GDT: Off-Season Thread IV - July 1st 'Oh ****' Edition
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SpookyTsuki
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- Dec 3, 2014
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Henkka
Registered User
Own division:
1. TBL
2. FLO
3. DET/BOS/MTL
4. BOS/MTL/DET
5. MTL/DET/BOS
6. OTT/BUF
7. BUF/OTT
8. TOR
Florida could also fall as down as 5th. Probably too many changes. Takes time to build new chemistries.
People forget this garbage team, with it's garbage powerplay and garbage goal differential, only finished four points behind the great Tampa Bay last season.
KJoe88
Forever Lost.
People forget this garbage team, with it's garbage powerplay and garbage goal differential, only finished four points behind the great Tampa Bay last season.
I get we're not cup contenders, but people are way to down on the team.
Heaton
Moderator
People forget this garbage team, with it's garbage powerplay and garbage goal differential, only finished four points behind the great Tampa Bay last season.
And then we got destroyed by them in the playoffs.
SpookyTsuki
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I think Florida is gonna be number 3 tbh. They won't win the division again I think. They should have been a wildcard team this year at best
If you're not going for the Cup, why do you bring in 2d tier or worse free agents to prevent your young guys playing? 32, 33,34 year old guys. Nielsen had 20 goals last year. AA had 10 playing 6-7 minutes a game for half a season. And Mantha was up long enough for a cup of Joe at the Joe.
Kind of hard to have a chance when your team's highest-paid player checked out before the series even started.
Syckle78
Registered User
Yep,that's totes why we lost. And why is it we've only won one playoff series in the last 4 years? And now our best player who kept us from competing that series is now gone so surely we'll be better!
Kucherov and Hedman absolutely played that series. Not sure what you're talking about.
Point is Datsyuk had to perform for this team to have a chance at winning and he didn't.
Heaton
Moderator
Stamkos and Stralman didn't. Anyway, the regular season is meaningless if you go out and get molly wopped in the playoffs.
Run the Jewels
Make Detroit Great Again
It's laughable. Tampa's been to three conference finals and one Cup Finals over the past 6 seasons. They have a good young core and there's every reason to expect them to continue to compete for championships.
The Red Wings have made it past the first round twice in the past six years and haven't gone any further. The core has aged and the salary cap is tied up with aging veterans who are either past their prime or will be well before their current contracts end.
Yes, those two franchises seem eerily similar.
Cyborg Yzerberg
Registered User
1. TB
2. Florida
3 Montreal
4. Buffalo
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. Ottawa
8. Toronto
Is what I'm expecting
2. Florida
3 Montreal
4. Buffalo
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. Ottawa
8. Toronto
Is what I'm expecting
SpookyTsuki
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People realize outside of Mcdavid, Eichel, and Matthews where the other incredible tanking teams picks have gotten them. We talk about tank teams and they come to mind as Pitt, that has Crosby, Malkin, Flurry, Staal, went how many years as a awful awful team, and took 10 years and won 2 cups, and the 2nd won was 11 years after drafting Crosby and longer then the rest.
Chicago, yes they became a dynasty, but they won the lottery over Philly for Kane, but JVR on that team and tell me that have 3 cups, because no one would agee. Edmonton is the easy excuse as why tanking isn't the answer, people talk Toronto, one of the most unsuccessful franchises in the last decade and only now 10 years later to they have anything to show, which is 3 kids under 20. And that's saying marner and nylander become studs, because 2nd overall picks always do... (Ryan, JVR... Etc) so obviously later picks do.
Remember Colorado... Duchene, Landeskog, Mack... Man they are owning the league how many years later... I'm naming teams we have been better then for years...
People need to get off Tanking is the Answer,
1) we would need to sell everyone... And I mean everyone... Outside of Larkin, Mantha, and younger... Then try to lose, not once, but for uears ... And even if we are dead last... Maybe get lucky and get 1 guy like mcdavid, or eichel, but also get guys like JVR, Ryan, Luke Schenn, Larsson... The list of not gigantic impact players is less then mcdavid and eichel/Matthews
Tanking is misery for years... 5 minimum, no there is no such thing as a short tank, name a single team that has done it ever... Don't say chicago... Outside Kane and toews.... Name another big impact outside of Hossa, Seabrook, and Keith....
Tanking DOESNT work... And the side note the two teams it did work for... Pitt and Chicago...
The two best players Kane and Crosby...
Kane should have been in Philly, and Crosby was a lock out year where every team has the same odds...
Pitt doesn't win a thing without Crosby, Chicago doesn't without Kane...... Simple as that
And seriously, as wings fans... Your going to tell me the 09 finals weren't a joke, which had 4 top 4 picks, and we had 0????
