Sportsnet: Of Course the Leafs are better with Kessel

[Gary Nylund]

Phil Kessel is more like the James Harden of the NHL than the Rudy Gay of it.

That's a pretty good comparison IMO.

 

[silentbob37*]

Why do anti-tankers bring up Edmonton, the MOST EXTREME example of what could go wrong

Thats also the thing about rebuilding.....it often looks bad until it doesn't.

They just added Draisaitl who looks like a good young player and is what the Oilers needed as opposed to another highly skilled, 1 way winger. They will most likely be able to add either McDavid or Eichel at this years draft, and Nurse looks like a pretty good prospect right now. In 1-2-3 years if they have McDavid/Eichel as their #1 center, Draisaitl as their #2 and Nurse on the blue line.......pretty good looking group.

Go take a look at who the Hawks had in the system after the 2005 draft - Ruutu, Keith, Seabrook, Barker, Skille, Bolland, Babchuk, Bickell, Bertram......not a group that looks like it can win cup huh? Look at the same team after the 2007 draft.......

 

[pspot]

Again has cap flexibility. And movable assets

So things could change very quickly for them

 

[glue]

Thats also the thing about rebuilding.....it often looks bad until it doesn't.

They just added Draisaitl who looks like a good young player and is what the Oilers needed as opposed to another highly skilled, 1 way winger. They will most likely be able to add either McDavid or Eichel at this years draft, and Nurse looks like a pretty good prospect right now. In 1-2-3 years if they have McDavid/Eichel as their #1 center, Draisaitl as their #2 and Nurse on the blue line.......pretty good looking group.

Go take a look at who the Hawks had in the system after the 2005 draft - Ruutu, Keith, Seabrook, Barker, Skille, Bolland, Babchuk, Bickell, Bertram......not a group that looks like it can win cup huh? Look at the same team after the 2007 draft.......

Yup..well put, and you forgot RNH...now thats center depth

In fact it likely makes RNH expendable for a solid goalie and they also hire a competant coach who can put together a solid defensive system and all of a sudden the Oilers are not so bad eh

 

[Trapper]

Yup..well put, and you forgot RNH...now thats center depth

In fact it likely makes RNH expendable for a solid goalie and they also hire a competant coach who can put together a solid defensive system and all of a sudden the Oilers are not so bad eh

I'm not sure why people feel better putting down the Oil. Maybe that is why.
When we got Kessel in 09 he was 22, finished the year with 60+ points and the team finished 2nd last in the NHL.
Hall is currently 22 on the same projection. Maybe in 5 years when Hall is 27 he will have achieved the same amount of team success as the Leafs.

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

The guy scores 35-40 goals PER SEASON, and has done so for the past 4 or 5 seasons. You don't need to let Kessel go, you need to bring in players to support him.

Getting rid of Kessel is NOT going to solve the Leaf's problems...

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

Consistent 35-40 goal scorers are hard to come by and with Kessel the Leafs have one of them. He is never going to be the "complete" player but he is a natural goal scorer and you don't trade them once you have them. It would be a big mistake to trade a guy like that.

 

[ULF_55]

Consistent 35-40 goal scorers are hard to come by and with Kessel the Leafs have one of them. He is never going to be the "complete" player but he is a natural goal scorer and you don't trade them once you have them. It would be a big mistake to trade a guy like that.

Kings didn't have a 30 goal scorer either Cup season.

Hawks didn't have anyone who scored over 30 in the past 2 Cup seasons.

Bruins didn't have anyone who scored over 30 goals in the last Cup season.

 

[bobbyflex]

softest player in the NHL, AINEC. I've seen women and kids that play with more aggression. Can Ashton loan him his inhaler please?

 

[Deebo]

Go take a look at who the Hawks had in the system after the 2005 draft - Ruutu, Keith, Seabrook, Barker, Skille, Bolland, Babchuk, Bickell, Bertram......not a group that looks like it can win cup huh? Look at the same team after the 2007 draft.......

Then they had Pittsburgh take Jordan Staal instead of Toews in 2006 and won the lottery from 5th last in 2007, which had an 8.1% chance of happening, and took Kane.

Luck is a big part of rebuilding too, they easily could have ended up with Jordan Staal and Hickey/Alzner/Gagner rather than Toews and Kane.

 

[Trapper]

Consistent 35-40 goal scorers are hard to come by and with Kessel the Leafs have one of them. He is never going to be the "complete" player but he is a natural goal scorer and you don't trade them once you have them. It would be a big mistake to trade a guy like that.

