Objective Assessment of Each Amateur Scout Versus AI

mossey3535

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Feb 7, 2011
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I don't think it would be that good, but I wonder how much information out of public scouting reports you could get with a natural language processor and whether it would perform adequately with just points. I suspect the answer is not much... because all of the scouting reports read pretty much the same to me: skates well, great shot, reads the play, etc.
Again, garbage in = garbage out. The reason that Natural Language Processors now are so good is because it has a LOT of good information to train on and predict word sequences. Like the entire internet is filled with text both good and bad that is freely available. Any written work of literature whose copyright is up is a free training set. Feed it "The Great Gatsby" and tell it that's good; afterwards give it some tabloid trash and say that's bad.

Now feed it scouting reports - as you said, there isn't enough differentiation in the reports so the algorithm can't really extract useful patterns out of them.
 

Izzy Goodenough

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The issue with that is that the list would be based on incomplete information. If you were a talented regional scout you don't really know much about players outside of your region. You may be right most of the time with your assessment of the players you have viewed. And sometimes rankings are judgement call based on individual biases. The player you think could turn out to be the best player in the draft might not be the guy you would draft #1 overall for reasons.

Gillis attempted to draft using past data. They were prioritizing regions based on the number of NHL players that came out of that league.

The comparison of previous draft picks that built the model could be limited to the regional location covered by each scout making the comparisons accurate.

If the scout is not as accurate as AI models in their region, why employ the scout?
 

F A N

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Aug 12, 2005
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The comparison of previous draft picks that built the model could be limited to the regional location covered by each scout making the comparisons accurate.

If the scout is not as accurate as AI models in their region, why employ the scout?

I don't disagree in your overall idea of evaluating scouts.

It also depends on your definition of "accurate." I do believe in using stats to help identify a player's strengths and weakness for further investigation. Like if that stats say that Mitch Marner is a complete no show in important games it might be worth looking into. But I do think there are things that don't show up on the stat sheet so to speak.

I wonder how an IA would have rated Domi vs Horvat for example given that they played on the same team.
 

Nuckster

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May 3, 2023
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As far as I'm concerned, our amateur scouting, at least under Allvin and Rutherford, is largely unproven. Letterkenny had an up and down year, but that's pretty much what you'd expect from a 15th OA. At least he finished the season strong. Re-Petey seems like a win, so far. The rest are late round longshots anyway.
And why do we need AI, when we have @Melvin 's Potato GM?
Has melvin posted his ex post results? I'd like to see how he's done over time.
 

RandV

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Again, garbage in = garbage out. The reason that Natural Language Processors now are so good is because it has a LOT of good information to train on and predict word sequences. Like the entire internet is filled with text both good and bad that is freely available. Any written work of literature whose copyright is up is a free training set. Feed it "The Great Gatsby" and tell it that's good; afterwards give it some tabloid trash and say that's bad.

Now feed it scouting reports - as you said, there isn't enough differentiation in the reports so the algorithm can't really extract useful patterns out of them.
Yeah rather than "machine learning" what OP is talking about here sounds like something you could do with some fancy Excel work. Machine Learning AI works by imitating neural pathways and how our brain work, and is good at reproducing things we do intuitively like image recognition and language. It's damn near impossible for a traditional programming to just write code to determine 'this picture has a cat in it', while machine learning AI on the other hand nails it. But analyzing a bunch of stats and determining if a pick was good or not is the type of work that regular old computer programming handles well.
 

krutovsdonut

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ai needs good data and lots of it. i think it will need to watch tape to do that. let it watch all the minor hockey games every year, and feed it a diet of supplementary objective data, and it will find correlations that scouts miss and identify the best performers.

tracking personal development arcs will be more challenging, but i am sure personality tests and lbackground checks will help.
 

Izzy Goodenough

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Or they can just continue to go analog like this:





The surprising part is the Canucks are so backward that they think by posting this photo, they think that it should evoke more faith in their competency.
 
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rypper

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Or they can just continue to go analog like this:





The surprising part is the Canucks are so backward that they think by posting this photo, they think that it should evoke more faith in their competency.


So there's Clancy, Granato, and Harvey. Who are the other two?
 

