Post-Game Talk: October 5, 2013| Flyers 1 at Canadiens 4

[Beef Invictus]

The team was "blown up" for other reasons, not solely to pay Bryz $5mill/per. You seriously think Carter and Richards were moved to make room for Bryz?

No, it wasn't blown up for "other" reasons. The media claims that because they're a bunch of morons with the collective critical thinking abilities of a crumbling rock; and if it WAS blown up for "other" reasons, this organization is dumber than the media, especially with those two playing a critical role in another team's Cup win immediately. I find it extremely convenient that, at the time of those trades, the team was in a really tight spot, and those trades just happened to address all the issues while allowing them to sign a goalie. If the Flyers weren't in a position where they had no choice but to make moves that bring back max value I doubt the core gets blown up. It was clear going into that offseason some big moves were getting made.

However, if Snider hadn't declared it was time to get a goalie at any cost they probably don't need to make those moves. The extra cap hit needed for Bryz is what really threw things over the edge.

I have never been in the Flyers locker room, but I'd imagine Lavy wants Hartnell to not fall over like an idiot 10 times per game. I don't think Lavy is above criticism, and am fine if they got rid of him if a better option is available, but the players have been in plenty of positions to score goals and just flat out sucked.

Hartnell isn't routinely in the top 6 because he sucks. His balance is what it is, but he gets his job done routinely. The players have collectively struggled to finish for 50 games now. More than that, going back to the NJ series. At some point it's time to stop holding the players responsible and wonder what sort of coaching they're getting. These same things were said during Stevens' tenure.

IMO, the team seems to lack leadership on the ice. They deflate and get rattled rather easily. I think it's just a matter of all the new pieces falling into place. This team will compete, but need a piece to really be a threat.

They don't lack leadership. Not with Lecavalier, Hartnell, Timonen, and Giroux out there. No, they look confused. They aren't functioning as a team, they're functioning as a group of individuals who look like they're all trying to bury the goal or set up a chance all on their own. When they aren't working as a cohesive unit that goes back to the coach. That the coach has been asked since last season to reign in the offense and try to coach a system he's not used to certainly can't help.

Also, this statement is even more deja-vu back to the Stevens/Richards-Carter era. Which of our "terrible" leaders should we ship to other teams to build a Cup contender this time?

The roster isn't bad. They're underperforming. Changing the roster isn't the answer, and it will likely set the org back even further...right after they set themselves back several years with the 2011 trades. Trying a new coach is the easier and more logical solution.

These guys look like they need to get back to basics.

 

[Garbage Goal]

This really is deja-vu from the Richards/Carter/Stevens days except back then we weren't even this bad. Still made the playoffs regularly.

 

[Beef Invictus]

This really is deja-vu from the Richards/Carter/Stevens days except back then we weren't even this bad. Still made the playoffs regularly.

That team still seemed to believe in itself and had fight. This team looks like it has no confidence in what they're doing.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

I'm not anti-Lavi at all, in fact I think he's a good coach.

That said, it does look like there's a deeper problem than personnel. I think the personnel needs A LOT of work, but the even strength play has just been so bad now for a while. Moving out Lavi might be the only feasible option at this point.

That said, who is his replacement? I don't see many appealing options

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

The frustrating thing about watching all of this unfold is that fixing the mess isn't that hard. Tightening the system up and playing a little more defensively is the easiest thing that can be done.

I look at how the Bruins played before Claude Julien came onboard and they were terrible. Dave Lewis had them playing horribly. Nobody knew what their roles were and they were all over the place. Claude Julien comes in, tightens things up and they turned it around in no time flat.

I also look at the Toronto Maple Leafs. Look at how they played when Ron Wilson was the head coach. They played the way the Flyers are currently playing. Randy Carlyle comes on board, tightens things up a bit defensively, and they're a much better team for it. Yes, they can still attack when they need to, but at the same time, they're more refined defensively and are a better team for it.

It won't take much to turn the Flyers around. This is a significantly talented club that is just in need of some serious direction. That's the one thing that's really hurting this club. They're looking to their coach to provide that direction and all what he can bark back is that it's players, not the system that's at fault.

 

[Garbage Goal]

That team still seemed to believe in itself and had fight. This team looks like it has no confidence in what they're doing.

Probably has something to do with Stevens not being sabotaged by the GM and Laviolette being sabotaged by the GM.

 

[chimrichalds18]

The frustrating thing about watching all of this unfold is that fixing the mess isn't that hard. Tightening the system up and playing a little more defensively is the easiest thing that can be done.

I look at how the Bruins played before Claude Julien came onboard and they were terrible. Dave Lewis had them playing horribly. Nobody knew what their roles were and they were all over the place. Claude Julien comes in, tightens things up and they turned it around in no time flat.

I also look at the Toronto Maple Leafs. Look at how they played when Ron Wilson was the head coach. They played the way the Flyers are currently playing. Randy Carlyle comes on board, tightens things up a bit defensively, and they're a much better team for it. Yes, they can still attack when they need to, but at the same time, they're more refined defensively and are a better team for it.

