NY voters to decide on plan for new hockey arena (Islanders); UPD referendum defeated

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GreenHornet

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Mar 3, 2011
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Norcross, GA
the word on that that I keep hearing is that no, BK is not an option because of the way it's designed, there would not be enough seats for an nhl team because the design is basketball-specific. I think it is more bowl-shaped, with a steeper incline than dual use facilities. I think they are planning on having hockey, but with less than 15,000 seats.

Seems pretty silly, if they want hockey in the arena, to have a configuration to seat just 15,000. That's enough for a minor league team, but will anybody in Brooklyn really want to see minor-league hockey?

Aside from the New York Rovers, has there ever been minor-league hockey in NYC?
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
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Seems pretty silly, if they want hockey in the arena, to have a configuration to seat just 15,000. That's enough for a minor league team, but will anybody in Brooklyn really want to see minor-league hockey? Aside from the New York Rovers, has there ever been minor-league hockey in NYC?

Actually, as strange as it may sound & seem, the smaller arena of 15,000 is just what the Doctor Ordered for a number of NHL markets in both Canada & the US. This was discussed at length on the Winnipeg threads over the MTS Center, several Sports Marketing Experts advocating for smaller, more compact arenas. For Brooklyn or Long Island for that matter & the Islanders, its actually really quite sensible.

As for minor pro teams in NYC & the Island?.
Plenty more than just Rovers.....

NY Athletic Club - Eastern Hockey League 1933-73
NY Metropolitans - Atlantic Hockey League 1947-56
NY Slapshots - Atlantic Coast Hockey League 1981-87
NY Aviators - Federal Hockey League 2010-11

....while on Long Island proper, you had the Long Island Ducks, made famous in the movie Slapshot playing in the old Eastern Hockey League from 1933-1977 and then the Long Island Cougars from 73-77 in the North American Hockey League, a team of 30&40 something year old single women who figured it would be a great way to meet young guys. Vuvuzela concerts n' all. Jersey girls are just the greatest GreenHornet.
 
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GreenHornet

Registered User
Mar 3, 2011
580
387
Norcross, GA
Actually, as strange as it may sound & seem, the smaller arena of 15,000 is just what the Doctor Ordered for a number of NHL markets in both Canada & the US. This was discussed at length on the Winnipeg threads over the MTS Center, several Sports Marketing Experts advocating for smaller, more compact arenas. For Brooklyn or Long Island for that matter & the Islanders, its actually really quite sensible.

As for minor pro teams in NYC & the Island?.
Plenty more than just Rovers.....

NY Athletic Club - Eastern Hockey League 1933-73
NY Metropolitans - Atlantic Hockey League 1947-56
NY Slapshots - Atlantic Coast Hockey League 1981-87
NY Aviators - Federal Hockey League 2010-11

....while on Long Island proper, you had the Long Island Ducks, made famous in the movie Slapshot playing in the old Eastern Hockey League from 1933-1977 and then the Long Island Cougars from 73-77 in the North American Hockey League, a team of 30&40 something year old single women who figured it would be a great way to meet young guys. Vuvuzela concerts n' all. Jersey girls are just the greatest GreenHornet.

It DOES sound strange, but it also make sense for some markets. It's just that I thought the NHL was frowning on buildings of less than 17,000 or so, but I guess with Winnipeg (still makes me sick just thinking about it), the precedent has now been set. Unless they're going to say it's exception and not the rule.

As for the other NYC minors, I should've remember the L.I. Ducks (as big of a fan of Slapshot as I am. That was Hanrahan's team :D).

As to Jersey girls being the greatest, I prefer girls from Queens myself (which is why I married one :D).
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,215
As to Jersey girls being the greatest, I prefer girls from Queens myself (which is why I married one :D).

I consider all of em' from the tri-state right on down to Philly, as far west as Detroit "Jersey Girls". You did good...:thumbu:

But yes, a 15,000 or 16,000 seat arena makes a lot of sense for the NHL brand of hockey in a lot of markets. The smaller, more intimate setting is actually a far better experience IMO. You also have savings in economy of size, along with a competitive edge in attracting non-hockey-related bookings that the behemoths simply cant afford. If seating is "limited", you create demand & thus higher revenues per chair. I think the NHL has found itself in the midst of a philosophical dilemma as a result of this, as their insistence of a go big or go home model has been refuted due to circumstance, empty seats, tarp's.
 

kdb209

Registered User
Jan 26, 2005
14,870
6
So when do we find out if this passed?

