How does AA not have a guaranteed spot on this team? That's absurd.
I'm doing trying to figure out the ****ed up "logic" this management is employing.
GDT: Off-Season Thread IV - July 1st 'Oh ****' Edition
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How does AA not have a guaranteed spot on this team? That's absurd.
I'm doing trying to figure out the ****ed up "logic" this management is employing.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
He easily could have. But why would a GM say that? You shouldn't even say that if it's McDavid. Kid has to come into camp and play like he belongs. Even if we signed no one, AA shouldn't have had a guaranteed roster spot. If Jurco/Pulkkinen/Frk/Mantha outplayed him, AA should be in GR. These guys need to battle it out, we don't need kids that are unable to impress enough to make the roster. We need another Larkin, not another Pulkkinen who only gets into the NHL because he runs out of options.
I get your point but to follow that logic we should tell Zetterberg he has to earn his spot, too.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
Tell that to Jurco and Pulkkinen..
He pretty much has to. However like in every walk of life, it's usually harder to get 'in' than it is to get kicked out. The substitute teacher can absolutely rock the english grammar class but it's not going to necessarily cause the school to fire the ordinary teacher.
For AA it should be enough to outplay Jurco/Pulkkinen to be on the team from day 1. I think Blashill will want him on the team too.
Heraldic
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- Dec 12, 2013
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Wings are or are fast going exactly where Sabres were couple of years back then. We also had similar kind of discussion about rebuild/going with the current core back then. There was a lot of opposition for the rebuild back then, but I doubt that atm anyone thinks that it was the wrong course of action...
Devils are also a prime example - before Lou got canned. And to be honest, I expect the same to happen for Holland after a couple of years (officially he will retire with some kind of title). This team in the future likely will be a bubble team which in the season's end will clearly stay out of the playoffs (like Devils).
Holland added second tier piece and once again a pretty washed veteran. Top FAs seem to avoid Wings pretty effectively (Stamkos didn't even bothered to meet them, but he did bothered to meet Toronto and Buffalo - two latest tank teams in the league. It should tell enough). And it's not that Wings have been some power house drafting wise the last roughly +10 seasons (not actually bad either). Those additions will keep you from falling to the bottom, but those are nearly not enough to make you actually competitive. And 6 years contracts to 32 years old don't usually end up looking good. Though, I think Nielsen (atm) is a better player than many seems to know here.
Sabres tanked for two seasons. So we saw two seasons pretty bad hockey... But the organisation sold the plan to the fans well. Fans knew exactly what is happening, so stomaching putrid hockey was a lot more tolerable. Our GM also told us that he is going to improve the team during the last tank season - and he did (Kane, ROR, Lehner, Franson etc.). We pulled ourselves out of the bottom of the league (I don't think Sabres have been or are going to be another Edmonton. They have done the things Edmonton didn't (traded their picks and prospects for immediate, yet young pieces to get the team out of the bottom before they get used to it). This off-season he has told playoffs being the goal. He made two strong pick ups (Kulikov and Okposo) to strengthen the team, and might have more in his sleeves. I think that during the upcoming season Detroit and Buffalo are a lot closer in the standings than many think they will. But it remains to be seen.
This post wasn't posted to mock or insult. It was to offer meaningless 2 cents, because I think I know the situation Wings and Wings' fans as a community are right now. And that situation might be one of the most frustrated ones in the current NHL.
I just hope that not that many here are buying Holland's "it takes 10 years to rebuild" - because it really doesn't. Tim Murray said that anyone telling that it takes +5 years to make a rebuild is just buying himself some undeserved time (it was pretty much after he was appointed as the GM). It was a pretty bold statement, IMO, but also indicated that many GMs are just trying to cover their bases. This upcoming season is a season number 3 for Sabres on their rebuild, and I doubt they are 7 years away from icing a contender - if they ever will.
Devils are also a prime example - before Lou got canned. And to be honest, I expect the same to happen for Holland after a couple of years (officially he will retire with some kind of title). This team in the future likely will be a bubble team which in the season's end will clearly stay out of the playoffs (like Devils).
Holland added second tier piece and once again a pretty washed veteran. Top FAs seem to avoid Wings pretty effectively (Stamkos didn't even bothered to meet them, but he did bothered to meet Toronto and Buffalo - two latest tank teams in the league. It should tell enough). And it's not that Wings have been some power house drafting wise the last roughly +10 seasons (not actually bad either). Those additions will keep you from falling to the bottom, but those are nearly not enough to make you actually competitive. And 6 years contracts to 32 years old don't usually end up looking good. Though, I think Nielsen (atm) is a better player than many seems to know here.
