OFF DAY THREAD! We give points away for free!

[Scandale du Jour]

Last few posts:

Simon and Pettersson loving wanker.

When the defense goes back to being healthy, I'd like to actually see Dumoulin benched for a few games. You can't be absolute ass from last season to this so far and not get sat.

Pettersson, Letang
POJ, Marino
Matheson, Riikola

You think that's enough?

I think the next 10 1sts and 50% ownership of the Penguins would be good as well.

I don't get the folks who rag on fans for having negative thoughts about things the organization does, and equating it to "lol the average fan is stooopid anyways".

First, this is a message board to discuss those kinds of things. Second, I'd argue that our fanbase has been right in their criticism more than it's been wrong. And third, I'd argue people who blindly defend the club and act like just because JR/Sullivan have jobs in the NHL that means nothing they do is incorrect or stupid are the ones with questionable knowledge of the NHL.

Expensive ageing players with trade restrictions rarely fetch the return their talent should. This is pretty well known. So it should have been implicit that change - meaningful change, not just tampering with the depth - for a roster with plenty of such guys would include those moves. Don't like it? Don't call for change and say the GM should stick the course. Accept the Chicago/Detroit demise.

Continue

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[Randy Butternubs]

Can't wait for ZAR to come back and be the new top line RW.

 

[Pens x]

Can't wait for ZAR to come back and be the new top line RW.

The hockey gods will take care of that as well...ZAR is always hurt.

Swapping EFraud for ZAR would be an upgrade, IMO.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Can't wait for ZAR to come back and be the new top line RW.

From your lips to God's ears

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Zucker-Crosby-ZAR
Malkin-McCann-DOC
Guentzel-Jankowski-Rust
Tanev-Blueger-Kapanen

 

[Peat]

Evgeni Malkin's slow start and the troubling truth: Marshall – The Athletic

While I fully recommend everyone reads this in full, the TLR summary is Malkin is, probably as a result of being snakebit, trying to get the puck on his stick at every opportunity, and as a result is making a lot of defensive gaffes, and is also maybe not meshing with Marino as we could wish.

 

[KIRK]

Evgeni Malkin's slow start and the troubling truth: Marshall – The Athletic

While I fully recommend everyone reads this in full, the TLR summary is Malkin is, probably as a result of being snakebit, trying to get the puck on his stick at every opportunity, and as a result is making a lot of defensive gaffes, and is also maybe not meshing with Marino as we could wish.

I'm not sure why @Jesse would call this an article of 'uncomfortable truths' in his tweet last night.

He basically said that Malkin traditional response to being snakebitten (being desperate to have the puck on his stick and desperate to create offense) is why he's forcing shit with the puck and cheating offensively all over the ice in terms of his defensive responsibility.

When you do these overly risky things and they don't work out, you're automatically way out of position defensively, which I assume is why @Jesse prefaced the article by noting that tape shows Malkin is, for the most part, following his defensive responsibilities and any gaffes in terms of not recognizing an assignment are no more widespread than most at this juncture.

Frankly, the uncomfortable truth that @Jesse advertised in all of this is that this 6 game stretch is worse in terms of the defensive metrics than any 6 game stretch in the last two years (not emphasized is that his offensive production may be its worst for any 6 game stretch of the last two years).

Last tidbit: Malkin's best partners this season have been Pets and Ruh, the safest defensemen. His worst? John Marino, especially in the last two games. Unmentioned is who Marino's partner has been (cc: @Gurglesons).

Anyway, the good news, from my perspective, is that @Jesse's article implies that the tape shows Malkin's issues are not about him being lazy per se or falling off a cliff (and needing to move to wing as my friend @ColePens recently opined ).

I also wonder (and this wasn't a topic of the article) if THIS is the reason for Sullivan's tone on Malkin, that for all of his gifts, Malkin's fatal flaw is when it isn't happening for him offensively, his instinct always has been to force things offensively when the answer always is to be patient, simplify things offensively, and just play it safe defensively and let the offense come when it comes. In a way, this is an argument against Jake playing with him at a time like this (when both he and, until last game, Sid were struggling, because if anything having Jake would encourage Malkin to force things and cheat offensively even more).

When you consider Sullivan's tone and talk of trying to find combinations, it's like he's recognizing 'I just have to find that spark' (this is something Michel Therrien, for all his faults, always understood, although I'll add it was a lot easier trying to do it for a 20 year old Evgeni Malkin).

Anyway, it's a highly insightful article from @Jesse, especially when you compare it to some of the crap that passes for hockey insight from others in the media.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Expensive ageing players with trade restrictions rarely fetch the return their talent should. This is pretty well known. So it should have been implicit that change - meaningful change, not just tampering with the depth - for a roster with plenty of such guys would include those moves. Don't like it? Don't call for change and say the GM should stick the course. Accept the Chicago/Detroit demise.

