News Article: Nylander Discussion

[Nithoniniel]

Read a scouting report, he isn't a two-way player. He is a skilled, pretty much offense only player.

Unless he has a Yzerman like revelation, the best to really expect out him is that he is an average/servicable defensive game. But a "two-way player"? You're setting your sights too high, just like the people who expected Schenn to develop an offensive game.

Yeah I know he is not a two-way player NOW, that is why I'm talking about him developing that part of his game.

He had a better two-way game in Sweden than several other now highly-touted players did before they went over. John Klingberg in Dallas for example had a defensive game that was absolutely dreadful, not even comparable to Nylander. He's pretty decent in that regard now. Filip Forsberg, Elias Lindholm both had a very comparable defensive game, and both are now seen as two-way players in the coming.

I'm not asking him to turn into a Selke caliber defensive player, as you seem to indicate with your Yzerman comparison, I'm talking about how becoming a solid all-round player. And that's quite easily within reach.

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

He just scored, 9ps in 14 games is not bad for an 18 year old by any means.

 

[Pi]

He just scored, 9ps in 14 games is not bad for an 18 year old by any means.

It's freaking awesome. Nylander is a step ahead of Kadri as a prospect.

Nylander should be on the Leafs roster next year.

 

[Erndog]

It's freaking awesome. Nylander is a step ahead of Kadri as a prospect.

Nylander should be on the Leafs roster next year.

No, he most certainly should not.

A full year in the AHL away from this tire fire would be extremely beneficial long term.

 

[Territory]

Nobody can keep up with Nylander... Every time he carries it up and enters the ozone, he's alone 1v3. He's fast.

 

[Gary Batman]

It's freaking awesome. Nylander is a step ahead of Kadri as a prospect.

Nylander should be on the Leafs roster next year.

There is no reason for him to be on Leafs, and he won't be.

Shanahan is following the Detroit way. Note that in this stretch, he has only called up Marlies scrubs rather than Nylander or Brown.

Don't hold your breath for him being called up.

 

[Shwaguy*]

No, he most certainly should not.

A full year in the AHL away from this tire fire would be extremely beneficial long term.

If he's good enough he should be on the big team. That's it. If he's not, keep him down

See Rielly: Morgan.


Prospects of their caliber typically only stay down for 1 year.

 

[Shwaguy*]

Look, if he's not ready, keep him down, if he is, bring him up.


The same people who say keep him down are the same people who were saying keep Rielly down.

 

[Vexed]

There is no reason for him to be on Leafs, and he won't be.

Shanahan is following the Detroit way. Note that in this stretch, he has only called up Marlies scrubs rather than Nylander or Brown.

Don't hold your breath for him being called up.

The Detroit way has nothing to do with prospect call-ups as they call up prospects from time to time before they ever stick with the club. The Detroit model is that players stick when they are ready to stick not before and not after.

 

[silentbob37*]

There is no reason for him to be on Leafs, and he won't be.

Shanahan is following the Detroit way. Note that in this stretch, he has only called up Marlies scrubs rather than Nylander or Brown.

Don't hold your breath for him being called up.

If he is, then don't texpect to see him for another 2-3-4 years.

It's freaking awesome. Nylander is a step ahead of Kadri as a prospect.

Nylander should be on the Leafs roster next year.

Why?

Yeah I know he is not a two-way player NOW, that is why I'm talking about him developing that part of his game.

He had a better two-way game in Sweden than several other now highly-touted players did before they went over. John Klingberg in Dallas for example had a defensive game that was absolutely dreadful, not even comparable to Nylander. He's pretty decent in that regard now. Filip Forsberg, Elias Lindholm both had a very comparable defensive game, and both are now seen as two-way players in the coming.

I'm not asking him to turn into a Selke caliber defensive player, as you seem to indicate with your Yzerman comparison, I'm talking about how becoming a solid all-round player. And that's quite easily within reach.

Some prospects show a two-way or a commitment or talent for it, he hasn't.

