NY voters to decide on plan for new hockey arena (Islanders); UPD referendum defeated

[KevFu]

Is that you Elsie Scruggs? Some recommended reading for you... http://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/product/Field-of-Schemes,673388.aspx

I don't need to read that, because I'm not a dirty hippie. Do sports owners suck funds from taxpayers for their own personal gain? Of course. Should that money go towards things that our society actually needs much more than a sports team? Absolutely.

But at the end of the day, if your city doesn't foot the bill, someone else's city will. Minnesota, Winnipeg and Quebec found that out the hard way. New York learned from the Brooklyn Dodgers and New York baseball Giants. Cleveland and Baltimore found out it was true when the Browns and Colts left.


And the real reason no one has any amount of noble sympathy for the taxpayers in all of this is because they had a guy who was willing to build the arena himself at no expense to the taxpayer. All they had to do was rubber stamp his project and he'd turn a parking lot into a commerce hub that made money for everyone.

 

[LadyStanley]

Better

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=566663&cmpid=rss-News in English

The New York Islanders took an important step forward Wednesday toward their goal of getting a new arena that will allow them to stay on Long Island.

Nassau County Executive Edward P. Mangano announced that the county has reached a lease agreement in its plans to create a state-of-the-art sports-entertainment destination center at the Hub in Nassau County that retains Long Island's only major professional sports team through 2045 should residents approve building a new arena at the site of Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum.
...
According to an independent economic impact analysis conducted by Camoin Associates, a nationally recognized firm in public and private sector economic development, the agreement will generate $1.2 billion. This revenue will be used to pay off the $350 million in construction costs associated with the new arena, $433 million in debt service payments and provide an additional $403 million for the County to hold the line on property taxes. Furthermore, Camoin Associates estimates the creation of 1,515 new jobs during the arena construction phase and the creation of 3,040 permanent jobs beginning in the first year the arena is operational.
...
Under the terms of this agreement, County taxpayers are guaranteed 11.5 percent of dollars generated at the new arena from all events -- not just Islander games. According to Camoin Associates independent report, this revenue sharing requirement, coupled with sales, hotel, and entertainment taxes generated from the new arena will produce over $28.2 million to Nassau County in the first year. The projected amount of revenue to Nassau County is expected to grow in subsequent years. With debt service payments fixed at approximately $26 million annually, Camoin Associates projects the new arena would generate the dollars needed to pay off this debt and an additional profit of over $400 million during the 30-year lease term. Residents will continue to receive millions in revenue without debt service payments; similar to paying off your mortgage and renting your home while keeping all income associated with that rental property.

The construction of a new arena will retain and create significant employment opportunities for the residents of Nassau County. According to the independent report issued by Camoin Associates, the project will create a total of 1,515 construction jobs and generate $121 million in wage earnings during the construction phase. After the construction phase, it is estimated that 3,040 permanent jobs will be created with $138.8 million in new wage earnings.

 

[IceAce]

Very encouraging presentation today on the plan for the arena, lease, etc. Of course the Dems in Nassau will be all over it if for nothing else but the fact that it was sponsored by Republicans and it's not the Lighthouse, but such is life in NY politics I guess.

 

[knorthern knight]

I don't need to read that, because I'm not a dirty hippie.

This is what I don't understand. I'm a lifelong small-c conservative. When it's a big social-engineering subsidized housing project, the lib-left is all in favour, and that conservative-right is against it. Yet when it's governement welfare for Olympics/major-league-sports/World's-Fair/etc everbody "changes partners". The "conservative-right" (me excluded) is all for it, and the lib-left is against it.

Do sports owners suck funds from taxpayers for their own personal gain? Of course. Should that money go towards things that our society actually needs much more than a sports team? Absolutely.

But at the end of the day, if your city doesn't foot the bill, someone else's city will.

Better them than us.

 

[Brodie]

Did the come out with any concepts for what the Hub would look like?

 

[Brodie]

some people pray for world peace or an end to hunger

others pray for sports teams to move

 

[IceAce]

some people pray for world peace or an end to hunger

others pray for sports teams to move

"Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

 

[Evil Doctor]

"Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Bwa-ha-ha-ha....

Okay, not really but it's fun to pretend...

 

[KevFu]

This is what I don't understand. I'm a lifelong small-c conservative. When it's a big social-engineering subsidized housing project, the lib-left is all in favour, and that conservative-right is against it. Yet when it's governement welfare for Olympics/major-league-sports/World's-Fair/etc everbody "changes partners". The "conservative-right" (me excluded) is all for it, and the lib-left is against it.

Better them than us.

Basically. It's simple supply and demand. Supply of pro sports teams is very low, demand for them is very high. The idea that sports owners can "hold a city hostage" is very accurate.

I want the government to only fund the essentials: defense (internal and external; military, PD, FD), roads, hospitals, etc. And make the playing field for businesses fair. Give more money to everyone's paychecks and we don't need the government to be our parents.