I would guess (barring a close vote & recount) we'll find out on Aug 1 - either not long after the polls close (if Newsday or someone does exit polling) or after the first significant returns are reported (maybe about 9 or 10 PM, assuming the polls close at 8).
 

MaskedSonja

Registered User
Feb 3, 2007
6,536
74
Formerly Tinalera
I consider all of em' from the tri-state right on down to Philly, as far west as Detroit "Jersey Girls". You did good...:thumbu:

But yes, a 15,000 or 16,000 seat arena makes a lot of sense for the NHL brand of hockey in a lot of markets. The smaller, more intimate setting is actually a far better experience IMO. You also have savings in economy of size, along with a competitive edge in attracting non-hockey-related bookings that the behemoths simply cant afford. If seating is "limited", you create demand & thus higher revenues per chair. I think the NHL has found itself in the midst of a philosophical dilemma as a result of this, as their insistence of a go big or go home model has been refuted due to circumstance, empty seats, tarp's.

This is what I think Bettman was getting at with the Winnipeg example of maybe having smaller venues that have a better chance of filling out (please note I also realise there's a HUGE difference between NY and Winnipeg), but it wouldn't surprise me going forward as new arenas are built (particularly in "non-traditional" markets) that maybe 15-17 thousand seats max would become the norm.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,215
Aside from the New York Rovers, has there ever been minor-league hockey in NYC?

But dont take my word for it, I see that kdb has dropped bye. Virtual Funk&Wagnals' compendium of hockey knowledge from Jersey to Long Island & Manhattan. His favorite player still being the legendary John Brophy if Im not mistaken.

...that maybe 15-17 thousand seats max would become the norm.

I sure hope your right about that. In the rush to bigger-better so much was lost & left behind. And for what?. A handful of graveyard shekels' & future potentialities that like Frankenstein only came to life long enough to destroy "The Doktor?"...
:frank:
 

OthmarAmmann

Omnishambles
Jul 7, 2010
2,761
0
NYC
NIFA just rejected the county's budget. I have to wonder if that might affect some people's opinion of the proposal.

They should get those cougars out "campaigning".
 

HabsByTheBay

Registered User
Dec 3, 2010
1,216
22
London
I wonder if part of the reason all these teams built 18-19,000 seat arenas was to justify the public money spent on them. I ain't that old and when I was a kid 17,000 was considered a big arena. 19,000 was cavernous.

Saying to taxpayers "We want basically the same size arena, just with more corporate boxes so rich people can drink pinot grigio and not watch the game because it means $$$$" doesn't sound as nice as "We need a bigger arena with more seats to hold great fans like you!!!! (and also more corporate boxes so rich people can drink pinot grigio and not watch the game)".

There's really very few teams that can sustain 19,000 game in game out. Not everywhere is Montreal.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,215
Id suggest the heavier artillery, as in the Panther Brigade Othmar......

NIFA scolded the county for failing to make any changes to their budget from the last version, creating some "Phantom Revenue Streams" for such things as Red Light Camera Tickets & such, the county firing back that theyve cut 1200 jobs etc. Somewhat dysfunctional.

Though they (NIFA) have made no comment on the LightHouse Project, and wont be doing so until after the voters have their say, they did include a statement of facts on the proposed development which is rather interesting. Points 4, 5, 8; and in particular, number 6..... :naughty:

1) Total cost to Nassau County is $800M+ over 30yrs.

2) Taxpayer burden is an increase in property taxes of 3.5-4%.

3) New arena cost is app. $350-375M leaving $25-50M leftover for the rest of the project.

4) Rent from tenant does not cover annual debt service costs to taxpayers.

5) Tenant is exempt from paying taxes on arena & surrounding acreage.

6) Islanders are not listed as original tenant, rather, Arenaco SPE LLC.

7) Surrounding acreage to be leased to tenant under development control of HUB.

8) Tenant pays no rent until all construction is completed.

9) County responsible for all construction costs if tenant goes bankrupt.

It would appear that Charles Wang, like Patrick McGoohan in The Prisoner, whose number was also Six, could find a creative way to escape the Island if things dont pan out to his liking.....
 