Chicago, yes they became a dynasty, but they won the lottery over Philly for Kane, but JVR on that team and tell me that have 3 cups, because no one would agee. Edmonton is the easy excuse as why tanking isn't the answer, people talk Toronto, one of the most unsuccessful franchises in the last decade and only now 10 years later to they have anything to show, which is 3 kids under 20. And that's saying marner and nylander become studs, because 2nd overall picks always do... (Ryan, JVR... Etc) so obviously later picks do.
Remember Colorado... Duchene, Landeskog, Mack... Man they are owning the league how many years later... I'm naming teams we have been better then for years...
People need to get off Tanking is the Answer,
1) we would need to sell everyone... And I mean everyone... Outside of Larkin, Mantha, and younger... Then try to lose, not once, but for uears ... And even if we are dead last... Maybe get lucky and get 1 guy like mcdavid, or eichel, but also get guys like JVR, Ryan, Luke Schenn, Larsson... The list of not gigantic impact players is less then mcdavid and eichel/Matthews
Tanking is misery for years... 5 minimum, no there is no such thing as a short tank, name a single team that has done it ever... Don't say chicago... Outside Kane and toews.... Name another big impact outside of Hossa, Seabrook, and Keith....
Tanking DOESNT work... And the side note the two teams it did work for... Pitt and Chicago...
The two best players Kane and Crosby...
Kane should have been in Philly, and Crosby was a lock out year where every team has the same odds...
Pitt doesn't win a thing without Crosby, Chicago doesn't without Kane...... Simple as that
And seriously, as wings fans... Your going to tell me the 09 finals weren't a joke, which had 4 top 4 picks, and we had 0????
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JiminyCricket
Registered User
Anyone who would want the Wings to tank is nuts, in my opinion. You should want them to win no matter what. Maybe a change of staff in the organization, but never a tank. That's a terrible idea. I watch the Wings to watch them win. If tanking is the answer then I'm no longer a fan of the team. If they let the staff of this organization get that bad that it's the only option, then I'm no longer watching them at that point.
The wings aren't to that point. They have a good staff and a decent team. Not extremely happy with the moves lately, but they'll give me some wins and look decent this upcoming season. And that's all I need.
The wings aren't to that point. They have a good staff and a decent team. Not extremely happy with the moves lately, but they'll give me some wins and look decent this upcoming season. And that's all I need.
Unfriendly Ghost
Kasper
But if the Wings head office isn't good enough to make tanking work for them, how are they good enough to rebuild the team without high draft picks? I mean, teams have done the former. They're out there. But nobody else has done the latter, which is probably much harder.
It seems inconsistent to say that you believe the Wings org can do this thing that nobody else can, but when it comes to tanking, which multiple teams have made work, they just couldn't handle it. Why couldn't the Wings build from a tank? Is it because it flat out cannot be done by anyone? Are you guys saying that none of those teams have skillfully handled tanking, and that it's all been blind luck this entire time?
If you look at teams who tanked and it hasn't worked out, it's been because they haven't had good supporting casts for their stars. Why couldn't that work for Ken Holland, who lives for building depth? He would be a kid in a candy store if his job was to find 2nd and 3rd line players, or build third pairing and down. And he's good at doing that. It seems like a really weird claim to say that Ken Holland would mess that up.
Really, what is it about tanking that wouldn't work for Detroit? I still don't know. The Illitches wouldn't be happy, but we know that. We're talking about why it isn't a viable option hockey-wise.
SpookyTsuki
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But who won without tanking? That's the whole point. Outside of a few years. Every teams tanked at some point
I don't think "tanking" is as easy as some fans seem to think it is. For one, the Wings have multiple NTC, Zetterberg being one notable exception. It doesn't make it impossible to trade a player, but much more difficult. The cap also presents obstacles in trying to make a trade happen. The Wings have enough mediocre players to keep them in the playoffs, but they're not good enough to get a high draft pick in return for or a top 2 defenseman.
The way the draft is set up now, even really bad teams aren't guaranteed a top 5 pick. There could be 10 other teams "tanking" it while you are. So you have to be the worst of the worst. The draft can be a crapshoot and there is no guarantee a future star is at the top of the draft each year.
Detroit does have some pieces to build on already in Larkin and Mrazek. But Holland for the most part, doesn't trust younger players. There was a buzz about Mrazek before the Howard signing, but chicken little didn't want to risk putting in a goaltender before he was 25, so Howard gets a long term deal.
