Speculation: Nylander contract discussion

[Gallagbi]

or you can prove him wrong.

I tried calling Wilson, but he didn't pick up.

 

[MyBudJT]

Larkin went from 32 points to 63 points, that is not better than 2 61 point seasons not by a long shot.

There is a chart posted a few pages back that showed Matthews away from nylander is worse than nylander away from Matthews in shots for and against and obviously together they are far better. Matthews does not carry nylander its a fact and using that as the crux of an argument is stupid, not saying you are stupid im saying using that is stupid.

Last year nylander's pp unit missed Matthews (for 20 games) and had leo komarov on it and even marleau was ice cold on the pp for long stretches. Even connor brown got some time on it, 28 point connor brown!. How can you expect nylander and gardiner to carry all of that between just the 2 of them. this year komarov appears like he may be replaced by kadri if the units are evenly split.

some of those players progressed to nylander's level in their progression how can you think that is better, unless you think nylander has peaked at 22 I know you don't think that.

Ehlers (nylanders perfect comparable) 38, 64, 60 points actually went backwards unlike nylander staying the same in year 3 although added 4 goals to his total

Pastrnak (nylanders top end comparable) 27, 26, 70 and 80 points obviously progression there and 2 30 goal seasons.

Larkin (not really comparable different position) 45, 32, 63 points regression in year 2 before progression to Nylanders 2 full seasons. only one 20 goal season as well

You don’t get it, do you? For young players, what they did a couple years ago is only relevant in the aspect of ‘did they improve’. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS... okay, I was thinking of Metallica there... not much more matters... Young plyers should be improving...

If you want to look back at rookie seasons, you’re forgetting Matthews didn’t need Nylander... in fact, he improved with Brown on the wing. Nylander has never improved his production away from Matthews...

Two 60 point seasons is better than one 50 point season and a 60 point season, it's sort of weird even having to say that. I think it's the illusion of progress and stagnation.

Lets say this is the situation between two different players
Player A
Year 1 30 points, year 2 40 points, year 3 50 points

Player B
Year 1 60 points, year 2 50 point, year 3 60 points

Would you rather player A or B?

More context is needed here!

the fact is they hit it off together when they started and very quickly became an elite duo, and rightfully have been together ever since.

Not exactly. Like I mentioned Matthews has improved Production with Brown before

 

[Walshy7]

You don’t get it, do you? For young players, what they did a couple years ago is only relevant in the aspect of ‘did they improve’. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS... okay, I was thinking of Metallica there... not much more matters... Young plyers should be improving...

If you want to look back at rookie seasons, you’re forgetting Matthews didn’t need Nylander... in fact, he improved with Brown on the wing. Nylander has never improved his production away from Matthews...



More context is needed here!



Not exactly. Like I mentioned Matthews has improved Production with Brown before

Matthews had a 13 game goaless streak with Brown in the 1st year, and if you look at last year when with brown his scoring significantly dropped away from nylander.

 

[hotpaws]

Sound childish.

what's childish ?

- that you almost always here a player say they could have signed for more accompanied with the typical rumor of team x offering a larger deal

or

- that Willie should use the same tactic to justify what he's asking for

JT may or may not have been offered substantially more than what he signed here for but it still doesn't change the fact he didn't take a sub market deal considering he's the second highest paid player in the league

also if you think MNM won't be pissed/resentful if they're getting squeezed by mgmt to take a sub market level deal just because mgmt decided to sign a ufa to a huge deal you're being naive

 

[hotpaws]

Matthews had a 13 game goaless streak with Brown in the 1st year, and if you look at last year when with brown his scoring significantly dropped away from nylander.

also when Willie gets dropped from AM's line he usually plays limited mins on the 4th line

 

[diceman934]

maybe someone can post a link where Wilson said he offered 13m per because i have yet to see anything come out of the Sharks organization about what they offered and all i've heard is the standard "he took less money" line you here after every high priced ufa signs

Willie's agent should get a rumored floated that he's been offered a 10.5 m x 7 yr offer sheet but likes Toronto and wants to give them a home team discount so he'll sign for the discounted rate of 8.5 m x 8 yrs". So basically the "JT discount" .

Lol. You either have an offer sheet or he does not and at 10.5 x7 years that would get the Leafs 4 first round picks and I highly doubt a contender has that much cap space so a bottom feeeder team the picks could all be top 5 picks.

