OFF DAY THREAD! We give points away for free!

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KIRK

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Aug 2, 2005
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Last game was about as black and white as possible. It wasn't Crosby at all, it was having a doofus on his RW.

The result kind of confirms that, but god mode Sid could carry E-ROD, even now.

In a sense, @Empoleon8771 is correct about that.

What he fails to comprehend-- and this an added reason I found @Jesse's article about Malkin so enjoyable-- is that even Sid isn't god mode 24/7 anymore.

So, when he's in a rut. When his instinct tells him to cheat more offensively to hold up his end of the production bargain at 5 on 5 and it's making things worse, you need something to snap him out of it.

And in THIS case, having E-ROD on his wing is a problem, simply because E-ROD was NOT part of the solution for Sid, and a blind man could've seen that.

With Malkin, it may not be so much about having skilled linemates or even the right skilled linemates per se when he's in a funk. BUT, it takes a willingness to try anything with Malkin and then to stick with it, even if it's outside of the box, when a spark is lit to see if it gets built on.

EDIT: The funny thing is I'm actually using @Jesse's article to say 'okay I get it' to Sullivan's tone and usage with Malkin, and @Empoleon8771 is crying about that being unfair to Sullivan. :help:
 
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Empoleon8771

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Here's the big issue I have with the Malkin and his wingers talk: I get that certain players don't work well together, and it makes it even harder to break out of funks. I completely get that. But at the same point, Malkin isn't playing with scrubs. I think his only linemates so far this year have been Zucker, Rust, McCann and Kapanen, I don't recall him playing with anyone else but that group. At some point, you can't just keep saying "you need to play Malkin with the right wingers" and say "Malkin needs to adjust to work with what he has".

They're not throwing ERod, who I'm having growing doubts of him even being a NHLer, with Malkin here. He's playing with at worst 2nd/3rd line tweeners, and at best guys who have 30 goal seasons (or paced for 30 goals if not for the pandemic) on his line. Malkin's wingers not being a good fit for him as he's in a funk and making bad decisions isn't a justification that his wingers are a problem, it means Malkin needs to stop trying to force bad decisions to get out of his funk. Malkin needs to adjust his game to work with the linemates he has, because it's extremely likely that his linemates at every point this year will be 2 of McCann, Rust, Zucker and Kapanen.

I personally want to see Guentzel with Malkin, because I like Zucker and Crosby as a duo and I really haven't been happy with what I've seen from the Guentzel-Crosby duo. But at the same time, neither of those guys are being handicapped if Sullivan sticks with Guentzel and Crosby together. If Malkin could make a line without Jake Guentzel work prior to Guentzel-Malkin-Rust, I really don't see why it should be any different now. Zucker and Rust are arguably 2 of the 5 best wingers the Penguins have ever had in the Crosby and Malkin era, they're right on par with prime Hornqvist and Kunitz. The difference between Guentzel and Zucker on Malkin's LW shouldn't be the difference between Malkin playing well or not playing well, especially considering how much Rust excelled with Malkin last year.
 

LOGiK

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Nov 14, 2007
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To make you feel better I have a very Bob Grove stat for you: Mike Sullivan hasn’t won a single game in Boston as coach of the Pens...bet on the Bruins

Boston really good at stifling the penguins. This one could be ugly and frustrating... I hope not, but I am sort of expecting it.

Idk but he hasn’t been very good recently with the PP qbing....I would look in another direction if I were the Steelers....

Report: Steelers talking to Mike Sullivan about becoming QB coach - ProFootballTalk

Is this for real? How can you court a head coach (under contract) to work as a lesser coach in a different league... seems so weird.
 
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KIRK

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Here's the big issue I have with the Malkin and his wingers talk: I get that certain players don't work well together, and it makes it even harder to break out of funks. I completely get that. But at the same point, Malkin isn't playing with scrubs. I think his only linemates so far this year have been Zucker, Rust, McCann and Kapanen, I don't recall him playing with anyone else but that group. At some point, you can't just keep saying "you need to play Malkin with the right wingers" and say "Malkin needs to adjust to work with what he has".

They're not throwing ERod, who I'm having growing doubts of him even being a NHLer, with Malkin here. He's playing with at worst 2nd/3rd line tweeners, and at best guys who have 30 goal seasons (or paced for 30 goals if not for the pandemic) on his line. Malkin's wingers not being a good fit for him as he's in a funk and making bad decisions isn't a justification that his wingers are a problem, it means Malkin needs to stop trying to force bad decisions to get out of his funk. Malkin needs to adjust his game to work with the linemates he has, because it's extremely likely that his linemates at every point this year will be 2 of McCann, Rust, Zucker and Kapanen.

