News Article: Nylander Discussion

[Vexed]

Show me all the 1Cs in the NHL who were first round picks who weren't in the NHL until 21 or 22

I think Getz was 21 but he may have been 20 with a birthday in May

 

[Nithoniniel]

Some prospects show a two-way or a commitment or talent for it, he hasn't.

He COULD do/be pretty much anything, but expecting to be anything other decent/average is, like expe cting Rielly to become a fear physical player, or Biggs a big time scorer etc... Those things COULD happen, but lets be realistic.

Commitment is key there, and Nylander showed that commitment as a C in Sweden. As a wing, he seems lost in terms of two-way play.

I disagree with your comparisons. Physicality demands certain qualities, being a big time scorer demands the kind of talent that you generally don't develop post-draft. Becoming a two-way game is about attention to detail, commitment to playing the full 200 and working on your game in the defensive zone. You also need general smartness, but Nylander has that.

I very much disagree with it being unrealistic to expect him to develop a two-way game. There are a few keys. Commitment, as you said. Demands from the organisation is another, if a player isn't stressed to develop his overall game then he'll most likely just sharpen existing skills. And patience is the third, as it often means longer development time.

 

[silentbob37*]

It has nothing to do with age. Detroit hasn't drafted top 10 in a long long time.

If they draft a player like Nylander, I highly doubt he would be in the AHL till he's 22-23-24.

The players they draft are usually highly skilled that need work on most other parts of their games (i.e project picks like Mantha).

You can follow the Detroit model with Connor Brown but not Nylander.

Age is the indicator.

The vast majority of people are much more physically and mentally mature at 21-22 then at 19-20. It takes a young player 1-2-3 years to learn a system so well that he can move up a level of hockey and fit in perfectly. The Red Wings don't hold people back until they are 22-23, it just takes that long for the vast majority of players to get to the level that the Red Wings demand their players be at.

If Shanahan and bringing that system/attitude here, we won't see Nylander until he ready to step in and be a contributiong, NHL player. Not a young guy who is good enough to learn on the job in the NHL, which probably means 21-22-23 years old. And what would be wrong with that?

Lets look at some of their more recent call ups - Tatar had 19 goals in his first full season (73 games). Nyquist had 28 goals in 57 games. Sheahan had 24 points in 46 games. Bringing up Nylander next year, probably the year after and you're asking/expecting him to learn on the job, that isn't something Detriot does.

 

[silentbob37*]

Commitment is key there, and Nylander showed that commitment as a C in Sweden. As a wing, he seems lost in terms of two-way play.

I disagree with your comparisons. Physicality demands certain qualities, being a big time scorer demands the kind of talent that you generally don't develop post-draft. Becoming a two-way game is about attention to detail, commitment to playing the full 200 and working on your game in the defensive zone. You also need general smartness, but Nylander has that.

I very much disagree with it being unrealistic to expect him to develop a two-way game. There are a few keys. Commitment, as you said. Demands from the organisation is another, if a player isn't stressed to develop his overall game then he'll most likely just sharpen existing skills. And patience is the third, as it often means longer development time.

Being a two-way player does as well, or everyone would be a great two-way player.

And you disgree all you want, doesn't change the fact that I'm right. Realisticlly, expect an average/decent, doesn't hurt you defensive game. You want "a good two-way" player (ie someone who can play on the PK etc....).......he could be that, but you don't draft him given his strengths and weaknesses and demand/expect it of him. Just like no oen should have expected it of a 21 year old Kessel when they traded for him. Nothing to say he couldn't, but you don't expect it from him given what you know of him.

 

[Vexed]

Age is the indicator.

The vast majority of people are much more physically and mentally mature at 21-22 then at 19-20. It takes a young player 1-2-3 years to learn a system so well that he can move up a level of hockey and fit in perfectly. The Red Wings don't hold people back until they are 22-23, it just takes that long for the vast majority of players to get to the level that the Red Wings demand their players be at.

If Shanahan and bringing that system/attitude here, we won't see Nylander until he ready to step in and be a contributiong, NHL player. Not a young guy who is good enough to learn on the job in the NHL, which probably means 21-22-23 years old. And what would be wrong with that?

Lets look at some of their more recent call ups - Tatar had 19 goals in his first full season (73 games). Nyquist had 28 goals in 57 games. Sheahan had 24 points in 46 games. Bringing up Nylander next year, probably the year after and you're asking/expecting him to learn on the job, that isn't something Detriot does.