RandV

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ai needs good data and lots of it. i think it will need to watch tape to do that. let it watch all the minor hockey games every year, and feed it a diet of supplementary objective data, and it will find correlations that scouts miss and identify the best performers.

tracking personal development arcs will be more challenging, but i am sure personality tests and lbackground checks will help.
AI has made leaps and bounds and it's very good at certain specific tasks. Get too complicated though and well...

 

RobertKron

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Or they can just continue to go analog like this:





The surprising part is the Canucks are so backward that they think by posting this photo, they think that it should evoke more faith in their competency.


Huh?

It looks like it's a pretty normal "behind the scenes" photo of them comparing notes from prospect interviews or whatever. I can photoshop C3P0 in there if you'd really like, though.
 

Izzy Goodenough

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Huh?

It looks like it's a pretty normal "behind the scenes" photo of them comparing notes from prospect interviews or whatever. I can photoshop C3P0 in there if you'd really like, though.

The pen or pencil in the left hand is the clue.

Once again they are leaning back and giving their "impressions".

This is the "Group Think" process that has made them losers for over 50 years.
 

RobertKron

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The pen or pencil in the left hand is the clue.

Once again they are leaning back and giving their "impressions".

This is the "Group Think" process that has made them losers for over 50 years.

Good grief.

Here are a couple photos of Granato from the first page of a google search of her name:

cammi-granato.jpg

Mic in left hand.

1686247892042.jpeg

Medals in left hand.

1686247922847.jpeg

Shoots f***ing right.

MAYBE SHES JUST f***ING LEFT HANDED.

You're just posting weird strings of buzzwords. Oooh, AI! Groupthink! Let me guess they need more/less synergy, more/less action on deliverables, and should something something the metaverse as well.
 
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AwesomeInTheory

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I wouldn’t be using a GP type criteria. I’d just be looking for smart and looking for stupid.

On the leaked 2010 draft list, our WHL scouts put a double-overage with 3 points in Teigan Zahn into the 3rd round and didn’t get any of Mark Stone/Brendan Hallagher/Radko Gudas (the eventual 3 best WHL players from that draft) rated anywhere on our draft list. Doesn’t take a complicated formula or external review to see that the WHL scouts had no idea what they were doing.
haha, yeah, but have you considered that drafting is voodoo and 'things just happen'? (Which is surely rationale some of the dinosaurs still inhabiting scouting tables utilize on a frequent basis.)
 

AwesomeInTheory

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The pen or pencil in the left hand is the clue.

Once again they are leaning back and giving their "impressions".

This is the "Group Think" process that has made them losers for over 50 years.
Are you seriously using someone using a writing instrument as proof of anything?

I work in a very high tech field that does 90% of it's work digital.

We still use pen and paper, for whatever reasons (people are comfortable with it, it's easy to 'sketch out' something, sometimes literally having a blank, physical page in front of you can spark different parts of the brain vs staring at a screen, it's faster to write thoughts than type notes -- not everyone is a great typist, etc.) Going 'analog' isn't an issue.

Your points about the 'group think' are valid, but I am not sure how you're arriving to that conclusion from the picture you're critiquing.
 
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RobertKron

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I'd say the giveaway is that... she is writing something right in the photo in question. :laugh:

Oh I figured they were claiming this was some staged photo from big meeting or whatever trying to convince us of whatever the f*** it's supposed to be doing

But anyway, yes, I would prefer that nobody in the organization ever gather or talk to each other.
 

Izzy Goodenough

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With all of the Stats that have been gathered at successive NHL-Combines, together with Amateur and Pro performance, it should be straightforward to create an AI that ranks the probabilities for success for each prospect in a current draft year.

Does this AI program already exist?
 

MarkMM

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The change in style and management strategy of the NHL would also impact any algorithm.

I remember reading about how Detroit prioritized puck possession as a strategy and that led them to draft under-sized European players because you can measure height and weight, eye-ball shot and speed, but if somehow some player managed to always have good possession then they were finding some way of being effective (it drove down goals against and enabled goals for, etc), so it was an easy metric that allowed them to identify players that everyone was under-valuing. I think this was the same interview where they talked about not overpaying for goalies, because the incremental additional dollar past some point doesn't really change much.