The leafs are not going to sign him for 8.5 or anything close to that amount.

 

[inthe6ix]

Pastrnak signed in mid-Sept last year, can't see Nylander negotiating any longer than that.

 

[DarkKnight]

Reilly makes 5 mil a year, a top 2/4 D man. The cap has gone up since, does anyone really think Willie has accomplished more than Morgan when he signed, and if you add a million annually because the salary cap has gone up, would that be insulting? 6 million a year is great for Willie at this stage of his career, if a million more than Reilly is hardball, throw the heat Kyle.

As for the Tavares angle, everyone in that room is ecstatic to have him and fully understand you overpay to land the big RFA, if you think there will be resentment you're naive, not to mention other words.

 

[MyBudJT]

Reilly makes 5 mil a year, a top 2/4 D man. The cap has gone up since, does anyone really think Willie has accomplished more than Morgan when he signed, and if you add a million annually because the salary cap has gone up, would that be insulting? 6 million a year is great for Willie at this stage of his career, if a million more than Reilly is hardball, throw the heat Kyle.

As for the Tavares angle, everyone in that room is ecstatic to have him and fully understand you overpay to land the big RFA, if you think there will be resentment you're naive, not to mention other words.

I’ve been using the Rielly example a little bit, but have yet to hear a valid argument as to why Nylander deserves more cap%... Rielly was our #1D... Nylander is arguably our 5th best forward...

Before using external comparables, you should be using internal ones.

 

[TeamBester]

They also know what a hierarchy is. JT is far more important to the Leafs than Nylander or Marner.

 

[Liminality]

I’ve been using the Rielly example a little bit, but have yet to hear a valid argument as to why Nylander deserves more cap%... Rielly was our #1D... Nylander is arguably our 5th best forward...

Before using external comparables, you should be using internal ones.

Rielly was poised for a breakout year when he was signing that contract but he didn't accomplish as much as he did last season.

April 13, 2016 is when he signed his contract.

These were his seasons beforehand.

2013-2014

Toronto Maple Leafs

NHL

73

2

25

27

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2014-2015

Toronto Maple Leafs

NHL

81

8

21

29

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2015-2016

Toronto Maple Leafs

NHL

82

9

27

36

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Rielly wasn't a #1 D when we signed him and Nylander is already a first line winger, different situations.

Btw there's no way you get Nylander to 7% of the cap on a 6+ year deal.

 

[MyBudJT]

Rielly was poised for a breakout year when he was signing that contract but he didn't accomplish as much as he did last season.

April 13, 2016 is when he signed his contract.

These were his seasons beforehand.

2013-2014

Toronto Maple Leafs

NHL

73

2

25

27

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2014-2015

Toronto Maple Leafs

NHL

81

8

21

29

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2015-2016

Toronto Maple Leafs

NHL

82

9

27

36

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Rielly wasn't a #1 D when we signed him and Nylander is already a first line winger, different situations.

Btw there's no way you get Nylander to 7% of the cap on a 6+ year deal.

I didn’t say he was a #1, I said he was our #1 D... and Nylander right now is barely a 1W... he’s more like a quality 2W

 

[Liminality]

I didn’t say he was a #1, I said he was our #1 D... and Nylander right now is barely a 1W... he’s more like a quality 2W

He led our d core in icetime in 2015-16 but Phaneuf was our #1 when he was here in Rielly's other two years.

 

[MyBudJT]

He led our d core in icetime in 2015-16 but Phaneuf was our #1 when he was here in Rielly's other two years.

Lol... okay... I said Rielly was our #1D when he signed his contract... so you agree then?

 

[Orfieus]

I’ve been using the Rielly example a little bit, but have yet to hear a valid argument as to why Nylander deserves more cap%... Rielly was our #1D... Nylander is arguably our 5th best forward...

Before using external comparables, you should be using internal ones.

That is not how contract negotiations work.
Each player has a value and that value is based on the market and the market is determined by other players contract

 

[MyBudJT]

That is not how contract negotiations work.
Each player has a value and that value is based on the market and the market is determined by other players contract

For UFAs, sure... but RFAs don’t have the same level of leverage

 

[Walshy7]

I’ve been using the Rielly example a little bit, but have yet to hear a valid argument as to why Nylander deserves more cap%... Rielly was our #1D... Nylander is arguably our 5th best forward...