The biggest difference between a high 1st rd pick and a low first or 2nd or 4th rd pick like you are comparing to, is how close they are to being NHL ready.

Detroit does not artificially keep kids down and neither should we

 

[Bluelines]

Age is the indicator.

The vast majority of people are much more physically and mentally mature at 21-22 then at 19-20. It takes a young player 1-2-3 years to learn a system so well that he can move up a level of hockey and fit in perfectly. The Red Wings don't hold people back until they are 22-23, it just takes that long for the vast majority of players to get to the level that the Red Wings demand their players be at.

If Shanahan and bringing that system/attitude here, we won't see Nylander until he ready to step in and be a contributiong, NHL player. Not a young guy who is good enough to learn on the job in the NHL, which probably means 21-22-23 years old. And what would be wrong with that?

Lets look at some of their more recent call ups - Tatar had 19 goals in his first full season (73 games). Nyquist had 28 goals in 57 games. Sheahan had 24 points in 46 games. Bringing up Nylander next year, probably the year after and you're asking/expecting him to learn on the job, that isn't something Detriot does.

I agree 100 percent, if he can't dominate in the AHL what are the chances he be even an OK top six forward in the NHL?

Leave the kid on the farm till he tears up lower pro's

 

[MLG Ghost]

Age is the indicator.

The vast majority of people are much more physically and mentally mature at 21-22 then at 19-20. It takes a young player 1-2-3 years to learn a system so well that he can move up a level of hockey and fit in perfectly. The Red Wings don't hold people back until they are 22-23, it just takes that long for the vast majority of players to get to the level that the Red Wings demand their players be at.

If Shanahan and bringing that system/attitude here, we won't see Nylander until he ready to step in and be a contributiong, NHL player. Not a young guy who is good enough to learn on the job in the NHL, which probably means 21-22-23 years old. And what would be wrong with that?

Lets look at some of their more recent call ups - Tatar had 19 goals in his first full season (73 games). Nyquist had 28 goals in 57 games. Sheahan had 24 points in 46 games. Bringing up Nylander next year, probably the year after and you're asking/expecting him to learn on the job, that isn't something Detriot does.

If Nylander is going to be learning on the job next year, which I believe he will be, I prefer he does it with the Marlies, away from the spot light. When it comes to dealing with young draft picks, even potential blue chippers, one can't really argue that the Detroit model has been a hell of alot more effective and successful than the Leafs model.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Being a two-way player does as well, or everyone would be a great two-way player.

And you disgree all you want, doesn't change the fact that I'm right. Realisticlly, expect an average/decent, doesn't hurt you defensive game. You want "a good two-way" player (ie someone who can play on the PK etc....).......he could be that, but you don't draft him given his strengths and weaknesses and demand/expect it of him. Just like no oen should have expected it of a 21 year old Kessel when they traded for him. Nothing to say he couldn't, but you don't expect it from him given what you know of him.

Only if everyone had the commitment and general smartness themselves, and expectations and patience from their organisation. You know, the factors I mentioned in the post you quoted.

Oh, your opinion is a fact now? Not much idea to continue discussing these things, we should just ask our resident oracle.

 

[Vexed]

ITT people who don't understand the "Detroit model"

 

[silentbob37*]

It's reasonable to expect it's possible. It would have been reasonable to expect the same of Kessel at the same age too, just because it's reasonable doesn't mean it's gonna happen.

The fact that you'd get upset and feel the need to tell us we're wrong "Because it's not reasonable!!!1one!" is dumb. YOU don't think it's reasonable. When in fact it is well within reason that Nylander could develop a good two way game (As to your to address my example of Kadri/Lindholm/Forsberg btw, you can always find exceptions, Kessel is arguably the exception to the rule in that his defensive game never developed at all. Pretty much every player develops defensively with NHL experience.)

I get upset when people put unreasonable expectations on Leaf prospects because its not fair to the prospects, and when they don't reach heights they were never going too, a lot of those fans turn on them.

There is ZERO reason to expect Nylander to be anything other then average/he doesn't hurt you defensively.

Detroit has consistently fielded a team of veterans that young players need to be better than to make the team. You can't make a "Detroit" model from scratch you need to have a quality NHL squad before you can keep kids down longer. Its detrimental to artificially keep kids down. You can't have a kid come to camp, school everybody consistently and send him back without breaking his will or desire to play for you.