And the end of the day, I'm a realist. It's not like any government is going to cut out all frivolous spending and scale back to ONLY the essentials and cut taxes.

Winnipeg didn't say "No, we're not going to waste the taxpayer's money on things we don't need. If we lose the Jets because of it, so be it." They said "We're going to fund the Pan-Am bid and not a new NHL arena."

Taking a stand against a rich guy on principle... I'm all for that. But SOME city is going to break ranks and pony up for the team to relocate.

If we're going to have all our governments: Federal, state/province, city/town/etc stop with ridiculous spending, that's super. But since they're not going to stop spending on stupid things, I'd put sports teams near the top of the list over other stupid things. Because a sports team is something that most people in the region have attached their identity to.


And again, Wang was willing to build the thing himself and the politicians blew their chance at that.

 

[knorthern knight]

Basically. It's simple supply and demand. Supply of pro sports teams is very low, demand for them is very high. The idea that sports owners can "hold a city hostage" is very accurate.

That is based on the false idea of that a team can generate some humoungous "hidden benefits" for a city. Beasly+Scruggs seem to have fallen for it, hook, line, and sinker (half-a-billion, etc). Winnipeg did quite nicely without the Jets, thank you.

And again, Wang was willing to build the thing himself and the politicians blew their chance at that.

He was asking for a quid-pro-quo, which the local politicians found unacceptable.

 

[KevFu]

That is based on the false idea of that a team can generate some humoungous "hidden benefits" for a city. Beasly+Scruggs seem to have fallen for it, hook, line, and sinker (half-a-billion, etc). Winnipeg did quite nicely without the Jets, thank you.

Nah, it's based on the true idea that people in cities like their sports teams. And please, what percentage of people in the Winnipeg metro area weren't upset the Jets left?

He was asking for a quid-pro-quo, which the local politicians found unacceptable.

Yes, he was asking for the government to let him use land that currently contains nothing. The land hasn't been used for anything since 1955, except for NVMC parking, which until last year went into the pockets of SMG.

It was deemed "unacceptable" for a myriad of silly reasons. Such as "giving" Wang the land, making the traffic problems worse (uh, fix the traffic problems, using tax revenue from the project), size of buildings (the last ones out of a dying municipality will have a gorgeous view!), and amount of low income housing (if we build more residential spaces, fewer people will leave?).

The closest thing to an argument against having a business man turn land that's turning no profits for anyone into a tax-generating, job creating, home creating, commercial endeavor which also provides a sports arena tax free would be "opportunity cost." But that was pretty much rendered ridiculous by the fact that they've miss the opportunity to do ANYTHING with that land since the 1950s.

 

[1 Timer]

Just so everyone understands this correctly. Fact the Yankees, Mets, Jets/Giants, Devils, Red Bulls all have new facilities that relied on tax payer money with out a vote. MSG pays no taxes on their revenue.
So the Islanders make a deal that gives tax payers a say and pays them back. I don’t get the Newsday and one shouting from the roof tops democrat position. The jobs it creates not just for the building but the business that will get the engine going. This will get the rest of the 77 acres developed soon after that. At least this money goes to a cause that makes the county money.

 

[1 Timer]

Nah, it's based on the true idea that people in cities like their sports teams. And please, what percentage of people in the Winnipeg metro area weren't upset the Jets left?



Yes, he was asking for the government to let him use land that currently contains nothing. The land hasn't been used for anything since 1955, except for NVMC parking, which until last year went into the pockets of SMG.

It was deemed "unacceptable" for a myriad of silly reasons. Such as "giving" Wang the land, making the traffic problems worse (uh, fix the traffic problems, using tax revenue from the project), size of buildings (the last ones out of a dying municipality will have a gorgeous view!), and amount of low income housing (if we build more residential spaces, fewer people will leave?).

The closest thing to an argument against having a business man turn land that's turning no profits for anyone into a tax-generating, job creating, home creating, commercial endeavor which also provides a sports arena tax free would be "opportunity cost." But that was pretty much rendered ridiculous by the fact that they've miss the opportunity to do ANYTHING with that land since the 1950s.

The reason the LHP failed is the low coast housing would have changed the voting demographic from a republican majority to a democratic one! Any other reason is ******** fodder!

 

[WingsOverAvs]

Even though I was born in West Islip and spent the first 6 years of my life practically living at the Coliseum, I dont know that a new building is going to drive droves of people to watch the Islanders. Sad to see a team so rich in tradition struggle like this, but I cant help but wonder if the Islanders are just destined to be the leftovers in a compact Northeast.

 

[IceAce]

Even though I was born in West Islip and spent the first 6 years of my life practically living at the Coliseum, I dont know that a new building is going to drive droves of people to watch the Islanders. Sad to see a team so rich in tradition struggle like this, but I cant help but wonder if the Islanders are just destined to be the leftovers in a compact Northeast.