It's not to say a rebuild can't take place. But Holland is clearly not the guy to do it. He can't shake his trepidation and what ifs and his MO is trying to find star in the UFA scrap heap. What he doesn't realize is that those scrap heap guys he got before re emerged because they were playing with superstars. I thought Datsyuk leaving was the reality check he needed, but nope, more of the same.
There was a genuine opportunity to start reshaping the team this offseason. Yandle was available, a RH puckmoving defenseman, under 30. Kenny was out of the game before it even started. A potential goal scorer in Radulov was available, but Holland lost out to a team that didn't make the playoffs. There are or were players available through trades. Nope, we like our team of over 30 retreads on long term deals. We like sitting Brendan Smith while his value declines, but maybe we can hold out until he's 30 to sign him long term. We'll keep playing Zetterberg 20+ minutes a game, because Nyquist and Tatar aren't proven. We'll continue to dick around with Pulkkinen and Jurco while they approach their mid 20s and see if they magically turn into something by playing more in Grand Rapids.
I'm at a loss as to how anyone can defend Holland after this offseason. Even if some miracle happened and he acquired a defenseman, it doesn't take away from the mess he's already created with the bad contracts and bewildering signings to stockpile a team of bottom 6 forwards.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
"You can't win with all those soft euros"
"you can't win with a team that old"
"You can't win with a european captain"
"you can't win without tanking"
Maybe it's not possible, but the most succesful teams are usually not the ones that try to copy exactly what other teams are doing. If the Wings re-tool into a contender (not as far-fetched as people think) suddenly the door will open, other teams will say "it's possible".
Tanking is the easy answer to people who think Chychrun is a guaranteed superstar and Cholowski is a bum, people who think you always get a Crosby at #1 and a Larkin is 'meh' because he was #15. Our current strategy is less exciting to people who think draft day and July 1 are the highlights of the hockey season. It takes more patience, it takes great development of prospects (which sometimes means bringing them along slowly), it takes finding gems like Athanasiou or Mrazek, it takes getting steals even at #15-20 picks. And we are well on our way.
Not sure why people are listening to the Buffalo fan who still sees the Wings as an aging team building around a veteran core? Dekeyser is currently our #1D, Mrazek our #1G and Larkin our #1C. We are not Buffalo from 5 years ago.
Roomba With a Bauer
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- Sep 11, 2007
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If this team got 5 top ten picks, with a few of those being top 5,for the next 5 years while developing this core, they would have a shot at the cup.
As this team is now this core will be approaching UFA just as a lot of their old, bad, Band-Aids contracts expire, and they will have no shot at the cup within those 5 years, or immediately after those 5 years. When you have no access to top-line or top-pair players it becomes really hard to compete.
I like Dekeyser. He is a good defenseman. If you are looking at Dekeyser as your 1D now and going forward your team has problems.
As this team is now this core will be approaching UFA just as a lot of their old, bad, Band-Aids contracts expire, and they will have no shot at the cup within those 5 years, or immediately after those 5 years. When you have no access to top-line or top-pair players it becomes really hard to compete.
I like Dekeyser. He is a good defenseman. If you are looking at Dekeyser as your 1D now and going forward your team has problems.
evolutionbaby
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- Jan 7, 2012
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With the lottery the now, we get in there once and it could change this team around. Look at the Jets and their roster, is that a team that should be picking #2 overall? They have some holes on that team but is that team really that much different than the Wings? When comparing rosters, I dont see much of a difference in strengths at each position other than goaltending.
HisNoodliness
The Karate Kid and ASP Kai
Honestly the wings are in a perfect situation to tank for a single season. If Mantha Larkin and AA were to spend the first 41 games tearing up the AHL, Z and Kronner get 20 of the first 41 games off to rest their bodies for the year, we let Frk Jurco and Pulkinnen play every night to determine who has a future and who doesn't (same with XO and Sproul), and finally we give Howard 30 of the first 41 starts this team is the worst team in the league halfway through the season.
We then sell of secondary non-future pieces at the deadline for picks and the team will still be bottom five at the end of the year after the kids have come up and Z, and Mrazek have carried us again. Hopefully we get lucky and get a top 3 pick but even if we don't I like our chance of getting an impact player top 5 a lot more than at 14 (note that is not a playoff position) where we'll probably pick next year. Sure high picks don't always turn out. But if next off-season our defense is
Fowler-DK
Liljegren-Green
Kronwall-Marchenko
XO/Sproul
I like our team's chance of putting together a good season. Not even necessarily a playoff one but a good one and with another couple of picks and some development MAYBE within 3-5 years we're looking at a contender.