It won't take much to turn the Flyers around. This is a significantly talented club that is just in need of some serious direction. That's the one thing that's really hurting this club. They're looking to their coach to provide that direction and all what he can bark back is that it's players, not the system that's at fault.

What's really interesting -- and this speaks to how cyclical the coaching/personnel game is -- is that these comments, especially the bolded, are exactly what people were saying in the 09-10 season. The Flyers did not have much of a system with Stevens. Then Lavy came in and they started playing more aggressive and acting within a certain framework.

Now we've reached the point that Lavy's gotten stale. I actually really like him, but I feel the same way about him that I felt about Stevens 4 years ago: I think we've gone as far with him as we're going to go. I don't know who a realistic replacement is, though.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

What's really interesting -- and this speaks to how cyclical the coaching/personnel game is -- is that these comments, especially the bolded, are exactly what people were saying in the 09-10 season. The Flyers did not have much of a system with Stevens. Then Lavy came in and they started playing more aggressive and acting within a certain framework.

Now we've reached the point that Lavy's gotten stale. I actually really like him, but I feel the same way about him that I felt about Stevens 4 years ago: I think we've gone as far with him as we're going to go. I don't know who a realistic replacement is, though.

The unfortunate thing about coaching is that it's very cyclical. Very seldom do you see a coach stay tenured in a spot for very long. Mike Babcock is turning out to be the exception and even then, there were questions about his tenure with Detroit this past summer.

With that being said, coaches often have a way of re-inventing themselves if the need arises. I look at what Ken Hitchcock is doing in St. Louis and it astounds me that he couldn't do the same here. There's more flexibility to him now in terms of offensive game planning than what he let go on here. Mike Babcock has also re-invented himself in Detroit and has kept the Red Wings very competitive. And that's what completely baffles me about Laviolette.

Peter is a very smart coach. Extremely intelligent, well versed, very knowledgeable. Yet, his refusal to adapt his system to the personnel he has just leaves me scratching my head. Why does he refuse to modify his system? Why can't he adapt defensive strategies into his system to help out his defense? Why does the system have to be so attack and movement oriented when he doesn't have the personnel to employ it? That's what I don't understand. A smart coach should be able to adapt and plan accordingly. Yet, Laviolette refuses to budge and continues to employ a system that just doesn't work.

It's that reason that I've really soured on Laviolette and am starting to understand why the Islanders and the Hurricanes let him go. Teams eventually figure out his game plan and he's done because he's unwilling or just doesn't know how to adapt.

 

[Embiid]

The unfortunate thing about coaching is that it's very cyclical. Very seldom do you see a coach stay tenured in a spot for very long. Mike Babcock is turning out to be the exception and even then, there were questions about his tenure with Detroit this past summer.

With that being said, coaches often have a way of re-inventing themselves if the need arises. I look at what Ken Hitchcock is doing in St. Louis and it astounds me that he couldn't do the same here. There's more flexibility to him now in terms of offensive game planning than what he let go on here. Mike Babcock has also re-invented himself in Detroit and has kept the Red Wings very competitive. And that's what completely baffles me about Laviolette.

Peter is a very smart coach. Extremely intelligent, well versed, very knowledgeable. Yet, his refusal to adapt his system to the personnel he has just leaves me scratching my head. Why does he refuse to modify his system? Why can't he adapt defensive strategies into his system to help out his defense? Why does the system have to be so attack and movement oriented when he doesn't have the personnel to employ it? That's what I don't understand. A smart coach should be able to adapt and plan accordingly. Yet, Laviolette refuses to budge and continues to employ a system that just doesn't work.

It's that reason that I've really soured on Laviolette and am starting to understand why the Islanders and the Hurricanes let him go. Teams eventually figure out his game plan and he's done because he's unwilling or just doesn't know how to adapt.

Darwin would be very proud of this observation....

 

[Curufinwe]

That team still seemed to believe in itself and had fight. This team looks like it has no confidence in what they're doing.

The players have no confidence, and they are right to have no confidence because last year showed that the way the coach wants them to play won't work.

 

[Curufinwe]

Exactly. Dropping Talbot back to the 4th would be huge if we can grab a solid third line winger.

Rosehill works as a scratch, since he can play actual hockey a bit unlike Shelley and could fit in as a 7th D in an emergency...but there's no way we should be icing him regularly.

Even though our younger guys didn't look great in preseason, someone else needs to come up to push Talbot back down a line. Wish we had access to pre-injury McGinn.

We need to somehow swap the McGinn brothers without anyone noticing.

 

[Bernie Parent 1974]

Emery was good

goaltending hasn't been this team's issue since the SCF in '10

 

[Curufinwe]

Bryz was a big reason for their struggles last year. That's why he can't even get an AHL job.

 

[Fire Tortorella]

goaltending hasn't been this team's issue since the SCF in '10

Must be why our goaltender last year can't even land an AHL job, let alone an NHL one.

 

[Beef Invictus]

goaltending hasn't been this team's issue since the SCF in '10

Interesting. The 2011 playoffs, 2012 playoffs, 2011-12 regular season, and 2012-2013 regular season serve to firmly disprove this dubious claim. Goaltending instability has been a major problem since Emery's hip started ailing. I could argue it's been an issue for longer than that, but I consider that season to be the start of the current "era."