The building itself wont, a successful team will. But one wont come without the other. We've seen it time and time again. LI has a huge population with a ton of disposable income and they come out in droves any time the Islanders are successful.

 

[KevFu]

Even though I was born in West Islip and spent the first 6 years of my life practically living at the Coliseum, I dont know that a new building is going to drive droves of people to watch the Islanders. Sad to see a team so rich in tradition struggle like this, but I cant help but wonder if the Islanders are just destined to be the leftovers in a compact Northeast.

I think that when the Islanders are out of lease hell, the fans will come back. It might take a little while to get the droves; but the thing that's preventing us from acting like a NY team, spending money, being a first-class organization, and winning, is that damned lease.

Show me another team in one of the massive markets that struggles? The Cubs have a horrible venue for maximizing revenue; the Dodgers and Mets have financial woes now that are not tied to their market (McCourt robbing the Dodgers blind; Mets and the Maddoff mess).

What's the difference between the Mets and Devils from a financial standpoint? The NVMC and it's lease. The Devils make $41 million more in revenue. That comes from their arena: advertising, suites, and concessions. They have more suites, more advertising locations, more points of sale than we do. We even have the bigger TV contract.

Put the Islanders in a new arena, give us $40 million more to play with and we go from crappy leftover, to first-rate.

We can afford a real radio network.
We can afford more scouting.
We can afford to be well above the salary floor and free agents would actually want to sign with us if we were in a good building.
We can offer fans a first-rate entertainment experience instead of a cramped seat/concourse/penny-pinching experience.

 

[Marv4Life]

Just so everyone understands this correctly. Fact the Yankees, Mets, Jets/Giants, Devils, Red Bulls all have new facilities that relied on tax payer money with out a vote. MSG pays no taxes on their revenue.

They weren't relied on taxpayer money. Two-thirds of Prudential was built with the Port Authority settlement the city received and the rest was a Citibank loan from the Devils. Meadowlands Stadium was funded privately from the Giants/Jets.

 

[LadyStanley]

ChrisBottaNHL 7:18am via Web Wall Street Journal's gift to #Isles arena deal opponents: a front-page story on the cost of the Bengals' stadium.

 

[1 Timer]

FAQ
http://islanders.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=568969&navid=DL|NYI|VOTE

 

[drive45]

I hope the Islanders stay put, but it'd be much worse to have the public on the hook for a $400 million dollar bond. Then again, if working people on Long Island are stupid enough to vote in a giant subsidy for a wealthy corporation instead of better schools or hospitals, I suppose they get what they deserve.

It's not a subsidy, it's an investment. Nassau county gets 11.5 % of ALL REVENUE (not just hockey, and not just profits; that also includes any naming rights) The county owns the Coliseum, not NYI. If it is abandonned in the wake of the Isles departure that is the loss of a large county-owned asset. Taxes would almost certainly go up more to make up for that loss than they will if the bond is passed. If the bond vote succeeds, it is estimated that taxes will go up by no more than an average of $60 per household for 3 yrs, until the new Coliseum is finished and the revenue starts to come in.

Anti-Coliseum people seem to think that if the referendum fails, the status quo will go on. It won't. The Coliseum will go down the tubes if it loses its anchor tenant. If the county isn't planning on simply throwing the Coliseum away and replacing it with a vacant lot filled with prostitutes and drug dealers, they should develop the site now while they have this opportunity.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

ChrisBottaNHL 7:18am via Web Wall Street Journal's gift to #Isles arena deal opponents: a front-page story on the cost of the Bengals' stadium.

Well to be fair, they compared Hamilton Co Ohio to four other counties that had built NFL stadiums to make Hamilton Co look incompetent.

My favourite part of the article: "On top of paying for the stadium, Hamilton County granted the Bengals generous lease terms. It agreed to pick up nearly all operating and capital improvement costs—and to foot the bill for high-tech bells and whistles that have yet to be invented, like a "holographic replay machine." No team had snared such concessions in addition to huge sums of public money, Journal research shows."

 

[PhillyFlying]

is relocation the only option if they can't build a new arena in nassau county? is the barclays center in brooklyn an option once it's finished?

 

[OthmarAmmann]

^ I believe Barclay's does not have the requisite holographic replay machine

 

[drive45]

is relocation the only option if they can't build a new arena in nassau county? is the barclays center in brooklyn an option once it's finished?

the word on that that I keep hearing is that no, BK is not an option because of the way it's designed, there would not be enough seats for an nhl team because the design is basketball-specific. I think it is more bowl-shaped, with a steeper incline than dual use facilities. I think they are planning on having hockey, but with less than 15,000 seats. I myself wonder if they stopped construction right away, if they couldn't switch designs. the original architect was Frank Gehry who is famous, Canadian, and a hockey fan. he wanted to make it dual-use, but Ratner didn't like his price tag and got someone else.

 

[saffronleaf]

^ I believe Barclay's does not have the requisite holographic replay machine

lmao