The issue is that generally for tanks teams have historically started with no good future pieces. That's why they take so long. Edmonton has built an entire team from the ground up. We don't need an entire team and with the league as good as it is now (particularly our division next year) We don't need to sell off everything to tank. We just need to ice the non- ideal roster for half a year. We need a third of a team. We can get it with 1 year of tanking, a couple of other decent 10-15 picks for good but not necessarily elite players and then good developing of our other prospects.
The top of the 2017 draft looks like it's going to have 3 stud D btw ( of course we're still a year out so they could all have bad years and be more meh prospects at the draft or two other guys could have beast years and Liljegren and co could have great years, then we're talking about the best D draft in the last ten years and the wings miss out because we wanted a shot at 26 years).
I just know that the Holland method will not work without a miracle (Cholowski or our 2017 mid first round pick become Hedman and the other is a top line guy. Mantha, AA and Svech are all very good top 6 guys. Larkin and Mrazek both fulfill their maximum potential AND on top of all this we can effectively survive cap hell when these guys are ready for contacts and we still have Z, Kronner, Nielsen and 1-3 other 5 million+ free agents signed as that's what the Holland method will give us. While we're at it how about we hope that Lidstrom discovers the fountain of youth and comes and plays for us until the end of time for $1 million AAV.)
Or we can lighten the cap load for ourselves in the future without signing long term free agents, and get a guy we can build around on defense. One elite player can change a team's entire complexion. Imagine Tampa without Hedman, Chicago without Keith, LA without Doughty, or to be familiar the 97, 98, 02 and 08 Red Wings without Lidstrom. Chicago and LA don't win any cups without those guys. Tampa isn't a perennial contender without Hedman. We maybe get one of those four cups without Lidstrom.
Sure, I know that we're discussing drafting so we can't guarantee getting an elite #1 D or even a good NHL defenseman but right now there are guys in this draft who project to be elite #1 D, and you're telling me it's smarter to fight tooth and nail to finish 16th in the league and get throttled by Tampa again than to have a shot at one of those guys?
We then sell of secondary non-future pieces at the deadline for picks and the team will still be bottom five at the end of the year after the kids have come up and Z, and Mrazek have carried us again. Hopefully we get lucky and get a top 3 pick but even if we don't I like our chance of getting an impact player top 5 a lot more than at 14 (note that is not a playoff position) where we'll probably pick next year. Sure high picks don't always turn out. But if next off-season our defense is
Fowler-DK
Liljegren-Green
Kronwall-Marchenko
XO/Sproul
I like our team's chance of putting together a good season. Not even necessarily a playoff one but a good one and with another couple of picks and some development MAYBE within 3-5 years we're looking at a contender.
The issue is that generally for tanks teams have historically started with no good future pieces. That's why they take so long. Edmonton has built an entire team from the ground up. We don't need an entire team and with the league as good as it is now (particularly our division next year) We don't need to sell off everything to tank. We just need to ice the non- ideal roster for half a year. We need a third of a team. We can get it with 1 year of tanking, a couple of other decent 10-15 picks for good but not necessarily elite players and then good developing of our other prospects.
The top of the 2017 draft looks like it's going to have 3 stud D btw ( of course we're still a year out so they could all have bad years and be more meh prospects at the draft or two other guys could have beast years and Liljegren and co could have great years, then we're talking about the best D draft in the last ten years and the wings miss out because we wanted a shot at 26 years).
I just know that the Holland method will not work without a miracle (Cholowski or our 2017 mid first round pick become Hedman and the other is a top line guy. Mantha, AA and Svech are all very good top 6 guys. Larkin and Mrazek both fulfill their maximum potential AND on top of all this we can effectively survive cap hell when these guys are ready for contacts and we still have Z, Kronner, Nielsen and 1-3 other 5 million+ free agents signed as that's what the Holland method will give us. While we're at it how about we hope that Lidstrom discovers the fountain of youth and comes and plays for us until the end of time for $1 million AAV.)
Or we can lighten the cap load for ourselves in the future without signing long term free agents, and get a guy we can build around on defense. One elite player can change a team's entire complexion. Imagine Tampa without Hedman, Chicago without Keith, LA without Doughty, or to be familiar the 97, 98, 02 and 08 Red Wings without Lidstrom. Chicago and LA don't win any cups without those guys. Tampa isn't a perennial contender without Hedman. We maybe get one of those four cups without Lidstrom.
Sure, I know that we're discussing drafting so we can't guarantee getting an elite #1 D or even a good NHL defenseman but right now there are guys in this draft who project to be elite #1 D, and you're telling me it's smarter to fight tooth and nail to finish 16th in the league and get throttled by Tampa again than to have a shot at one of those guys?
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