I personally want to see Guentzel with Malkin, because I like Zucker and Crosby as a duo and I really haven't been happy with what I've seen from the Guentzel-Crosby duo. But at the same time, neither of those guys are being handicapped if Sullivan sticks with Guentzel and Crosby together. If Malkin could make a line without Jake Guentzel work prior to Guentzel-Malkin-Rust, I really don't see why it should be any different now. Zucker and Rust are arguably 2 of the 5 best wingers the Penguins have ever had in the Crosby and Malkin era, they're right on par with prime Hornqvist and Kunitz. The difference between Guentzel and Zucker on Malkin's LW shouldn't be the difference between Malkin playing well or not playing well, especially considering how much Rust excelled with Malkin last year.

Except that was last year, as @Jesse's article begins.

Jake never played with Malkin when he wasn't playing well.

So, you're comparing an apple (god mode Malkin last year) to an orange (Malkin in a mega rut this year).

Is it truly this hard to comprehend?

When Malkin (or Sid) are playing well, they can play with anyone.

When they aren't playing well, it's about finding the right mix to snap them out of it and ceases to be about whether a winger is good in the abstract or whether a winger worked in the past.

Ergo, why a coach juggles a stars' line or talks about finding combinations like Sullivan.

Okay, that said, you may now go back to telling me how all of this is somehow biased against Sullivan.
 

KIRK

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Aug 2, 2005
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Boston really good at stifling the penguins. This one could be ugly and frustrating... I hope not, but I am sort of expecting it.



Is this for real? How can you court a head coach (under contract) to work as a lesser coach in a different league... seems so weird.

This is why we're going to find out really fast if Rust to L1 snapped Sid out of his own 5 on 5 funk or if it was just about how awful the Rangers are.
 

LOGiK

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Nov 14, 2007
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Come on, read this...I posted it as a joke...it’s a different Mike Sullivan

oh... haha...

That's why I didn't read it... figured it wasn't real, but it was nbcsn so I was wondering...

I got a lot going on... posting quickly between what I'm doing and shouldn't be.
 

Peat

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Jun 14, 2016
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That's a false choice.

Meaningful change comes with correctly identifying problem areas - failing to do that results in throwing out the baby with the bathwater. An 82 point winger who provided an irreplaceable element on the PP, and a consistent 50 point winger with best net front presence in the league - both of whom very much worth their cap hits to this team - were not problems, they were scapegoats.

The worst defenseman in the league with a 3+ mil cap hit was a problem, one that was deliberately ignored for 2 years for ego's sake. A 5+ mil defenseman who never recovered from a leg injury but was consistently played regardless was a problem. The coach's deferral to Crosby returning from injury after Guentzel-Malkin-Rust was destroying the league without him was a problem. The lack of a quality 3C was a problem.

These were what needed to be addressed. They either weren't, or were addressed after others ended up as collateral damage.

If your idea of meaningful change is swap out a bottom pairing that didn't play together much, just a bit too much at the wrong moment (and weren't even the biggest problem then), while leaving an ageing core together because they're the PP despite problems starting from 18-19, then we're gonna disagree on what meaningful is. To me, that's shuffling around the edges. To me, that doesn't address the problems at the top of the line up (which JJ exacerbated but did not create before you say it).

But still, fair enough if that's what you wanted. I just don't see that as actual attempts to change the trajectory.
 

Will Hunting

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Empoleon´s premise is right with Geno. He should be able to be solid if he has 2 good wingers, no matter who they are. If he´s not able to do that, that is Malkin´s fault and we should be worried.

This is fair. However, expecting Guentzel and Sid to produce with blackhole like ERod and putting blame on them was not fair at all. It was also visible that Jake and Sid tried, they were active but opposition basically could focus on them and leave ERod alone and it was working for them because ERod was THAT USELESS there. ERod´s injury and what happened after that fully proved Empoleon wrong there.

Our stars declined a little, that´s not a secret. Maybe they would be able to produce with scrubs like ERod in the past but I am not gonna criticize them if they are not able to do that now. They are still very good or at least they are supposed to be very good. Give them support. Only if they fail with decent support, I will point fingers on them. So far, it´s fair to point fingers on Geno this season. He certainly is under my microscope now.

Sid was fine in the playoffs too, Geno wasn´t. Sid is producing over PPG this season as well, despite playing every period but one with scrub on his RW and suffering from it. If Geno gets it together, I see a VERY VERY GOOD team all of a sudden.
 