 

[orangecrush8]

goaltending hasn't been this team's issue since the SCF in '10

It may not have been the only issue, but it's always been a issue year in and year out.

First round vs Buffalo in 2011 it was the main issue, no one can deny that

 

[bungle]

That team still seemed to believe in itself and had fight. This team looks like it has no confidence in what they're doing.

I still enjoyed watching that team even as it lost game after game. This team doesn't seem to have one player who can consistently go out and have a big shift, get the fans going, and change the momentum of a game. Hartnell and Rinaldo both have the heart but can't pull it off in the same way a player like Mike Richards did.

 

[Curufinwe]

I hope the Flyers and the fans give Couturier a chance to develop here, and don't run him out of town the way St Louis did with Eller.

Lars is looking really good now in his fourth full NHL season.

 

[bennysflyers16]

I hope the Flyers and the fans give Couturier a chance to develop here, and don't run him out of town the way St Louis did with Eller.

Lars is looking really good now in his fourth full NHL season.

The fans don't want it too happen at all, Lavy may not agree. Vets with jam need only apply, and fighters too.

 

[Primary Assist*]

I hope the Flyers and the fans give Couturier a chance to develop here, and don't run him out of town the way St Louis did with Eller.

Lars is looking really good now in his fourth full NHL season.

Couturier doesn't have anywhere near the skating abilility nor puck skills that Eller possesses.

 

[Curufinwe]

Where were those skills when Eller put up 17 points in 77 games as a 21 year old? Funny how some people act like Couturier scoring 15 points in 46 games as a 20 year old is a sign he's a bust.

Couturier is not a great skater but he has good hands.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill...nt-and-Future-Potential/45/52052#.UlG8tFM0iSo

 

[Akanon]

I hope the Flyers and the fans give Couturier a chance to develop here, and don't run him out of town the way St Louis did with Eller.

Lars is looking really good now in his fourth full NHL season.

I will be extremely disappointed if they decide to trade Couturier. His potential is just so valuable to this team and its future.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Must be why our goaltender last year can't even land an AHL job, let alone an NHL one.

its a conspiracy I tell ya, a conspiracy. I mean hey Bryz played at a all star level last year. It was obviously the forwards, the defense, the coaching, the lights, the ice that were the reasons for the losing last season.
the goaltending was never at fault. ever.

give me a ****ing break

 

[Larry44]

No, it wasn't blown up for "other" reasons. The media claims that because they're a bunch of morons with the collective critical thinking abilities of a crumbling rock; and if it WAS blown up for "other" reasons, this organization is dumber than the media, especially with those two playing a critical role in another team's Cup win immediately. I find it extremely convenient that, at the time of those trades, the team was in a really tight spot, and those trades just happened to address all the issues while allowing them to sign a goalie. If the Flyers weren't in a position where they had no choice but to make moves that bring back max value I doubt the core gets blown up. It was clear going into that offseason some big moves were getting made.

You are wrong, it WAS only off-ice issues that led to BOTH Carter and Richards being traded simultaneously. To sign a goalie, they only needed to deal ONE of them. They decided to move them both, and did it cloak & dagger style, simultaneously, to avoid either of their trading partners asking too many questions about the off-ice habits of the star players.

That they went on to win a Cup as 2nd line players is irrelevant. The Flyers realized they were never going to win with them as 1st line players.

It was nothing about the cap or the money, it was that they fired Stevens because he let them get away with partying too much. Lavy came in and, in an indirect way to try and make it a 'team' thing, started the Dry Island idea. How 'bout this boys, let's see if we can go a month without drinking and see if that helps us get back in the race? Captain's reply: FU. Homer's reaction: Buh-bye.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You are wrong, it WAS only off-ice issues that led to BOTH Carter and Richards being traded simultaneously. To sign a goalie, they only needed to deal ONE of them. They decided to move them both, and did it cloak & dagger style, simultaneously, to avoid either of their trading partners asking too many questions about the off-ice habits of the star players.

That they went on to win a Cup as 2nd line players is irrelevant. The Flyers realized they were never going to win with them as 1st line players.

It was nothing about the cap or the money, it was that they fired Stevens because he let them get away with partying too much. Lavy came in and, in an indirect way to try and make it a 'team' thing, started the Dry Island idea. How 'bout this boys, let's see if we can go a month without drinking and see if that helps us get back in the race? Captain's reply: FU. Homer's reaction: Buh-bye.

Trading only one of them doesn't fill the other roster slots, and there isn't enough cap space to do it while signing Bryz. Simple math confirmed this well before the trades, which is why people were looking at Briere and/or Hartnell as potential trade bait in addition to Carter.

Everything you have posted here is wild speculation. You need to stop feeding on the slop that TMZ hack Timmeh pours in the media trough. Like I said, the hard facts of the roster, prospect pool situation, and cap situation are a lot more convincing than rumors spread by a media that disliked those players and found it easier to write a gossip column than do actual hockey analysis.