Ducks traded 4 time 30 goal scorer Bobby Ryan.
Bruins moved out Seguin. Gaborik has been traded how many times? Heatly was a 50 goal scorer. St. Louis,Nash.
The team is more important than Kessel. If you can find a way to win with him, get the parts. If you continue to lose with the same personnel, no one in untouchable.
Florida has passed us in the standings. A team that drafted 1st overall and 2nd overall in the last 2 years.
We are currently only better than Ottawa (5 points up, they have 2 games in hand) and Buffalo in the Atlantic.
What exactly are people holding on to?
PS: Until Kessel scores 40 goals, he's not a 40 goal scorer.
With the amount of cheating and 100 foot game played by this team, you'd think he'd score at least as many as Ovi.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Ducks traded 4 time 30 goal scorer Bobby Ryan.
Bruins moved out Seguin. Gaborik has been traded how many times? Heatly was a 50 goal scorer. St. Louis,Nash.
The team is more important than Kessel. If you can find a way to win with him, get the parts. If you continue to lose with the same personnel, no one in untouchable.
Florida has passed us in the standings. A team that drafted 1st overall and 2nd overall in the last 2 years.
We are currently only better than Ottawa (5 points up, they have 2 games in hand) and Buffalo in the Atlantic.
What exactly are people holding on to?
PS: Until Kessel scores 40 goals, he's not a 40 goal scorer.
With the amount of cheating and 100 foot game played by this team, you'd think he'd score at least as many as Ovi.

Pretty much everyone considers that trade to be absolutely horrible for the Bruins.

Edmonton traded Gretzky too and won the cup two years later, so what? It almost sounds like some of you are saying that if a guy scores a ton, it's time to trade him. I'm not really seeing any logic here.

 

[Trapper]

Pretty much everyone considers that trade to be absolutely horrible for the Bruins.

Edmonton traded Gretzky too and won the cup two years later, so what? It almost sounds like some of you are saying that if a guy scores a ton, it's time to trade him. I'm not really seeing any logic here.

That's not what we're saying.
We are saying the team is bigger than an individual.
Lots of players should go before Kessel (that might not be possible) but you can't continue to be a bad team and finally start rebuilding with a 30 year old player. If we don't get the help or the core, that's where we're heading.

 

[Stats01]

The guy scores 35-40 goals PER SEASON, and has done so for the past 4 or 5 seasons. You don't need to let Kessel go, you need to bring in players to support him.

Getting rid of Kessel is NOT going to solve the Leaf's problems...

Yes it will solve the Leafs. It will give us a fresh start, where our priority is patience, drafting and developing, doing things the right way. Only in Toronto are things rushed and people are so impatient for a winner. Read this article please, it's a good one. I hope everyone does.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/why-shanahan-must-blow-up-the-maple-leafs/


"That will take time. It could be achieved partly through clever trades, but for the most part it will require those kinds of athletes to be drafted and developed the way Doughty, Quick, Brown and Kopitar were by the L.A. Kings.

Keeping the current core will, really, just make it impossible to do that by keeping the Leafs in the mushy middle of the NHL standings. Instead of getting John Tavares, they’ll draft Nazem Kadri. Instead of Nathan MacKinnon, they’ll get Frederik Gauthier.

All of this, of course, means that 6 1/2 years after Burke came to Toronto, the Leafs need to again tear down what has been built and start again.

That will take someone to admit these have been 6 1/2 wasted years, 6 1/2 years filled with expensive decisions that didn’t work out. That’s not an easy thing for any sports organization to admit.

 

[Stats01]

People who want to keep Kessel around. This guy is going to be 28 next year...at some point we're either going to have magically get a good core around him or rebuild. You can't have a 30+ year old wasting away on this roster. Doing nothing/trying to make this core good when it really isn't is just fallacy.

Shanahan has to blow it up, it's the only true way to get a new direction going. If we have to really suck for a few years and get high picks then let's do it. Every other team does it. The Leafs are infamous for finishing in the middle of the pack (the worst possible spot)

 

[ULF_55]

People who want to keep Kessel around. This guy is going to be 28 next year...at some point we're either going to have magically get a good core around him or rebuild. You can't have a 30+ year old wasting away on this roster. Doing nothing/trying to make this core good when it really isn't is just fallacy.

Shanahan has to blow it up, it's the only true way to get a new direction going. If we have to really suck for a few years and get high picks then let's do it. Every other team does it. The Leafs are infamous for finishing in the middle of the pack (the worst possible spot)

He's the Leafs' Gaborik, but without Lemaire coaching.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That's not what we're saying.
We are saying the team is bigger than an individual.
Lots of players should go before Kessel (that might not be possible) but you can't continue to be a bad team and finally start rebuilding with a 30 year old player. If we don't get the help or the core, that's where we're heading.

I don't think there anybody who is putting Kessel ahead of the team. I'm fine with trading him if it makes sense as part of a bigger overall plan and I agree, there's a number of players that should go first and until that happens I don't think Kessel should be traded. What's the point of trading him (he won't be 30 for another few years) when we still have Bozak, Lupul, Franson and Phaneuf?

Kypreos said he would trade Kessel for Max Domi. That would be funny if it wasn't just so dumb.

 

[Trapper]

He's the Leafs' Gaborik, but without Lemaire coaching.