We don't know where he will be next season so its impossible to say what we should do

So what? And of course you can create their model from scratch. There is no reason Nylander can't play in the AHL until he is physically and mentally an adult (most likely 21-22), knows the systems the Leafs will play inside and out, knows what his role WILL be, and can be expected to join the NHL to be a contributor right away isntead of learning on the job for 1-2 years. There no reason none of that can't be the case.

As I said, you dont keep himd own until he is 22 just because, but you have expectations that won't be reached by 99% of players untilt hey are 21-22-23-24. And the argument was made over and over that were ruining Kadri by sending him down until he was 21-22. Look at how it ruined him.

Apples and Oranges comparing a very different Detroit team to the Leafs. Detroit hasn't had a player as good as Nylander is at his age since Yzerman . Zetterberg was pretty good but not that good and for 25 yrs Detroit has had a team that's tough to break onto.

No reason the Leafs can't be just as hard to break into. And yes NYlander is skilled, is he going to be physically and mentally an adult before everyone in the Wings system? Is he going to learn a system that will be brand new next year by game 1?

Also Nylander/Rielly et all are better as Prospects than any Prospect detroit has had out of the draft in forever (Zetts/Dats but they were unknowns at the time and in this day and age would almost certainly have been top 3 picks imo)

And they still weren't ready until their early 20's.

 

[Bluelines]

itt people who don't understand the "detroit model"

itt?

 

[Pi]

ITT people who don't understand the "Detroit model"

Pretty much.

We should follow the Detroit model on McDavid if we get him. McDavid would tear the AHL when he's 20 years old.

Send him back to OHL and let him get 200 points.

itt?

Means, In this thread.

 

[Vexed]

itt?

ITT = in this thread

I think that we tried Detroits model and failed. DEtroit ices a veteran team, they sign older players that young players have to leap over. We tried that just our choices in vets sucked compared to them. We had a few other issues too but that is a big one

 

[silentbob37*]

The biggest difference between a high 1st rd pick and a low first or 2nd or 4th rd pick like you are comparing to, is how close they are to being NHL ready.

Detroit does not artificially keep kids down and neither should we

No, the difference is when a player can hang in the NHL. Thats not the same as being ready. Take Tavares for example, He played in the NHL as an 18 year old, but how long was it until he hit his potential/stride? 2, 3 seasons? Did he NEED to learn on the job in the NHL? No, he oculd have done that learning and maturing at a lower league.

Just look at the Wilds track record, they let their guys develop into the NHL, how many busts did they have hte last 10 years?

I'm not suggesting the Leafs artifically keep him down, but is he going to be physically an adult man next year? or the year after? Probabl ynot. Mentally mature enough, probably not (most 19-20 years aren't), is he going tknow the Leafs systems next year? Absolutely not. Is he going to be good enough to be a 20 goal scorer right away in the next year or two? Probably not. So if not, he isn't ready.

If Nylander is going to be learning on the job next year, which I believe he will be, I prefer he does it with the Marlies, away from the spot light. When it comes to dealing with young draft picks, even potential blue chippers, one can't really argue that the Detroit model has been a hell of alot more effective and successful than the Leafs model.

People only want patience and to follow the Wings model when its prospects they aren't excited about.

Only if everyone had the commitment and general smartness themselves, and expectations and patience from their organisation. You know, the factors I mentioned in the post you quoted.

Oh, your opinion is a fact now? Not much idea to continue discussing these things, we should just ask our resident oracle.

And NOTHING in Nylanders past/history indicates he has all that in regards to playing a two-way game.

In this case, its not my opinion. Its the kind of player he is.

ITT people who don't understand the "Detroit model"

Like you?

 

[silentbob37*]

Pretty much.

We should follow the Detroit model on McDavid if we get him. McDavid would tear the AHL when he's 20 years old.

Send him back to OHL and let him get 200 points.



Means, In this thread.

If he isn't physically or mentally mature enough, if he'd have to go through 2-3 years of average/ok NHL hockey like Tavares did.......why not? Whats the rush.

The Oilers thought Hopkins was ready and talented enough, it might have ruined his career because he wasn't physically ready.

