Sportsnet: Of Course the Leafs are better with Kessel

[silentbob37*]

But I thought Phaneuf was a no. 1 D, Kadri was an up and coming no. 1 C, Bernier was a top 10 goalie, JVR a 30 goal scorer, Rielly and Gardiner are the cornerstones on the back end, Winnik,Santorelli,Polak,Robidas the character leadership etc. etc.
What more help do you need? And we're are you finding it?

The sad thing, some fans have been saying - Phaneuf was a no. 1 D, Kadri was an up and coming no. 1 C, Bernier was a top 10 goalie, JVR a 30 goal scorer, Rielly and Gardiner are the cornerstones on the back end, Winnik,Santorelli,Polak,Robidas the character leadership - For years but with different people. Remember when:

Phaneuf was a no. 1 D, Connolly was a 1C, Reimer was a top 10 goalie, Lupul a 30 goal scorer, Schenn and Gardiner are the cornerstones on the back end, Lupul, Grabovski, Kulemin, Liles and Brown the character leadership.......

 

[Stats01]

But I thought Phaneuf was a no. 1 D, Kadri was an up and coming no. 1 C, Bernier was a top 10 goalie, JVR a 30 goal scorer, Rielly and Gardiner are the cornerstones on the back end, Winnik,Santorelli,Polak,Robidas the character leadership etc. etc.
What more help do you need? And we're are you finding it?

What's the point of even trying to discuss this with him, he's against the whole idea of rebuilding when I read his posts. He's another typical fellow Leaf fan with blinders on who are in such denial that even sneaking into the playoffs is an achievement...I want to ask him the same question, "How do the Leafs help Kessel? Do they blow their cap again and sign more free agents, do we do what we usually do and trade more picks and prospects?

To me, to you and to many others it's as clear as day, that we need to rebuild, NOT re-tool, NOT rebuild on the fly..whatever quick fix term you want to use. This franchise needs to do what other franchises have accepted in the past and that is to actually get better and have real change and implement new structure, this team needs to be blown to pieces. Trade Dion, trade Kessel, trade Lupul trade our UFA's (Franson, Santorelli) trade Winnik, try and trade Robidas, trade Reimer. These guys may not be worth a lot. But when you add up a couple of 2nd's a couple of 3rds, a couple of 1st's (Kessel, Dion trades+ prospects) it's a start to a new beginning.

Maybe I'm assuming a lot here..but I feel that a lot of us on here look at 2nd rounders and 3rd rounders as garbage, when in reality there are a ton of 2nd rounders/3rd rounders playing big roles on contending teams. This franchise has been an utter failure when it comes to the draft, specifically trading away our 2nd rounders and 3rd rounders for mediocre crap instead of drafting and developing.

How nice would it be for once! the Leafs go into a draft with a couple of 1sts, a couple of 2nd's, a couple of 3rds and actually use the picks! What a thought.

 

[CHRoNiCWiLL]

What's the point of even trying to discuss this with him, he's against the whole idea of rebuilding when I read his posts. He's another typical fellow Leaf fan with blinders on who are in such denial that even sneaking into the playoffs is an achievement...I want to ask him the same question, "How do the Leafs help Kessel? Do they blow their cap again and sign more free agents, do we do what we usually do and trade more picks and prospects?

To me, to you and to many others it's as clear as day, that we need to rebuild, NOT re-tool, NOT rebuild on the fly..whatever quick fix term you want to use. This franchise needs to do what other franchises have accepted in the past and that is to actually get better and have real change and implement new structure, this team needs to be blown to pieces. Trade Dion, trade Kessel, trade Lupul trade our UFA's (Franson, Santorelli) trade Winnik, try and trade Robidas, trade Reimer. These guys may not be worth a lot. But when you add up a couple of 2nd's a couple of 3rds, a couple of 1st's (Kessel, Dion trades+ prospects) it's a start to a new beginning.

Maybe I'm assuming a lot here..but I feel that a lot of us on here look at 2nd rounders and 3rd rounders as garbage, when in reality there are a ton of 2nd rounders/3rd rounders playing big roles on contending teams. This franchise has been an utter failure when it comes to the draft, specifically trading away our 2nd rounders and 3rd rounders for mediocre crap instead of drafting and developing.