Should a team with a 27 (next year 28) year old Kessel be consistently missing the playoffs?
400 games as a Leaf, 7 playoff games.
What are people's expectations?
If you set your expectations low, you usually meet your goal.

 

[Trapper]

I don't think there anybody who is putting Kessel ahead of the team. I'm fine with trading him if it makes sense as part of a bigger overall plan and I agree, there's a number of players that should go first and until that happens I don't think Kessel should be traded. What's the point of trading him (he won't be 30 for another few years) when we still have Bozak, Lupul, Franson and Phaneuf?

Kypreos said he would trade Kessel for Max Domi. That would be funny if it wasn't just so dumb.

Well that is dumb.
If we are trading Kessel, we want a player in return who can grow into that no. 1 C or D.
It has to make sense for us now. When Kessel is 33 and if we are still the same, then yes the return is different.
Columbus traded Nash for 2 centers, a D and a draft pick. Chose another center.

 

[silentbob37*]

The guy scores 35-40 goals PER SEASON, and has done so for the past 4 or 5 seasons. You don't need to let Kessel go, you need to bring in players to support him.

Getting rid of Kessel is NOT going to solve the Leaf's problems...

First he has never scored more then 37 goals,a nd is on pace for 35 right now. He does NOT score 38+ goals per season.

How do the Leafs bring multiple top 10 talents at multiple positions while keeping Kessel?

The Leafs need to rebuild, and getting rid of Kessel is part of rebuilding.

 

[silentbob37*]

Consistent 35-40 goal scorers are hard to come by and with Kessel the Leafs have one of them. He is never going to be the "complete" player but he is a natural goal scorer and you don't trade them once you have them. It would be a big mistake to trade a guy like that.

35-37 goal scorers.

And they may be, but you also don't NEED a 35-37 goal scoring player to win a cup.

 

[CHRoNiCWiLL]

The guy scores 35-40 goals PER SEASON, and has done so for the past 4 or 5 seasons. You don't need to let Kessel go, you need to bring in players to support him.

Getting rid of Kessel is NOT going to solve the Leaf's problems...

How do you bring in people to support him? Sign another David Clarkson via UFA? Draft a mid first rounder and hope to god in 4-5 years they will be the next Patrice Bergeron while Kessel is now old and on the decline? Trade our picks/prospects for another team's old washed up players?
Currently with Kessel, this team will forever stay in PERPETUAL MEDIOCRITY. Not good enough every year, not bad enough to have a high chance at game breaking talent.

Please come up with a plan on how to surround Kessel with players that Nonis/Burke hasn't already been trying to do since we aquired him.

Our window of opportunity is not now, trade Kessel and hope to be competing with a core of homegrown players developed through our new defensive systems in 3-4 years.

 

[Trapper]

The guy scores 35-40 goals PER SEASON, and has done so for the past 4 or 5 seasons. You don't need to let Kessel go, you need to bring in players to support him.

Getting rid of Kessel is NOT going to solve the Leaf's problems...

But I thought Phaneuf was a no. 1 D, Kadri was an up and coming no. 1 C, Bernier was a top 10 goalie, JVR a 30 goal scorer, Rielly and Gardiner are the cornerstones on the back end, Winnik,Santorelli,Polak,Robidas the character leadership etc. etc.
What more help do you need? And we're are you finding it?

 

[pspot]

the point is they'll never be good enough
realize it now or in 2 or 3 years

 

[Gary Nylund]

How do you bring in people to support him? Sign another David Clarkson via UFA? Draft a mid first rounder and hope to god in 4-5 years they will be the next Patrice Bergeron while Kessel is now old and on the decline? Trade our picks/prospects for another team's old washed up players?
Currently with Kessel, this team will forever stay in PERPETUAL MEDIOCRITY. Not good enough every year, not bad enough to have a high chance at game breaking talent.

Please come up with a plan on how to surround Kessel with players that Nonis/Burke hasn't already been trying to do since we aquired him.

Our window of opportunity is not now, trade Kessel and hope to be competing with a core of homegrown players developed through our new defensive systems in 3-4 years.

Do you think it makes sense to trade Kessel when we still have Lupul, Franson, Bozak and Phaneuf? Do you think trading 5 players with combined salary of 25-30 million is easily done? Just to be clear, I'm fine with trading Kessel but not while those other guys are still here for several reasons.

It's possible to contend with Kessel, it requires smart asset mngmt and perhaps a bit of luck but it can be done.

Asset mngmt - if we had not signed Clarkson, not traded for Bolland and not squandered assets like Grabovsky, Kulemin and Macarthur, would the future not look a fair bit brighter? We can start by not repeating those mistakes.

Luck - you can never be sure how players turn out but it's possible that Rielly, Bernier and Nylander all become star players. This will become a lot clearer in the next 2-3 years. Kessels value IMO will if anything be higher then as 8 million a year for him will seem smaller then so I don't see what the rush is.

I would start by trying to flip Lupul, Bozak, Franson and Phaneuf for younger assets and re-evaluate at that point.