2007 was a choke. I don't know what the sentiment is from most of the fans on here or what was said on here after that happened but the C word was not to be uttered. I just think that people for most part in this area just want to throw Choke on to almost every loss a rival has. I guess I should just stop even *****ing/worrying about this. I'm too busy checking out/laughing at the Gallagher thread on the main board.

Oh yeah, my immediate reaction after they lost that game: "I can't believe they ****ing choked that game away!!! God damn it!!!


LOL, that Gallagher thing is pretty damn funny...

 

[Fossy21]

LOL, that Gallagher thing is pretty damn funny...

The video is funny, the thread is annoying. Glad I could force myself to close it before going insane.

 

[bruins309]

It's as simple as this:

- Denver played their worst game of the Manning era (36 games)
- Seattle played their best game of the Russell Wilson era (36 games)

And that is how you get a 35 point rout in a championship game in an era of parity. This isn't like the days of the NFC top 4 teams all being better than the late 80s Broncos, etc.

Seattle was able to pressure Peyton from pretty much all sides. And we're not talking about a mobile QB here, so its really asking for trouble. Manning can't run away from that trouble.

Seattle is going to be fascinating to watch the next few years as they try to figure out how to pay these guys, who to keep, etc. Obviously Wilson is the first guy to keep, but all of those guys are D are going to get big contracts, health permitting.

 

[Fossy21]

It's as simple as this:

- Denver played their worst game of the Manning era (36 games)
- Seattle played their best game of the Russell Wilson era (36 games)

Come on now... In saying that, you're taking away way too much from the best team ever who wouldn't have lost against any other team that has ever existed or will ever exist, and will go 19-0 the upcoming 4 seasons.

 

[CDJ]

His playoff record is 11-12, most playoff losses by a starting quarterback ever.

This makes me a very happy camper

 

[BergyDGD]

2007 Super Bowl was absolutely a choke. Probably the most gut wrenching loss I've ever witnessed just because it's very rare to see your team play a game with the title of being the best team of all time on the line. But they failed. Now looking back I see the Giants had a team that presented matchup problems for the Pats (most notably in their ability to pressure Brady). We saw the Giants could go toe to toe with Pats in game 16 of that season. Patriots played below their ability and choked but it was not as bad as Denver's complete failure to show up vs Seattle. Hell, Seattle was given 2 points before they laid a hand on the football. I know it's semantics because a loss is a loss, just an opinion on two Super Bowl choke jobs in recent memory, Denver's performance was worse than the Pats in 2007 but the Pats choked away football immortality.

 

[kytem2]

This makes me a very happy camper

Tom Brady is 6-7 in his last 13 games as a playoff starter. I guess he used to be good, but now isn't ?

 

[bruins309]

Tom Brady is 6-7 in his last 13 games as a playoff starter. I guess he used to be good, but now isn't ?

Since Brady's last SB win, he has 9 playoff wins.

Peyton Manning has 8.

This is a sample that removes all of Brady's SB wins, and keeps all of Manning's SB appearances.

They're both great QBs....Joe Montana was 0 for the playoffs from '85 to '87, Marino never made a Super Bowl after year 2, Elway never made a Super Bowl after '89 without Denver engaging in salary cap cheating.

 

[GabeTravels]

2007 Super Bowl was absolutely a choke. Probably the most gut wrenching loss I've ever witnessed just because it's very rare to see your team play a game with the title of being the best team of all time on the line. But they failed. Now looking back I see the Giants had a team that presented matchup problems for the Pats (most notably in their ability to pressure Brady). We saw the Giants could go toe to toe with Pats in game 16 of that season. Patriots played below their ability and choked but it was not as bad as Denver's complete failure to show up vs Seattle. Hell, Seattle was given 2 points before they laid a hand on the football. I know it's semantics because a loss is a loss, just an opinion on two Super Bowl choke jobs in recent memory, Denver's performance was worse than the Pats in 2007 but the Pats choked away football immortality.

Yep.

2003 Sox hurt, but they came back next year and won.

2010 Bruins was crushing, but that loss shaped the team into the Champs the following year.

The 2007 Pats is a loss that can never be made any better. That'll hurt forever. Even beating the Giants in 2012 wouldn't have done it. It would've helped ease the pain, but that 2007 Pats loss is a scar forever.