 

[Vexed]

No, the difference is when a player can hang in the NHL. Thats not the same as being ready. Take Tavares for example, He played in the NHL as an 18 year old, but how long was it until he hit his potential/stride? 2, 3 seasons? Did he NEED to learn on the job in the NHL? No, he oculd have done that learning and maturing at a lower league.

Just look at the Wilds track record, they let their guys develop into the NHL, how many busts did they have hte last 10 years?

I'm not suggesting the Leafs artifically keep him down, but is he going to be physically an adult man next year? or the year after? Probabl ynot. Mentally mature enough, probably not (most 19-20 years aren't), is he going tknow the Leafs systems next year? Absolutely not. Is he going to be good enough to be a 20 goal scorer right away in the next year or two? Probably not. So if not, he isn't ready.



People only want patience and to follow the Wings model when its prospects they aren't excited about.



And NOTHING in Nylanders past/history indicates he has all that in regards to playing a two-way game.

In this case, its not my opinion. Its the kind of player he is.



Like you?

Give me one example of a player Detroit artificially kept down?

All I am saying is that Nylander should be up when he is ready. You don't know where he will be at next season and neither do I. That is my point. I don' advocate rushing him up or forcing him down.

I don't think we disagree on premise I just think you are making an assertion on where he will be in the future that may be true or may not be. From what I gather, I don't think you would advocate keeping him down if he was ready to be a major contributor next season.

If he can contribute well in a top 6 role in the NHL then he hasn't got much more to learn in the AHL

 

[silentbob37*]

I would be thrilled if the Leafs, with EVERY prospect, took the approach of.

The NHL is a mens league and we expect prospects to be men, not boys, physically and mentally before they join the Maple Leafs. For most people that means you have to be 20-21-22+ years old. We expect our prospects to join our club and make meaningful contributions, the NHL is not a place for development or learning on the job. We expect our prospects to know their role and our systems before joing the Maple Leafs, which for almost all will mean 1-2 years min. with the Marlies.

None of that would mean an 18 or 19 year old COULDN'T make the Leafs, you aren't holding anyone back artifically. They would be demanding certain levels of competence that the vast majority of players won't be able to meet until their early 20's.

 

[silentbob37*]

Give me one example of a player Detroit artificially kept down?

All I am saying is that Nylander should be up when he is ready. You don't know where he will be at next season and neither do I. That is my point. I don' advocate rushing him up or forcing him down.

I don't think we disagree on premise I just think you are making an assertion on where he will be in the future that may be true or may not be. From what I gather, I don't think you would advocate keeping him down if he was ready to be a major contributor next season.

If he can contribute well in a top 6 role in the NHL then he hasn't got much more to learn in the AHL

Holy crap - NONE> The Wings DON'T DO THAT an dI'm not suggesting the Leafs do.

Nylander should, but the idea of that 19 year old is ready for the NHL is, in almost every case, laughable. Considering that being able to step in, know the systems, know your role etc... should be part of being ready, it will be IMPOSSIBLE for him to be ready next year.

and contribution is NOT the end all, be all of what a player is ready. What the Marlies play, do you really think Nylander is ready to take a big open ice hit from Chara? kadri was held back until he 22 because he wasn't physically ready (a few other things as well, but that was a huge part of it).

 

[Vexed]

I would be thrilled if the Leafs, with EVERY prospect, took the approach of.

The NHL is a mens league and we expect prospects to be men, not boys, physically and mentally before they join the Maple Leafs. For most people that means you have to be 20-21-22+ years old. We expect our prospects to join our club and make meaningful contributions, the NHL is not a place for development or learning on the job. We expect our prospects to know their role and our systems before joing the Maple Leafs, which for almost all will mean 1-2 years min. with the Marlies.

None of that would mean an 18 or 19 year old COULDN'T make the Leafs, you aren't holding anyone back artifically. They would be demanding certain levels of competence that the vast majority of players won't be able to meet until their early 20's.

I believe they already do this then and have since Burke arrived. Schenn was ready and showed it, he flopped out though. Maybe a misread or maybe its all on the player. Kadri was kept down for the very reasons you mentioned and Reilly has shown he was ahead of the curve when he got here.

Like I said, I actually don't think we disagree

 

[silentbob37*]

I believe they already do this then and have since Burke arrived. Schenn was ready and showed it, he flopped out though. Maybe a misread or maybe its all on the player. Kadri was kept down for the very reasons you mentioned and Reilly has shown he was ahead of the curve when he got here.