Sabres tanked for two seasons. So we saw two seasons pretty bad hockey... But the organisation sold the plan to the fans well. Fans knew exactly what is happening, so stomaching putrid hockey was a lot more tolerable. Our GM also told us that he is going to improve the team during the last tank season - and he did (Kane, ROR, Lehner, Franson etc.). We pulled ourselves out of the bottom of the league (I don't think Sabres have been or are going to be another Edmonton. They have done the things Edmonton didn't (traded their picks and prospects for immediate, yet young pieces to get the team out of the bottom before they get used to it). This off-season he has told playoffs being the goal. He made two strong pick ups (Kulikov and Okposo) to strengthen the team, and might have more in his sleeves. I think that during the upcoming season Detroit and Buffalo are a lot closer in the standings than many think they will. But it remains to be seen.
This post wasn't posted to mock or insult. It was to offer meaningless 2 cents, because I think I know the situation Wings and Wings' fans as a community are right now. And that situation might be one of the most frustrated ones in the current NHL.
I just hope that not that many here are buying Holland's "it takes 10 years to rebuild" - because it really doesn't. Tim Murray said that anyone telling that it takes +5 years to make a rebuild is just buying himself some undeserved time (it was pretty much after he was appointed as the GM). It was a pretty bold statement, IMO, but also indicated that many GMs are just trying to cover their bases. This upcoming season is a season number 3 for Sabres on their rebuild, and I doubt they are 7 years away from icing a contender - if they ever will.
really, does that go for darren helm?
if you think for one second performance will dictate roster spots over contract term and money you're out of touch with reality man
ken holland has intentionally built the same roster the same way that has failed over and over and over and over and over again
he did absolutely NOTHING that he said he would do at the end of season presser, he lied, he is a liar
and to those who think NOW we will make a trade, the same clowns who said the TDL is not the time to make trades, the draft is, the week in between the draft and free agency is, when will you wake up and face facts.
we're not trading for anyone, the roster size will be trimmed via the waiver wire(jurco or pulkinnen) and thats it, nothing more
Roomba With a Bauer
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- Sep 11, 2007
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Reading that article, I am really impressed by just how much the Wings buttoned down the local media in the aftermath of the Cotsonika/Bowman dust-up back in the 90s. In any other city the local media would be skewering them. The Tigers media is the same way. Sunshine and rainbows.
Tells me players aren't stupid. They can see which teams are mired in the muck and which teams are on the cusp of contending. They see teams with a plan and young talent just waiting to take over vs teams that are perennial bubble teams.
I'm not surprised they go with the former.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
For one, some decisions are on the coach. If you want a coach that always goes for the young player instead of the proven veteran, you may be looking a long time. Go to other team's boards, most teams complain that their coach chooses to play veteran guys over the up and coming prospect.
But for sure I believe that if AA performs well, he will be given room on the roster. They managed to find room for him last year for 30+ games, it's pretty rare for the Wings to give a kid that many games and then give them less games the next season. At minimum AA is probably looking at 40-50 games, if he is playing well.
Vanek, Ott, Miller, Jurco and Pulkkinen won't be given anything for free this year. Certainly I think AA has a bigger chance than most of them to be in the top 9 on opening night.
ricky0034
Registered User
- Jun 8, 2010
- 15,053
- 7,274
Jurco and Pulkkinen aren't on the team right now either
the top 9 WILL be Zetterberg,Helm,Abdelkader,Nielsen,Vanek,Nyquist, Tatar,Sheahan,Larkin and there's absolutely nothing the likes of AA(or Mantha,or Jurco/Pulkkinen for that matter) can do about it no matter how well they play other than hope for injuries or a trade
laugh
Pavels Dog
Registered User
Well, we'll se in 3 months. That would be a solid top 9, I'd be fine with it. Call up AA and Mantha at first opportunity if that's how we start. But I'm sure we will stay 100% healthy all season or something.Jurco and Pulkkinen aren't on the team right now either
the top 9 WILL be Zetterberg,Helm,Abdelkader,Nielsen,Vanek,Nyquist, Tatar,Sheahan,Larkin and there's absolutely nothing the likes of AA(or Mantha,or Jurco/Pulkkinen for that matter) can do about it no matter how well they play other than hope for injuries or a trade
Electric Eric
#91 To the Rafters!