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Ugene Magic

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I'm not sure why @Jesse would call this an article of 'uncomfortable truths' in his tweet last night.

He basically said that Malkin traditional response to being snakebitten (being desperate to have the puck on his stick and desperate to create offense) is why he's forcing shit with the puck and cheating offensively all over the ice in terms of his defensive responsibility.

When you do these overly risky things and they don't work out, you're automatically way out of position defensively, which I assume is why @Jesse prefaced the article by noting that tape shows Malkin is, for the most part, following his defensive responsibilities and any gaffes in terms of not recognizing an assignment are no more widespread than most at this juncture.

Frankly, the uncomfortable truth that @Jesse advertised in all of this is that this 6 game stretch is worse in terms of the defensive metrics than any 6 game stretch in the last two years (not emphasized is that his offensive production may be its worst for any 6 game stretch of the last two years).

Last tidbit: Malkin's best partners this season have been Pets and Ruh, the safest defensemen. His worst? John Marino, especially in the last two games. Unmentioned is who Marino's partner has been (cc: @Gurglesons).

Anyway, the good news, from my perspective, is that @Jesse's article implies that the tape shows Malkin's issues are not about him being lazy per se or falling off a cliff (and needing to move to wing as my friend @ColePens recently opined :razz: ).

I also wonder (and this wasn't a topic of the article) if THIS is the reason for Sullivan's tone on Malkin, that for all of his gifts, Malkin's fatal flaw is when it isn't happening for him offensively, his instinct always has been to force things offensively when the answer always is to be patient, simplify things offensively, and just play it safe defensively and let the offense come when it comes. In a way, this is an argument against Jake playing with him at a time like this (when both he and, until last game, Sid were struggling, because if anything having Jake would encourage Malkin to force things and cheat offensively even more).

When you consider Sullivan's tone and talk of trying to find combinations, it's like he's recognizing 'I just have to find that spark' (this is something Michel Therrien, for all his faults, always understood, although I'll add it was a lot easier trying to do it for a 20 year old Evgeni Malkin).

Anyway, it's a highly insightful article from @Jesse, especially when you compare it to some of the crap that passes for hockey insight from others in the media.

Holy Shit!!!

You wonder why @Jesse never invited us to his Wedding or the birth of his first child....

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Jesse @HBDPensbros: "You're not even it, @KIRK, stop trying to tag me! I'm untaggable..."
 
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pistolpete11

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Apr 27, 2013
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Malkin's in a rut. It's not the first time it's happened in his career. I'm 100% confident he will get out of it eventually. The question is how to help him get out of it. I'd hope some of the people that the Penguins pay would go back and see what helped him get of ruts in the past. Maybe the answer is nothing and he just needs to play his way out of it.

One theory I'd offer, though, would be to change up his usage. Task him with being a shutdown center more so than a point producer. Start him in the D-zone more. Just get him back to basic, positional hockey. Working hard. Get the puck out. Assuming he can do that without getting scored on a shit ton :laugh:, task complete and maybe the confidence starts to build.
 

DesertPenguin

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Apr 22, 2015
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Malkin's in a rut. It's not the first time it's happened in his career. I'm 100% confident he will get out of it eventually. The question is how to help him get out of it. I'd hope some of the people that the Penguins pay would go back and see what helped him get of ruts in the past. Maybe the answer is nothing and he just needs to play his way out of it.

One theory I'd offer, though, would be to change up his usage. Task him with being a shutdown center more so than a point producer. Start him in the D-zone more. Just get him back to basic, positional hockey. Working hard. Get the puck out. Assuming he can do that without getting scored on a shit ton :laugh:, task complete and maybe the confidence starts to build.
I'd like to see it but I doubt we ever will. Malkin in international play is a beast on the PK, but no coach in Pittsburgh has been willing to try it, ever. Sid gets time there occasionally to win faceoffs or a the end of the PK to hopefully spring a counter, but never Malkin.
 

Flying Dego

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Apr 30, 2013
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I'd like to see it but I doubt we ever will. Malkin in international play is a beast on the PK, but no coach in Pittsburgh has been willing to try it, ever. Sid gets time there occasionally to win faceoffs or a the end of the PK to hopefully spring a counter, but never Malkin.

With our horrible injury luck why would you put Geno in a high risk situation?

You just know he'd take a slapshot somewhere obscure and break something.
 

pistolpete11

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Apr 27, 2013
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I'd like to see it but I doubt we ever will. Malkin in international play is a beast on the PK, but no coach in Pittsburgh has been willing to try it, ever. Sid gets time there occasionally to win faceoffs or a the end of the PK to hopefully spring a counter, but never Malkin.
I think PK is running the risk of injury too much as @Flying Dego said.