He's obviously a Kessel fan and not a Leafs fan

 

[Gary Nylund]

What's the point of even trying to discuss this with him, he's against the whole idea of rebuilding when I read his posts. He's another typical fellow Leaf fan with blinders on who are in such denial that even sneaking into the playoffs is an achievement...I want to ask him the same question, "How do the Leafs help Kessel? Do they blow their cap again and sign more free agents, do we do what we usually do and trade more picks and prospects?

To me, to you and to many others it's as clear as day, that we need to rebuild, NOT re-tool, NOT rebuild on the fly..whatever quick fix term you want to use. This franchise needs to do what other franchises have accepted in the past and that is to actually get better and have real change and implement new structure, this team needs to be blown to pieces. Trade Dion, trade Kessel, trade Lupul trade our UFA's (Franson, Santorelli) trade Winnik, try and trade Robidas, trade Reimer. These guys may not be worth a lot. But when you add up a couple of 2nd's a couple of 3rds, a couple of 1st's (Kessel, Dion trades+ prospects) it's a start to a new beginning.

Maybe I'm assuming a lot here..but I feel that a lot of us on here look at 2nd rounders and 3rd rounders as garbage, when in reality there are a ton of 2nd rounders/3rd rounders playing big roles on contending teams. This franchise has been an utter failure when it comes to the draft, specifically trading away our 2nd rounders and 3rd rounders for mediocre crap instead of drafting and developing.

How nice would it be for once! the Leafs go into a draft with a couple of 1sts, a couple of 2nd's, a couple of 3rds and actually use the picks! What a thought.

I couldn't agree more. Look at Boston with Krejci, Lucik, Chara, Thomas and Bergeron - all key players not drafted in the first round. When was the last time we got even one player as good as any of those 5 beyond the 1st round? Trading 3 draft picks for Bolland is the perfect example of how this team rolls.

We have to be willing to take a step back in the short term in order to be better down the line. It doesn't have to be as dramatic as "blowing it all up" though.

 

[Stats01]

I couldn't agree more. Look at Boston with Krejci, Lucik, Chara, Thomas and Bergeron - all key players not drafted in the first round. When was the last time we got even one player as good as any of those 5 beyond the 1st round? Trading 3 draft picks for Bolland is the perfect example of how this team rolls.

We have to be willing to take a step back in the short term in order to be better down the line. It doesn't have to be as dramatic as "blowing it all up" though.

No it doesn't I'm just an advocate of getting rid of this whole team. I'd keep Rielly, Kadri, Nylander and the rest of our prospects and picks but I mean other than that this just my view but I think everyone should be traded as a complete tear down. This roster deserves to see how embarrassing they've been at times and moving a bunch of these guys like Kessel at their premium value in their prime is a perfect start. Kessel isn't getting any better. He's in his prime right now. Trade him, and trade our fake tough captain too. Plays big minutes and is valuable as a "support player" just like Kessel would be. Neither of these guys should be in the middle of a core group. They're elite support players.

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

Try getting Kessel some REAL line mates first. Think Pavelski scores 30-40 without Thornton/Marleau? Plzzzzzz

 

[silentbob37*]

Try getting Kessel some REAL line mates first. Think Pavelski scores 30-40 without Thornton/Marleau? Plzzzzzz

EVERYONE agrees with you

The problem is the Leafs simply will not be able to add players the caliber of Toews, Kopitar, Malkin, Stamkos, Tavares, Weber, Doughty through trades and free agent signings.

So where does that leave them?

 

[Lauro]

Trade him.

 

[Trapper]

Try getting Kessel some REAL line mates first. Think Pavelski scores 30-40 without Thornton/Marleau? Plzzzzzz

I can't believe that in 6 years, high paid GMs and executives didn't think of this.
This is just so crazy it might work.

 

[Kurisu]

I couldn't agree more. Look at Boston with Krejci, Lucik, Chara, Thomas and Bergeron - all key players not drafted in the first round. When was the last time we got even one player as good as any of those 5 beyond the 1st round? Trading 3 draft picks for Bolland is the perfect example of how this team rolls.