Normally I disagree with you on nearly everything you say, especially when it comes to Wings prospects. Think you have a bias in the opposite direction as Wings fans, not sure why, but its there.
That being said, I 100% agree with you on this. The rebuild on the fly has/is failing and we're just kicking the can now.
Should've tanked as soon as the new arena was announced, then hopefully they could've hit the new barn on the upswing.
of course some decisions are on the coach but who is signed to what term and what money is on the GM, and no GM will say bench some newly signed veteran for a rookie
AA got ice time because we didnt have ott and vanek and miller, thats the ONLY reason, if we did have those bodies and none were injured he wouldnt have played 30 games
vanek and miller will be given a free ride as they're veterans of the league and/or the team and in the case of vanek are paid 3 or 4 times as much as mantha or AA
i agree though i am sure other teams complain about rookies and icetime, but i guarantee no other club signs so many veterans at the expense of all their own rookie prospects
this times 1000
KH needs to move on and upward and a new voice with a new vision needs to be at the helm
People understand the difference in context though, right? If you want to burn it down the rebuild happens almost immediately... it's just that it's not complete any time soon.
That's the difference.
When people around here agitate for a rebuild what they're actually asking for is a total fire sale of pretty much any decent player on the roster with trade value, 2-4 years of absolute suckage, and then maybe if everything works out the team is back where they are now 5 years later, except with a younger core. Maybe. If the early 1's don't pan out you have to add years onto that time frame.
What the Wings appear to prefer is that oft-maligned 'rebuild on the fly' phrase, where they try and stay fairly competitive and then tinker with the team here and there. If they catch a break and land a big player via UFA or the draft, the team gets dangerous quick... if not, then they just sort of hover around the top of the league's middle third.
As far as comparison's to Buffalo's recent history goes, I could not disagree more. I like the futures of the 'young' (sub 26ish) players on Detroit's roster considerably more than those that were on the Buffalo roster. It's incredibly easy to do that, because we know how all those young players in Buffalo turned out. Vanek, Myers, Stafford and Gerbe all either flatlined or declined. They never found a replacement for Miller.
Now, sure, after really really stinking for a couple years following just kind of stinking for 2 they got consecutive top 3 picks and seem to have done well with them.
The problem with trying to replicate that kind of awfulness in Detroit is that the team drafts way too consistently and is way too successful finding competent NHL-quality players to get bad enough where they're like the 2nd or 3rd worst team in the NHL. They lost something like 500 man games from all their starters in 2014, and most of those from key players, and still made the playoffs. That's how deep Detroit is talentwise.
Not much on the top end obviously, but man do they have a bunch of solid players rattling around the system.
Classicnamesup
MVP Backhand Slapper
Is that why the team is where they are now, they draft way too good? 
A ten year rebuild, that is rich. We are 5 years in and marginally worse than 5 years ago. Datsyuk mercifully forced the needle a bit further. Don't blame him, playing on this team must be painful now
A ten year rebuild, that is rich. We are 5 years in and marginally worse than 5 years ago. Datsyuk mercifully forced the needle a bit further. Don't blame him, playing on this team must be painful now
I don't have a problem with "rebuild on the fly" approach as long as they also have a plan for the future. However, in my opinion, what Kenny has done is just too much of year to year basis thinking. I think he needs to think about the long term effect of his signing and player development.
I agree that we are not lacking depth in middle six forward group. That's why I don't understand why he had to sign Helm for 5 years. If he was an established first line player, I wouldn't have a problem with 5 year contract extension even if we had some good prospects waiting for their turns.
Probie
Registered User
Holland has got to go. Helm contract is brutal anyone can see that, for him to offer that contract shows he's compromised in terms of loving his own players and Dillon out contracts that hurt the team. He better make a friggin trade for a dman, who cares if we lose the trade a bit, we still have enough assets and extra depth up front to make a Move. If we land a guy like trouba or fowler or shatty, and make some room up front, I would be happy. For Christ sakes leave some room for the youth to develop, how else do they get better?
LastWordArmy
Registered User
Evaluating all the Red Wings moves to date.
http://lastwordonsports.com/2016/07/03/red-wings-evaluating-every-july-1st-signing/
http://lastwordonsports.com/2016/07/03/red-wings-evaluating-every-july-1st-signing/
TheOctopusKid
Registered User
- Sep 24, 2010
- 1,390
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Com on HD, were nothing like the Sabres from 2013! They were crammed with aging, under performing veterans like Steve Ott, and Thomas Vanek, and...wait...