Anyway, this was a while ago, and NHL teams now don't undervalue such players as much and the league style and rules have changed so any model that was trained on past data to predict for current or future environment would stumble in a changing environment. There were some articles that argued that this was the reason the Red Wings lost their ability to keep being competitive on the fly, the world caught up to their drafting / scouting edge.

The bigger opportunity in AI for me would be the ability to use computer vision to consistently extract features that you can then build models around. It would be a LONG process to find out what worked, and there are likely people already working on it, but in Silicon Valley there's a famous Coupa Cafe and last time I was there I saw a Stanford student using computer vision to analyze the geometry of passes in women's soccer (based on her look and build my guess was she herself was a soccer player), as she was trying to quantify the likelihood of successful pass connections, and then use that to value the quality of judgement of each player over time.

Niklas Lidstrom participated in a PhD thesis of some mathematicians who studied how Lidstrom was primarily effective because he had a near mathematical judgement of the best play to make in a given situation, in effect quantifying "HockeyIQ" and in Silicon Valley I saw people working on measuring this through computer vision for class projects and start-ups in other sports.

So imagine a world where you can measure height, weight, counting stats...and straight line speed...and hockey IQ...etc, and then project over time what combination led to success.

Anyway, you can learn more here:

 

andora

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Apr 23, 2002
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Good grief.

Here are a couple photos of Granato from the first page of a google search of her name:

cammi-granato.jpg

Mic in left hand.

View attachment 716133
Medals in left hand.

View attachment 716134
Shoots f***ing right.

MAYBE SHES JUST f***ING LEFT HANDED.

You're just posting weird strings of buzzwords. Oooh, AI! Groupthink! Let me guess they need more/less synergy, more/less action on deliverables, and should something something the metaverse as well.
Did she play center
 
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biturbo19

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The issue with that is that the list would be based on incomplete information. If you were a talented regional scout you don't really know much about players outside of your region. You may be right most of the time with your assessment of the players you have viewed. And sometimes rankings are judgement call based on individual biases. The player you think could turn out to be the best player in the draft might not be the guy you would draft #1 overall for reasons.

Gillis attempted to draft using past data. They were prioritizing regions based on the number of NHL players that came out of that league.

For one thing, AI is a f***ing moron. People seem to think it's this massive cure-all for everything. But AI machine learning is ultimately just a really complex parrot. It mimics whatever you train it on. That means it's inherently backward focused. It can't truly innovate or project. It's just a really crappy annoying way of compiling human generated information and material and distilling it to a common denominator.

But this specifically, is a big problem in how you'd even set about assessing the "skill" of an individual scout. Contrary to sites like this where people somehow individually compile lists that are like 200 or 300+ players long...and somehow claim to have seen enough of these players to have those rankings be credible, actual NHL scouts tend to be more specialized by region. They'll have a read on players within that area based on more extensive viewings, interviews, conversations with coaches, teammates, the equipment guy, whoever.

But you can't really frame a bigger picture with that, because it's not reasonable to expect scouts to be fully versed in all of the prospects from all of the regions. Even within a region...some years, a particular region might just have a particularly lackluster crop of prospects. There are clearly strong years and weak years for every league/region.

The other aspect of this that doesn't work, is that in order to even assess whether a scout is "performing well" within their own region...you have to set out some sort of criteria for what "good performance" looks like.

Who is better: The scout who consistently gets "on base" with a bunch of guys who top out as NHL/AHL tweener journeymen and racks up a ton of "games played" across a plethora of pretty cruddy players? Or the guy who is swinging for the fences and whiffs on most of his picks but hits an absolute home run picking out a hidden gem superstar? Obviously a hyperbolic hypothetical...but illustrative of the problem in subjectivity of how you even evaluate "scouting performance".


There's also the issue of "scouting directives". When you go back and look at previous lists, even if you're working with individual lists from a specific regional scout for their area...those rankings are still subject to that top-down management directive. From the Owner/GM/Director of Scouting. Over the years, the Canucks have very publicly mentioned changes in scouting direction and priorities. If you're telling your scouts to go out and rank players while prioritizing a particular attribute, position, skillset, demeanor, statistical category, whatever...it's going to completely skew that list away from the natural instincts of an individual scout. The Canucks have meddled with all sorts of frameworks for evaluation over the years...most of them have been utterly garbage. But those are still going to be poisoning your "data" when evaluating a specific scout. Basically depending on how well they followed instructions...where the more closely they followed directives, the worse off they'll probably fare in an analysis of their scouting ability.