He COULD do/be pretty much anything, but expecting to be anything other decent/average is, like expe cting Rielly to become a fear physical player, or Biggs a big time scorer etc... Those things COULD happen, but lets be realistic.

 

[Pi]

There is no reason for him to be on Leafs, and he won't be.

Shanahan is following the Detroit way. Note that in this stretch, he has only called up Marlies scrubs rather than Nylander or Brown.

Don't hold your breath for him being called up.

I am not talking of this season. I believe Nylander will easily make the team next year.

Shielding your players because the team sucks isn't smart. Most teams with high end picks usually suck.

Holding him back won't do him any good if he does well at training camp.

 

[Joey Hoser]

I still think my policy of "play him if he's ready, send him back if he's not" is a reasonable approach.

According to this place that's crazy-talk.

 

[Bullseye]

I am not talking of this season. I believe Nylander will easily make the team next year.

Shielding your players because the team sucks isn't smart. Most teams with high end picks usually suck.

Holding him back won't do him any good if he does well at training camp.

Completely false - the exact opposite is true. Development doesn't speed up because the parent club is a complete mess. Has never worked never will.

 

[silentbob37*]

The Detroit way has nothing to do with prospect call-ups as they call up prospects from time to time before they ever stick with the club. The Detroit model is that players stick when they are ready to stick not before and not after.

But also that prospects need to be at a certain place physically and mentally, and they need to know the Wings systems and styles inside and out, which simply takes 2-3 years worth of AHL experience. Their prospects aren't ready until they are 22-23-24 because the Red Wings demand a high level of their young players and a 18-19-20-21 year old simply won't be able to make the cut.

Its unlikely that Nylander will be as physically or mentally mature as an adult in the next 1-2 years. Given that we don't know who the coach will be, its pretty much impossible that he'll know the Leafs style and systems inside and out int he next 1-2+ years.

 

[Shwaguy*]

And he's saying at the same age Lindholm/Forsberg did not show the talent for it. Simple.

I will say Nylander is better defensively at Centre (Much so) based on his talents with his stick alone. While he may never be a stud defensive zone coverage type player I certainly seeing creating a tonne of turnovers with his stick in the future.

Also people see your side of the arguments always, and they usually make sense in some form.

But it makes NO sense to say "We can't do this with him" or "He won't be able to that" Because he very well could be too good to not be in the NHL next year. Or he could very well have a good 2way game.

People said Kadri was terrible at 2way hockey up til last year and now he's proven to have become a very capable defensive centre. He showed a penchant to throw big hits but never really stunning 2 way play.

 

[Pi]

But also that prospects need to be at a certain place physically and mentally, and they need to know the Wings systems and styles inside and out, which simply takes 2-3 years worth of AHL experience. Their prospects aren't ready until they are 22-23-24 because the Red Wings demand a high level of their young players and a 18-19-20-21 year old simply won't be able to make the cut.

It has nothing to do with age. Detroit hasn't drafted top 10 in a long long time.

If they draft a player like Nylander, I highly doubt he would be in the AHL till he's 22-23-24.

The players they draft are usually highly skilled that need work on most other parts of their games (i.e project picks like Mantha).

You can follow the Detroit model with Connor Brown but not Nylander.

 

[Shwaguy*]

And then you argue that well it's stupid to believe that COULD happen, that's just semantics because you like to argue.

There are ifs for every single player. If we aim to develop a 2way game for him, it should be so.

 

[Vexed]

Completely false - the exact opposite is true. Development doesn't speed up because the parent club is a complete mess. Has never worked never will.

Islanders, Pittsburgh, Chicago and LA among others might say otherwise

Not judging each player individually is the obvious mistake a team can make

 

[silentbob37*]

And he's saying at the same age Lindholm/Forsberg did not show the talent for it. Simple.

I will say Nylander is better defensively at Centre (Much so) based on his talents with his stick alone. While he may never be a stud defensive zone coverage type player I certainly seeing creating a tonne of turnovers with his stick in the future.