That's a false choice.

Meaningful change comes with correctly identifying problem areas - failing to do that results in throwing out the baby with the bathwater. An 82 point winger who provided an irreplaceable element on the PP, and a consistent 50 point winger with best net front presence in the league - both of whom very much worth their cap hits to this team - were not problems, they were scapegoats.

The worst defenseman in the league with a 3+ mil cap hit was a problem, one that was deliberately ignored for 2 years for ego's sake. A 5+ mil defenseman who never recovered from a leg injury but was consistently played regardless was a problem. The coach's deferral to Crosby returning from injury after Guentzel-Malkin-Rust was destroying the league without him was a problem. The lack of a quality 3C was a problem.

These were what needed to be addressed. They either weren't, or were addressed after others ended up as collateral damage.

 

[Beauner]

The hockey gods will take care of that as well...ZAR is always hurt.

Swapping EFraud for ZAR would be an upgrade, IMO.

can you stop with this? It's just cringey

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm not sure why @Jesse would call this an article of 'uncomfortable truths' in his tweet last night.

He basically said that Malkin traditional response to being snakebitten (being desperate to have the puck on his stick and desperate to create offense) is why he's forcing shit with the puck and cheating offensively all over the ice in terms of his defensive responsibility.

When you do these overly risky things and they don't work out, you're automatically way out of position defensively, which I assume is why @Jesse prefaced the article by noting that tape shows Malkin is, for the most part, following his defensive responsibilities and any gaffes in terms of not recognizing an assignment are no more widespread than most at this juncture.

Frankly, the uncomfortable truth that @Jesse advertised in all of this is that this 6 game stretch is worse in terms of the defensive metrics than any 6 game stretch in the last two years (not emphasized is that his offensive production may be its worst for any 6 game stretch of the last two years).

Last tidbit: Malkin's best partners this season have been Pets and Ruh, the safest defensemen. His worst? John Marino, especially in the last two games. Unmentioned is who Marino's partner has been (cc: @Gurglesons).

Anyway, the good news, from my perspective, is that @Jesse's article implies that the tape shows Malkin's issues are not about him being lazy per se or falling off a cliff (and needing to move to wing as my friend @ColePens recently opined ).

I also wonder (and this wasn't a topic of the article) if THIS is the reason for Sullivan's tone on Malkin, that for all of his gifts, Malkin's fatal flaw is when it isn't happening for him offensively, his instinct always has been to force things offensively when the answer always is to be patient, simplify things offensively, and just play it safe defensively and let the offense come when it comes. In a way, this is an argument against Jake playing with him at a time like this (when both he and, until last game, Sid were struggling, because if anything having Jake would encourage Malkin to force things and cheat offensively even more).

When you consider Sullivan's tone and talk of trying to find combinations, it's like he's recognizing 'I just have to find that spark' (this is something Michel Therrien, for all his faults, always understood, although I'll add it was a lot easier trying to do it for a 20 year old Evgeni Malkin).

Anyway, it's a highly insightful article from @Jesse, especially when you compare it to some of the crap that passes for hockey insight from others in the media.

I wonder how quickly Malkin's struggles would disappear and Crosby's would materialize if they switched wingers.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I wonder how quickly Malkin's struggles would disappear and Crosby's would materialize if they switched wingers.

Idk if Malkin can't make it work with 2 wingers as good as Kapanen and Zucker, maybe he's just not that good anymore

Like for real, I can buy that Malkin and Zucker don't mesh that well together, but saying "Evgeni Malkin needs to play with certain wingers to be effective" is way more damning on Malkin's ability at this point than anything else.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Idk if Malkin can't make it work with 2 wingers as good as Kapanen and Zucker, maybe he's just not that good anymore

Like for real, I can buy that Malkin and Zucker don't mesh that well together, but saying "Evgeni Malkin needs to play with certain wingers to be effective" is way more damning on Malkin's ability at this point than anything else.

That doesn't answer the question, Empo. What if Crosby needs certain wingers to be effective? Crosby certainly has very strong preferences that the org is intent on satisfying even when everything is working well without Guentzel on his line, as we saw last year.

Maybe this is less about Malkin and more about not having the right set of wingers for this team. Or about mistakenly prioritizing Crosby's preference over team success.

 

[KIRK]

Idk if Malkin can't make it work with 2 wingers as good as Kapanen and Zucker, maybe he's just not that good anymore

Like for real, I can buy that Malkin and Zucker don't mesh that well together, but saying "Evgeni Malkin needs to play with certain wingers to be effective" is way more damning on Malkin's ability at this point than anything else.