I just mean 5-on-5 defensive situations. Therrien used him like that at times IIRC and there was that Hags-Malkin-Hornqvist/Rust stretch where Sully used them in more defensive situations. Geno was just such a beast that they were also scoring a ton of goals as well.
 

vodeni

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well, @Jesse observations and analysis is spot on, and the end of the article raise the question about which d-pair plays behind Geno. I was annoyed by myself at the last two games, bringing up over and over the fact that the second line got CC and Marino behind, and those two guys were awful. They were losing pucks left and right and caving under pretty formidable forecheck. No wonder why the second line could not get much offensive time and has their shots against and expected goals against so terrible. To makes things worse, Zucker could not win one lose puck on the wall, and Kapanen was late pretty much on every puck, dump and chase or stretch passes were comical and lead to zero possession...so there was zero chance to establish any meaningful possession and create some chances. If anyone expects from Geno at this point to skate back, take the puck behind our net, skate out and hold the puck in their zone to establish some kind of cycling or sustained play...well I got some bad news for you. Go figure why his stats were the best this season playing with Petts (who has been our best dman in that short period he played). I am Geno's appologiest sometimes, but at this point, if I were the coach, I am thinking how to best utilize the skills and abilities at this point. And please spare me of lazy BS and not caring etc...He is every bit as engaged as he has been in the past...
 

Ugene Magic

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I'd like to see it but I doubt we ever will. Malkin in international play is a beast on the PK, but no coach in Pittsburgh has been willing to try it, ever. Sid gets time there occasionally to win faceoffs or a the end of the PK to hopefully spring a counter, but never Malkin.

Actually, MT did use him there, just as he would put both Crosby and Malkin together when they were down a goal. Obviously they are nowhere near what they were back then. It just seems like they need high end talent on one side.

Maybe he just needs more time to get up to speed game wise. Part of the issue is the Pens not dominating at any point and they will not be given anything. Meaning, the team has never really been playing with any leads to start games. At least not holding them, and always playing uphill. That's tough sledding for any team.

Get a lead and hold it to boost confidence/moral.

That'll be tough considering who they play all season. We may see them slug through like this all season.
 

vodeni

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Oct 27, 2010
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Actually, MT did use him there, just as he would put both Crosby and Malkin together when they were down a goal. Obviously they are nowhere near what they were back then. It just seems like they need high end talent on one side.

Maybe he just needs more time to get up to speed game wise. Part of the issue is the Pens not dominating at any point and they will not be given anything. Meaning, the team has never really been playing with any leads to start games. At least not holding them, and always playing uphill. That's tough sledding for any team.

Get a lead and hold it to boost confidence/moral.

That'll be tough considering who they play all season. We may see them slug through like this all season.
well they lead the first period in game 5 only to let three goals in 3 minutes in the second...
 
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Jesse

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Holy Shit!!!

You wonder why @Jesse never invited us to his Wedding or the birth of his first child....

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Jesse @HBDPensbros: "You're not even it, @KIRK, stop trying to tag me! I'm untaggable..."

Well, to start, we eloped. There weren't a lot of people there. Went down to the woods in Deep Creek. Way better than a large wedding, IMO.

Also, the first child isn't going to be coming until April 14th-ish, and given the COVID restrictions I don't think you'll be making that event, either. HOWEVER, had we been in a non-pandemic situation, you'd have been on the list with my parents all my other favorite HFboards posters.
 

Andy99

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Jun 26, 2017
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this is from RW’s blog today about the game with the Bruins...this is what I’ve been saying and to me it’s a no brainer at this point to move POJ up with Marino, given the injuries, even if ideally you’d like to give him less minutes and more time to get used to the NHL game...

“John Marino, like Malkin, has been very bad this season. His 42.08 xGF% is the worst on the team among defensemen. It is only a six game sample so I don’t want to throw out the overused “sophomore slump” term. What I will say is that I don’t anticipate his play turning around anytime soon. He is playing the left side with Cody Ceci. Mike Sullivan has not put him in a position to succeed at the moment. Through two games Pierre-Olivier Joseph has looked the part and I think I would rather throw him in the fire with Marino than to keep forcing Marino to play his off side with a bad partner. Let Ruhwedel and Ceci handle the bottom pairing and shelter them. Let’s see what Joseph can do. Why not? It can’t be worse than the Marino-Ceci experiment. I bet Joseph’s skill set could help Malkin more than Ceci and that is the line they will likely play with.”
 
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