Also people see your side of the arguments always, and they usually make sense in some form.

But it makes NO sense to say "We can't do this with him" or "He won't be able to that" Because he very well could be too good to not be in the NHL next year. Or he could very well have a good 2way game.

People said Kadri was terrible at 2way hockey up til last year and now he's proven to have become a very capable defensive centre. He showed a penchant to throw big hits but never really stunning 2 way play.

Neither did Kessel, and look at how great defensivel yhe became. Simple.

I've actually said the opposite of "we can't do this him" or "he won't be able too", what I've said is that its not reasonable to expect him to be a good two-way player based on everything we know of him. Just like its not impossible for Biggs to be a 20 goal NHL player, but its unreasonable to expect it of him.

 

[Shwaguy*]

Show me all the 1Cs in the NHL who were first round picks who weren't in the NHL until 21 or 22

 

[William Hylander]

The Detroit way has nothing to do with prospect call-ups as they call up prospects from time to time before they ever stick with the club. The Detroit model is that players stick when they are ready to stick not before and not after.

The Detroit way is to have very good NHL teams, and have it difficult for young players to crack the team right away because of a stacked roster.

Unfortunately the leafs have not had this setting for a long time. If Nylander plays better than the scrubs then he has to stay up.

 

[Shwaguy*]

Neither did Kessel, and look at how great defensivel yhe became. Simple.

I've actually said the opposite of "we can't do this him" or "he won't be able too", what I've said is that its not reasonable to expect him to be a good two-way player based on everything we know of him. Just like its not impossible for Biggs to be a 20 goal NHL player, but its unreasonable to expect it of him.

It's reasonable to expect it's possible. It would have been reasonable to expect the same of Kessel at the same age too, just because it's reasonable doesn't mean it's gonna happen.

The fact that you'd get upset and feel the need to tell us we're wrong "Because it's not reasonable!!!1one!" is dumb. YOU don't think it's reasonable. When in fact it is well within reason that Nylander could develop a good two way game (As to your to address my example of Kadri/Lindholm/Forsberg btw, you can always find exceptions, Kessel is arguably the exception to the rule in that his defensive game never developed at all. Pretty much every player develops defensively with NHL experience.)

 

[Vexed]

But also that prospects need to be at a certain place physically and mentally, and they need to know the Wings systems and styles inside and out, which simply takes 2-3 years worth of AHL experience. Their prospects aren't ready until they are 22-23-24 because the Red Wings demand a high level of their young players and a 18-19-20-21 year old simply won't be able to make the cut.

Its unlikely that Nylander will be as physically or mentally mature as an adult in the next 1-2 years. Given that we don't know who the coach will be, its pretty much impossible that he'll know the Leafs style and systems inside and out int he next 1-2+ years.

Detroit has consistently fielded a team of veterans that young players need to be better than to make the team. You can't make a "Detroit" model from scratch you need to have a quality NHL squad before you can keep kids down longer. Its detrimental to artificially keep kids down. You can't have a kid come to camp, school everybody consistently and send him back without breaking his will or desire to play for you.

We don't know where he will be next season so its impossible to say what we should do

 

[studebaker17]

If he is, then don't texpect to see him for another 2-3-4 years.



Why?



Some prospects show a two-way or a commitment or talent for it, he hasn't.

He COULD do/be pretty much anything, but expecting to be anything other decent/average is, like expe cting Rielly to become a fear physical player, or Biggs a big time scorer etc... Those things COULD happen, but lets be realistic.

Apples and Oranges comparing a very different Detroit team to the Leafs. Detroit hasn't had a player as good as Nylander is at his age since Yzerman . Zetterberg was pretty good but not that good and for 25 yrs Detroit has had a team that's tough to break onto.

 

[Shwaguy*]

Also Nylander/Rielly et all are better as Prospects than any Prospect detroit has had out of the draft in forever (Zetts/Dats but they were unknowns at the time and in this day and age would almost certainly have been top 3 picks imo)