Before using external comparables, you should be using internal ones.

Reilly’s a dman who signed before he was a 1d meanwhile nylander is a 1w Argie all you want about position (d clearly more important) rielly was coming off a year where he wasn’t even clearly our 2nd best d on a shit d core. Nylander just finished the year 3rd best forward on a top forward core

 

[MyBudJT]

Reilly’s a dman who signed before he was a 1d meanwhile nylander is a 1w Argie all you want about position (d clearly more important) rielly was coming off a year where he wasn’t even clearly our 2nd best d on a **** d core. Nylander just finished the year 3rd best forward on a top forward core

Who was better than Rielly in 2015-2016? He was literally our best player that season.

Tavares, Matthews, Marner and arguably Kadri are currently better/more important than Nylander (for this coming season)

 

[PromisedLand]

Toronto Maple Leafs: William Nylander Contract Projection

seems reasonable but is this really going to work out?

Also read another article that said Fridge was mentioning that Dubas is trying to get all the big three signed at the same time and is probably going to use "tavares taking a pay cut" to show how the big three can also do that......

 

[tokiih]

Who was better than Rielly in 2015-2016? He was literally our best player that season.

Tavares, Matthews, Marner and arguably Kadri are currently better/more important than Nylander (for this coming season)

You could argue Andersen is more important than any forward. So no new contracts above $5M then?

 

[Walshy7]

Who was better than Rielly in 2015-2016? He was literally our best player that season.

Tavares, Matthews, Marner and arguably Kadri are currently better/more important than Nylander (for this coming season)

yeah was just about to edit i was looking at the wrong year my bad.

In any case it really doesnt matter because a dman and winger arent comparables, not even leafs management would try and argue that a dman signing for $5M in 2016 is the same as a winger singing in 2018

 

[MyBudJT]

You could argue Andersen is more important than any forward. So no new contracts above $5M then?

That’s not what I said...

Edit: to elaborate, I think you should use internal comparisons before external... I’m not saying you don’t weigh external sources, but internal examples should be weighted more heavily.

 

[MyBudJT]

yeah was just about to edit i was looking at the wrong year my bad.

In any case it really doesnt matter because a dman and winger arent comparables, not even leafs management would try and argue that a dman signing for $5M in 2016 is the same as a winger singing in 2018

So you don’t think Herman’s signing was influenced by Stamkos?

Dam auto correct. Hedman

 

[tokiih]

That’s not what I said...

Edit: to elaborate, I think you should use internal comparisons before external... I’m not saying you don’t weigh external sources, but internal examples should be weighted more heavily.

No but you want to compare Rielly's contract with Nylander's upcoming contract. It makes about the same amount of sense to me.

Edit: Sure. There's some merit to an internal cap structure. I'm not denying that. But then you'll have to compare the same positions and players at roughly the same development. So in Nylander's case his closest comparable would be Marner. Granted Marner will have another year to boost his numbers but I doubt anyone would say he isn't worth $6M+ right now?

 

[DarkKnight]

Rielly was poised for a breakout year when he was signing that contract but he didn't accomplish as much as he did last season.

April 13, 2016 is when he signed his contract.

These were his seasons beforehand.

2013-2014

Toronto Maple Leafs

NHL

73

2

25

27

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2014-2015

Toronto Maple Leafs

NHL

81

8

21

29

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2015-2016

Toronto Maple Leafs

NHL

82

9

27

36

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Rielly wasn't a #1 D when we signed him and Nylander is already a first line winger, different situations.

Btw there's no way you get Nylander to 7% of the cap on a 6+ year deal.

Rielly was thought to be sure top 4, possible top 2, which is all I said with the comparable. You could easily argue that Nylander is our fifth best forward, so "top line" really isn't the full story. We did pay Reilly finished product money, we didn't pay Kadri finished product money, why should we with Willie?

Just like to add, when we have these debates, you look like you're bashing the guy, which is unfortunate. We're talking about giving Willie a 6 x 8 deal here, hardly a giant slight or insulting like the defence of some here suggests. He's not getting franchise player type cash, we can't do it with our pecking order, and he doesn't deserve it yet, just like Morgan and Nazem before him. I don't give a rats ass what other teams have over paid, there is a new realization coming that you have to play hardball with your young RFA's. It's a business, and Nylander is going to do just fine.