Run the Jewels
Make Detroit Great Again
Thanks for stopping by. Holland has been clear that he's not committed to building a Cup winner so there are some baby steps taking place. This offseason he said if you want to win Stanley Cups you're in the wrong league. It was classic Ken Holland - the NHL is the only sport where you can obviously win the Stanley Cup, but he is correct that this roster/core will never win a championship. Reality can have that effect. Holland used to say all you needed to do was make the playoffs and anything can happen. We haven't heard that bit of wishful thinking for a few years now. Now he realizes there is no path to a Stanley Cup with his preferred method of managing his team.
I can understand why our GM has reduced his goal to keeping the playoff streak alive since he only has two more seasons on his contract. He'll fight and claw to keep the playoff streak alive but with teams like Tampa, Florida, Toronto and Buffalo getting better his margin for error is miniscule - if it even exists. I also understand the marketing benefit of trying to maintain the streak as we move into a new arena. It's like calling Detroit Hockeytown or calling a pizza Hot 'N Ready. Ilitch is a gifted marketer.
Generally speaking, the fans who embrace the current approach as being capable of building a Cup winner are the ones who still thought our window to win another Cup was open in 2011-12. That was the year the team pretty much saw it's play irrevocably drop off and we haven't seen any real uptick since then. That's fine. As a fan you point out Chicago, Los Angeles and Pittsburgh - teams that have won a combined 7 Stanley Cups since 2008-09 - have shown how you build a winner in league with a hard salary cap. They always respond with Edmonton. I don't engage in the back and forth because really what is the point?
I predicted our playoff streak would end last year and was wrong. But not by much. It required Ottawa beating Boston on the final day of the season for the streak to continue. Again, the margin for attaining your goal is getting narrower and narrower. We don't do major trades to address the lack of talent on defense, and we don't draft well enough to address those needs. It will be a massive struggle just to keep the playoff streak alive, let alone become a Stanley Cup championship team.
Our general manager has accepted this as being the ultimate goal and my guess is it's because he'll probably move on from managing the team after his current contact expires. The hope for those of us who don't want to go another 42 years between championships is we will be able to lure Steve Yzerman back to engage in the only proven way you build a Cup champion in a salary capped league. He's proven he's quite capable in running the Bolts and has taken them to 3 conference finals and one Stanley Cup Final. That team is poised to be good for the next 5-8 years and their odds or winning multiple championships are as good as anyone.
Until that day comes all we can do is simply wait.
Yemack
Registered User
- Oct 30, 2007
- 8,246
- 5
yeah I know Sabres got so much better since 2013, they just might playoff this season.
TheOtherOne
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- Jan 2, 2010
- 8,274
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Why does Holland take all the blame while the players don't seem to take any?
What happens in an alternate reality where Z and Kronwall decline a little more slowly and our prospects improve a little more quickly? What if Jurco and Pulkkinen were as good right now as we expected them to be come when they were still shiny new toys? What if one of Marchenko/Ouellet/Sproul/someoneelse just found his groove and started killin it? A lot of this stuff could have realistically happened.
And at the same time, in the real world, we were actually 1 goal away from winning a series against the eventual Cup winners. It's not a huge stretch to suggest that one or two positive steps for certain players could have put us over the edge.
Yea we would all love an unstoppable roster full of superstars but in a league with this much parity you have to hope for those kind of developments that may or may not happen. And just because they didn't doesn't mean it's anybody's fault. Tough luck, let's hope the new wave of shiny toys does a better job.
What happens in an alternate reality where Z and Kronwall decline a little more slowly and our prospects improve a little more quickly? What if Jurco and Pulkkinen were as good right now as we expected them to be come when they were still shiny new toys? What if one of Marchenko/Ouellet/Sproul/someoneelse just found his groove and started killin it? A lot of this stuff could have realistically happened.
And at the same time, in the real world, we were actually 1 goal away from winning a series against the eventual Cup winners. It's not a huge stretch to suggest that one or two positive steps for certain players could have put us over the edge.
Yea we would all love an unstoppable roster full of superstars but in a league with this much parity you have to hope for those kind of developments that may or may not happen. And just because they didn't doesn't mean it's anybody's fault. Tough luck, let's hope the new wave of shiny toys does a better job.
Of course the playoff streak is more important then you think. Holland listens to the owner of the team and they don't wanna tank. Nothing can be done.
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