We have to be willing to take a step back in the short term in order to be better down the line. It doesn't have to be as dramatic as "blowing it all up" though.

Considering the leafs inepitude with drafting, if we blow things up and trade everybody, it's likely we're not going to end up with anything at the end.

 

[topched]

Considering the leafs inepitude with drafting, if we blow things up and trade everybody, it's likely we're not going to end up with anything at the end.

In fairness though, by blowing it up you're getting a high draft pick that should significantly reduce your ability to miss on a draft pick.

We've never picked in the top 3 for the last decade, where there has been a nearly unmissable record as far as NHL calibre players go in this draft spots

Of course we're gonna struggle at the draft when were picking in the 20s more often than not

 

[Stephen]

Try getting Kessel some REAL line mates first. Think Pavelski scores 30-40 without Thornton/Marleau? Plzzzzzz

Okay, Joe Thornton and Patrick Marleau have just hit the market. What are you giving up? Nylander, Rielly and 2 firsts?

Trading for stars isn't realistic, because the price to get them usually equals what you get back, so there is no net gain.

And **** if I'm going to waste assets to surround Phil with. We should be cashing in Phil so we can support Rielly and Nylander.

 

[hotpaws]

I can't believe that in 6 years, high paid GMs and executives didn't think of this.
This is just so crazy it might work.

Yup , all we needed to do is surround Kessel with Malkin-Teows-Perry-Weber and Doughty and have Dion lead us to a cup . It sounds so simple and yet our high paid executives couldn't figure it out .

Lucky T-Biggie has figured out this recipe for success , hopefully he sends Nonis and Shanny an e-mail outlining this simple plan .

 

[hotpaws]

Considering the leafs inepitude with drafting, if we blow things up and trade everybody, it's likely we're not going to end up with anything at the end.

even if this was true it wouldn't make us much worse than we are right now so what's the harm in trying ?

 

[Stephen]

Yup , all we needed to do is surround Kessel with Malkin-Teows-Perry-Weber and Doughty and have Dion lead us to a cup . It sounds so simple and yet our high paid executives couldn't figure it out .

Lucky T-Biggie has figured out this recipe for success , hopefully he sends Nonis and Shanny an e-mail outlining this simple plan .

Yeah, and when the solution to getting Phil going is to build an uber team of players who are superior around him, he's by definition no longer the core but just a peripheral guy he's always been. And if that's the case, why keep him with that price tag?

 

[Deebo]

I don't think they need to trade Kessel to get a high draft pick.

 

[silentbob37*]

Okay, Joe Thornton and Patrick Marleau have just hit the market. What are you giving up? Nylander, Rielly and 2 firsts?

Trading for stars isn't realistic, because the price to get them usually equals what you get back, so there is no net gain.

And **** if I'm going to waste assets to surround Phil with. We should be cashing in Phil so we can support Rielly and Nylander.

Adam Wylde on the Dangle podcast today basically said they should look at trading JVR, Lupul, Franson, Bozak and/or Phaneuf for guys 19-22 years old (on Riellys "time table", as he put it) and the plan should be to build around Rielly, Nylander and those young players they get via trade. BUT they should keep Kessel who will only be 33 when those guys will be in their mid 20's.

The obvious problem with this plan is, getting other teams to give up their best prospects for the Leafs core players........ I agree with him that they hsould re-focus on players on Riellys and Nylanders "time table", but to get the real high potential guys, they'll most likely have to draft them themselves.

I don't get why some fans who realize this core isn't good enough just can't.......bring themselves to realize that Kessel needs to go. Its like when you sell off a collection. You know you need the space and/or money but you just have to keep your favourite piece or two.

 

[topched]

Yeah, and when the solution to getting Phil going is to build an uber team of players who are superior around him, he's by definition no longer the core but just a peripheral guy he's always been. And if that's the case, why keep him with that price tag?

Phil is a core guy, he's a top 10 pt producer, definitely a scorer. But he's literally the only one as of right now. (With potential for Rielly etc to join him)

But I'm not sure even Sidney Crosby could lead this team to the playoffs with this "core" minus Kessel around him.