If @Jesse's article suggested anything, it's that Malkin's 'ability' isn't the issue here.

What it suggests, if anything, is when you've got Malkin in a funk (where the mind is telling him keep it simple and the instinct from when he was a kid is to just 'try harder', i.e., force things, offensively) there are certain type of linemates that may be good and others that may not.

I mean, Malkin's best defensive partners this year are Pets and Ruh? Kind of supports the idea that it's not about 'ability' per se with linemates, yes?

 

[Empoleon8771]

That doesn't answer the question, Empo. What if Crosby needs certain wingers to be effective? Crosby certainly has very strong preferences that the org is intent on satisfying even when everything is working well without Guentzel on his line, as we saw last year.

Maybe this is less about Malkin and more about not having the right set of wingers for this team.

Then that is very damning on Crosby's abilities as well.

Again, if Malkin can't make it work with 2 top-6 wingers in Zucker and Kapanen because they don't "mesh with him", that is a way harsher criticism of Malkin than a criticism of anything else. I get not meshing with players, but Malkin's play this year has been way beyond just "not meshing with players". If Malkin legitimately can't yield top-6 results with top-6 wingers who don't mesh well with him, he's not nearly the same Malkin as he once was.

Just because this site wants to blame everyone but Crosby and Malkin for their play doesn't mean that they're right

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If @Jesse's article suggested anything, it's that Malkin's 'ability' isn't the issue here.

What it suggests, if anything, is when you've got Malkin in a funk (where the mind is telling him keep it simple and the instinct from when he was a kid is to just 'try harder', i.e., force things, offensively) there are certain type of linemates that may be good and others that may not.

I mean, Malkin's best defensive partners this year are Pets and Ruh? Kind of supports the idea that it's not about 'ability' per se with linemates, yes?

I imagine Marino being forced to play on his wrong side has a fair bit to do with that as well.

 

[KIRK]

I wonder how quickly Malkin's struggles would disappear and Crosby's would materialize if they switched wingers.

I think-- and I'd love to hear @Jesse's thoughts on this-- the ideal wingers to play with Malkin when he's in a funk and the ideal wingers when he's in god mode may not necessarily be the same player.

We talked about flipping Jake and Zucker because Jake-Malkin-Rust killed it last year. BUT, that was with Malkin in god mode. How about now? One could argue that if anything reuniting Jake-Malkin-Rust would've fed a struggling Malkin's instinct to force things even more offensively.

Honestly, right now, leave Jake-Rust with Sid. Sid seems to have snapped out of it, although let's see if that holds against a real hockey team. BUT, don't be afraid to play mix and match with the 2nd and 3rd line wingers. TB has played well with all of them, so there's no discernible loss to L3 if you experiment with combinations to find the right mix for Malkin.

I have issues with Sullivan, but taken in the context of @Jesse's article, Sullivan's talk of finding the right combination for Malkin makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Then that is very damning on Crosby's abilities as well.

Again, if Malkin can't make it work with 2 top-6 wingers in Zucker and Kapanen because they don't "mesh with him", that is a way harsher criticism of Malkin than a criticism of anything else. I get not meshing with players, but Malkin's play this year has been way beyond just "not meshing with players". If Malkin legitimately can't yield top-6 results with top-6 wingers who don't mesh well with him, he's not nearly the same Malkin as he once was.

Just because this site wants to blame everyone but Crosby and Malkin for their play doesn't mean that they're right

No, it's not damning of anyone's ability. It merely suggests that even with Crosby, there's a human instinct to cheat offensively to produce as is expected when the points aren't coming 5 on 5. It became less pronounced than Malkin's, I'd think, because the points for Sid were coming in other places.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Then that is very damning on Crosby's abilities as well.

Again, if Malkin can't make it work with 2 top-6 wingers in Zucker and Kapanen because they don't "mesh with him", that is a way harsher criticism of Malkin than a criticism of anything else. I get not meshing with players, but Malkin's play this year has been way beyond just "not meshing with players". If Malkin legitimately can't yield top-6 results with top-6 wingers who don't mesh well with him, he's not nearly the same Malkin as he once was.

Just because this site wants to blame everyone but Crosby and Malkin for their play doesn't mean that they're right

If the alternatives are that either Malkin and Crosby aren't very good, or the roster construction is flawed and the coach makes stupid line-up choices, that's an easy choice.

As last game showed with stunning clarity, even one poor fit can make or break a line, and it can very much be entirely the coach's fault.

 

[Empoleon8771]

No, it's not damning of anyone's ability.

Nah, it really is.