Not to mention the way the game is continuously evolving and changing. What worked before isn't going to be what works in the future. Teams around the league are constantly shifting in their scouting priorities as well...and fluctuating in the way they value certain traits and types of players. An efficiency a scout may have found in drafting small skilled guys back in the day, isn't going to be nearly as effective today...where teams are far more gung ho on selecting those sort of talented players than they were during an era where that type of prospect was hard pressed to make it in a league that enforced it's rules very differently, to favour size and physicality.


I wouldn’t be using a GP type criteria. I’d just be looking for smart and looking for stupid.

On the leaked 2010 draft list, our WHL scouts put a double-overage with 3 points in Teigan Zahn into the 3rd round and didn’t get any of Mark Stone/Brendan Hallagher/Radko Gudas (the eventual 3 best WHL players from that draft) rated anywhere on our draft list. Doesn’t take a complicated formula or external review to see that the WHL scouts had no idea what they were doing.

This however, is something that doesn't require AI bullshit. It really shouldn't be that difficult to go through those lists and see where things are going right, and where things are going wrong. You should be able to see patterns in a scouts process. Not necessarily even evaluating the "results" per se...but evaluating the process they're using to get to those results. You also have access to these scouts to have a little tete-a-tete where you can have them explain things about their process that aren't clear from the data. That can allow you to understand better, if good results are due to ability and process or dumb luck, or whether underwhelming results are a product of bad luck with a reasonable process or just being a complete nimrod with an idiotic process.


I think working through the staff and establishing those sort of things is a lot more valuable a process than trying to integrate AI on a process that is extremely nuanced and complicated, where AI tends to perform pretty terribly.
 
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Izzy Goodenough

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The Canucks scouting staff is arguably horrendous at their respective jobs.

After hearing how crappy the draft picks, round 3 (second pick) and on, that the Canucks just made, two things come to mind:

First, couldn't they have just bundled all of them to move off Myers and/or Garland ahead of July 1 instead, they let their Scouts waste these picks on prospects with near zero chance to even sign pro-contracts.
and
Second, when will Todd Harvey and the rest of the inane scouting staff who were "arguing for their guy" be canned.

It is unnerving to hear Harvey fail to explain why players who have never excelled are suddenly going to become NHL prospects because his scouts argued passionately for the players.

It is unbelievable the Franchise employs guys argue for their 20-year-old draft prospect with no upside, against all metrics; just a horrible waste of draft assets.

AI, if properly trained on real datasets, would likely do better.
 

Nuckler

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May 7, 2013
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The Canucks scouting staff is arguably horrendous at their respective jobs.

After hearing how crappy the draft picks, round 3 (second pick) and on, that the Canucks just made, two things come to mind:

First, couldn't they have just bundled all of them to move off Myers and/or Garland ahead of July 1 instead, they let their Scouts waste these picks on prospects with near zero chance to even sign pro-contracts.
and
Second, when will Todd Harvey and the rest of the inane scouting staff who were "arguing for their guy" be canned.

It is unnerving to hear Harvey fail to explain why players who have never excelled are suddenly going to become NHL prospects because his scouts argued passionately for the players.

It is unbelievable the Franchise employs guys argue for their 20-year-old draft prospect with no upside, against all metrics; just a horrible waste of draft assets.

AI, if properly trained on real datasets, would likely do better.
A potato would likely do better, did not like the draft after the first 2 picks. It almost makes you wonder if scouts see all the lists out there and feel like they have to big brain the teams picks to show that not just anybody can do it... And then subsequently have none of the picks turn out, but it's 3-4 years down the road and nobody cares about them anymore. Filling organizational depth through the draft should be anethma, you can pick up 19-20 year olds as free agents or when they age out of the CHL.
 

Izzy Goodenough

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The Franchise entrusts the future of the club to a group of scouts that are not remotely competent.

The passionate conversations in the scouting meetings are exactly the subjective dialogues that lead to failure; including their truly epic failures in rankings in the recent draft.

Is there no oversight on these clowns?

IA (or a potato) could help them or replace them.
 

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