The truth of the matter is you need multiple high calibre players to succeed in this league, and we have only 1. The only way to get more is to draft high and develop them. The question shouldn't be whether or not PK is a core guy, it's whether or not he will still be a core guy when you've drafted and developed your other core guys... Which could be 4-5 years away.

If the answer is no, it's sell time

 

[Deebo]

The sad thing, some fans have been saying - Phaneuf was a no. 1 D, Kadri was an up and coming no. 1 C, Bernier was a top 10 goalie, JVR a 30 goal scorer, Rielly and Gardiner are the cornerstones on the back end, Winnik,Santorelli,Polak,Robidas the character leadership - For years but with different people. Remember when:

Phaneuf was a no. 1 D, Connolly was a 1C, Reimer was a top 10 goalie, Lupul a 30 goal scorer, Schenn and Gardiner are the cornerstones on the back end, Lupul, Grabovski, Kulemin, Liles and Brown the character leadership.......

I doubt a significant amount of people were saying Connolly was a first line centre and Reimer a top 10 goalie.

 

[Kurisu]

even if this was true it wouldn't make us much worse than we are right now so what's the harm in trying ?

Just the concept people get that we shouldn't let our UFAs go for nothing. But ultimately we may trade everybody, get some picks and then they could turn out busting and we get nothing out of it. We might get a high pick out of it, but I doubt we've taken any steps forward with that.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

This guy takes way too much abuse and is an extremely underrated player.

Yes he's flawed and yes he's quit on plays from time to time but from 2011 onward he's the 5th highest scorer in the league. That's pretty freaking incredible when you consider the teams and linemates he's played with.

He's not a "leader type" who's savvy with the media and he's out of place where he is. He's just not the guy who is well suited to being a focal point on his team. Put him in a different situation though and we'd hear a lot more about how good a player this is.

I think he's very similar to Patrick Kane. Great winger, offensively focused... if you flipped them around Kane would be getting the criticism and Kessle would get the glory.

If the Leafs are going to trade Kessle it should only be for rebuilding purposes. Just an outsider's perspective.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

This guy takes way too much abuse and is an extremely underrated player.

Yes he's flawed and yes he's quit on plays from time to time but from 2011 onward he's the 5th highest scorer in the league. That's pretty freaking incredible when you consider the teams and linemates he's played with.

He's not a "leader type" who's savvy with the media and he's out of place where he is. He's just not the guy who is well suited to being a focal point on his team. Put him in a different situation though and we'd hear a lot more about how good a player this is.

I think he's very similar to Patrick Kane. Great winger, offensively focused... if you flipped them around Kane would be getting the criticism and Kessle would get the glory.

If the Leafs are going to trade Kessle it should only be for rebuilding purposes. Just an outsider's perspective.

If you are going to spew rhetoric at least you can spell the guy's name right.

 

[silentbob37*]

I doubt a significant amount of people were saying Connolly was a first line centre and Reimer a top 10 goalie.

You'd think so but......

 

[Stephen]

Adam Wylde on the Dangle podcast today basically said they should look at trading JVR, Lupul, Franson, Bozak and/or Phaneuf for guys 19-22 years old (on Riellys "time table", as he put it) and the plan should be to build around Rielly, Nylander and those young players they get via trade. BUT they should keep Kessel who will only be 33 when those guys will be in their mid 20's.

The obvious problem with this plan is, getting other teams to give up their best prospects for the Leafs core players........ I agree with him that they hsould re-focus on players on Riellys and Nylanders "time table", but to get the real high potential guys, they'll most likely have to draft them themselves.

I don't get why some fans who realize this core isn't good enough just can't.......bring themselves to realize that Kessel needs to go. Its like when you sell off a collection. You know you need the space and/or money but you just have to keep your favourite piece or two.

Exactly.

Kessel would also bring back a massive return, so he would be moved as well.

 

[Stephen]

Phil is a core guy, he's a top 10 pt producer, definitely a scorer.

Core guy on a losing team who is closer to 30 than 25 on a big ticket. Therefore, he is not a core guy.