I just really don't understand how we've gone from watching Crosby and Malkin put up a ton of points with obviously not top-6 wingers for their entire careers to now saying "Malkin can't produce with top-6 wingers because his top-6 wingers don't mesh with him" or "Crosby can't produce because he has ERod on his line". You guys can rationalize that however you want, but I read that as way more damning on Crosby and Malkin than how you view it damning on Sullivan for not doing what you want.

If the alternatives are that either Malkin and Crosby aren't very good, or the roster construction is flawed and the coach makes stupid line-up choices, that's an easy choice.

As last game showed with stunning clarity, even one poor fit can make or break a line, and it can very much be entirely the coach's fault.

Or there is more nuance than that, where Crosby and Malkin can both be playing bad while Sullivan is making bad lineup decisions.

Not everything has to be so black and white you know. I get that this site wants to blame Sullivan for literally anything it can grasp on, but things aren't so simple here.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

We talked about flipping Jake and Zucker because Jake-Malkin-Rust killed it last year. BUT, that was with Malkin in god mode. How about now? One could argue that if anything reuniting Jake-Malkin-Rust would've fed a struggling Malkin's instinct to force things even more offensively.

Honestly, right now, leave Jake-Rust with Sid. Sid seems to have snapped out of it, although let's see if that holds against a real hockey team. BUT, don't be afraid to play mix and match with the 2nd and 3rd line wingers. TB has played well with all of them, so there's no discernible loss to L3 if you experiment with combinations to find the right mix for Malkin.

It's worth finding out. Unfortunately, it's one change the coach has proven incapable of making.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Or there is more nuance than that, where Crosby and Malkin can both be playing bad while Sullivan is making bad lineup decisions.

Not everything has to be so black and white you know.

They can be. But sometimes it can be that black and white, and the obvious conclusion that Crosby and Malkin are much better centers than Sullivan is a coach or JR is a GM in 2020 is worth considering.

 

[Empoleon8771]

They can be. But sometimes it can be that black and white, and the obvious conclusion that Crosby and Malkin are much better centers than Sullivan is a coach or JR is a GM in 2020 is worth considering.

Just because fans here want to believe it's black and white because it fits their preconceived agenda doesn't mean it's actually black and white.

It is painfully obvious to see the bias on this site. It's actually gotten so bad at this point that it honestly makes me want to start posting here less. It's genuinely not enjoyable to read these threads sometimes when it seems like some Penguins fans are actively rooting against the Penguins because they have an axe to grind with Sullivan and JR.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Just because fans here want to believe it's black and white because it fits their preconceived agenda doesn't mean it's actually black and white.

It is painfully obvious to see the bias on this site.

Last game was about as black and white as possible. It wasn't Crosby at all, it was having a doofus on his RW.

 

[KIRK]

Nah, it really is.

I just really don't understand how we've gone from watching Crosby and Malkin put up a ton of points with obviously not top-6 wingers for their entire careers to now saying "Malkin can't produce with top-6 wingers because his top-6 wingers don't mesh with him" or "Crosby can't produce because he has ERod on his line". You guys can rationalize that however you want, but I read that as way more damning on Crosby and Malkin than how you view it damning on Sullivan for not doing what you want.



Or there is more nuance than that, where Crosby and Malkin can both be playing bad while Sullivan is making bad lineup decisions.

Not everything has to be so black and white you know. I get that this site wants to blame Sullivan for literally anything it can grasp on, but things aren't so simple here.

What in god's name are you babbling about? 'Do what I want'. I'm discussing @Jesse's article and not what I want (and if anything noting that it provides a rationale for Sullivan's tone and actions with Malkin). Holy hell . . .

 

[Empoleon8771]

Last game was about as black and white as possible. It wasn't Crosby at all, it was having a doofus on his RW.

What in god's name are you babbling about? 'Do what I want'. I'm discussing @Jesse's article and not what I want (and if anything noting that it provides a rationale for Sullivan's tone and actions with Malkin). Holy hell . . .

You guys aren't even worth discussing with on this topic anymore because you're so biased in it, so I'm not even going to bother wasting my time any further.

Like I said above, this website has genuinely become shitty because it really seems like some of you guys actively root against the Penguins because you have problems with Sullivan and Rutherford. Maybe I just have higher expectations for 2 of the former best players in hockey, but your excuses of "it's all Sullivan's fault because he's not putting together the exact lines I want" just read like hollow apologist justifications to me.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

You guys aren't even worth discussing with on this topic anymore because you're so biased in it, so I'm not even going to bother wasting my time any further.

Like I said above, this website has genuinely become shitty because it really seems like some of you guys actively root against the Penguins because you have problems with Sullivan and Rutherford.

K