Like I said, I actually don't think we disagree

Except you don't think what you believe actually applies to Nylander, for some reason.

He isn't a "man" yet, he is still a boy. His game could still use refinement, mostly away from the puck. He could stand playing a full season or two in North America to get used to that many games. And given that we'll have a new coahc next year he WILL NOT Know the systems enough to step right in next year.

ANd if we look at the REd Wings, most of their prospects show they are ready, and then have to prove it during an exteded call up before actually making the NHL. So even if Nylander is showing he is ready at 20-21, that means he doesn't get a roster spot until 21-22.

 

[Vexed]

Except you don't think what you believe actually applies to Nylander, for some reason.

He isn't a "man" yet, he is still a boy. His game could still use refinement, mostly away from the puck. He could stand playing a full season or two in North America to get used to that many games. And given that we'll have a new coahc next year he WILL NOT Know the systems enough to step right in next year.

ANd if we look at the REd Wings, most of their prospects show they are ready, and then have to prove it during an exteded call up before actually making the NHL. So even if Nylander is showing he is ready at 20-21, that means he doesn't get a roster spot until 21-22.

No I do think it applies to Nylander, I just think the decision should be made at camp next year and not now. Pretty simple

 

[SarcazemKadri]

The posters here worried about his tendency to float and avoid contact areas need to give it a rest. If you watch Nylander play, you can tell he knows exactly what to do on the ice and nearly everyone of his offensive tools is elite level. Yes, there is some hesitation when going into contact areas. But you know why? Because hes a boy! He's probably 170lbs soaking wet and 18 years old. Think about how much you filled out from age 18-22.

All Nylander needs is strength and he has the potential to be an impact top 6 winger/C for the Leafs.

Give it time.

 

[samyy]

The posters here worried about his tendency to float and avoid contact areas need to give it a rest. If you watch Nylander play, you can tell he knows exactly what to do on the ice and nearly everyone of his offensive tools is elite level. Yes, there is some hesitation when going into contact areas. But you know why? Because hes a boy! He's probably 170lbs soaking wet and 18 years old. Think about how much you filled out from age 18-22.

All Nylander needs is strength and he has the potential to be an impact top 6 winger/C for the Leafs.

Give it time.

Definitely sounds like people don't watch his game, all three of his goals have been right around tough contact areas. First one he drove up the middle to put in a rebound right in front of the net. Second one was after taking a cross check to the sides, stood right back up and went back to the same position and tapped in another rebound. Third goal today was also a goal off a rebound. He is not afraid to put himself into contact areas to score. Also, he is great on the forecheck, while he doesn't use contact as much, his body position and great stick regularly gives defencemen trouble, he forced a turnover today for instance and setup a line mate for a quality scoring chance.

I think a lot of people think he's "floating" because his stride is completely effortless, he gets to top speed and is flying by people but makes it look like he doesn't have to break a sweat to get there. Also, hes playing WING people, there aren't huge defensive responsibilities on the wing, he regularly supports the D on the board and is often the guy making the first pass or carrying the puck of the zone.

 

[PuckMagi]

The posters here worried about his tendency to float and avoid contact areas need to give it a rest. If you watch Nylander play, you can tell he knows exactly what to do on the ice and nearly everyone of his offensive tools is elite level. Yes, there is some hesitation when going into contact areas. But you know why? Because hes a boy! He's probably 170lbs soaking wet and 18 years old. Think about how much you filled out from age 18-22.

All Nylander needs is strength and he has the potential to be an impact top 6 winger/C for the Leafs.

Give it time.

Great post.

There's also a big difference between Nylander floating and Kessel floating. Nylander actually attacks the puck with his stick and seems to be really good at stripping the puck. He doesn't use his body much, but he's great with his stick. And at his size, he's better off playing this way. As he gets bigger, he'll be able to do both.

Kessel just kind of floats by the other players while taking a weak swipe attempt.

 

[Nithoniniel]

And NOTHING in Nylanders past/history indicates he has all that in regards to playing a two-way game.

Is that so? Because I've actually watched him a ton since the draft, listened to him and talked with people close to him, and I can say that the dedication is definitely there. It's an opinion that is shared by a lot of people around the MODO organisation, where they were happy with his two-way commitment as a center, and Swedish posters that like me has watched him a lot.

What do you base your opinion on, I wonder?