MaskedSonja

Registered User
Feb 3, 2007
6,536
74
Formerly Tinalera
Id suggest the heavier artillery, as in the Panther Brigade Othmar......

NIFA scolded the county for failing to make any changes to their budget from the last version, creating some "Phantom Revenue Streams" for such things as Red Light Camera Tickets & such, the county firing back that theyve cut 1200 jobs etc. Somewhat dysfunctional.

Though they (NIFA) have made no comment on the LightHouse Project, and wont be doing so until after the voters have their say, they did include a statement of facts on the proposed development which is rather interesting. Points 4, 5, 8; and in particular, number 6..... :naughty:

1) Total cost to Nassau County is $800M+ over 30yrs.

2) Taxpayer burden is an increase in property taxes of 3.5-4%.

3) New arena cost is app. $350-375M leaving $25-50M leftover for the rest of the project.

4) Rent from tenant does not cover annual debt service costs to taxpayers.

5) Tenant is exempt from paying taxes on arena & surrounding acreage.

6) Islanders are not listed as original tenant, rather, Arenaco SPE LLC.

7) Surrounding acreage to be leased to tenant under development control of HUB.

8) Tenant pays no rent until all construction is completed.

9) County responsible for all construction costs if tenant goes bankrupt.

It would appear that Charles Wang, like Patrick McGoohan in The Prisoner, whose number was also Six, could find a creative way to escape the Island if things dont pan out to his liking.....



The problem with that (unless we are counting the last episode) is that Six was always brought back to the island in some shape or form-so the question is, would it be Wang be "regular series" prisoner, "series finale" prisoner? (Remember it took McGoohan writing the last ep himself in order to make sure he got off island):naughty:
 

1 Timer

Registered User
Aug 23, 2009
1,320
173
Howell, NJ
Gloves comming off!!!

http://nassaucountynewsnetwork.wordpress.com/2011/07/14/angry-developers-strike-out-against-hub-plan/

Seems the main opponent has some splaning to do. FYI ABLI is a lobbyist group.

And now this.

Nassau County's economy could lose $243.4 million annually if the New York Islanders leave the region

http://mobile.newsday.com/inf/infomo;JSESSIONID=DF92D186EAB1CB1F2B84.3124?site=newsday&view=politics_item&feed:a=newsday_1min&feed:c=politics&feed:i=1.3028925


Unlike yesterdays front page negitive tilt this was on pg 16.... I think we know where Newsday stands
 
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drive45

Registered User
Jul 1, 2011
452
0
closer than I appear
Seems pretty silly, if they want hockey in the arena, to have a configuration to seat just 15,000. That's enough for a minor league team, but will anybody in Brooklyn really want to see minor-league hockey?

Aside from the New York Rovers, has there ever been minor-league hockey in NYC?

Yeah, I think they're thinking minor leaugue and college. Is NYU ready to move up to D1? :yo:
 

bigdom1012

Registered User
Jul 12, 2011
168
0
first post on the site, and i figured as a nassau county resident and huge isles fan..id give my input...i dnt think the coliseum will be built at all, nassau is in too much financial trouble and the residents here are sick of the already crazy taxes we pay...not to mention that everyone seems to forget that though yes the vote on aug 1st is important its only a small step because once the vote is passed NIFA has to approve it, and we know damn well they WILL NOT APPROVE THIS...

nassau is in a financial mess and adding this will only add to the confusion and anger of a majority of its residents who could care less for the isles! lets face it most of li dont care about the islanders at all, this is further seen in the adds the isles are posting about the aug 1st vote when there commercials are all saying THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE ISLANDERS...

believe me plenty of people will go out on aug and vote NO because money is the motive even if its a dollar people dont wanna pay more taxes!

sorry but the only persons to blame are the lousy fans and ownership...i blame the fans who only showed up when the team did well or played the rangers, and for the rest of the time just said f'it y bother going, all this did was give ammo to the naysayers and now they can parade and say noone cares anyway the place was always empty when they played...and for the ownership who put such a lousy product on the ice that noone cared to see...i dont believe wang and snow for a minute about players not wanting to play here...this was a tactic to get a new arena when wang saw the lighthouse falling apart

he just blamed the arena for the poor roster and performance....BS...it was the circus show of snow as manager and horrible coaching the kept players away!

its a double edged sword and in the end us diehard fans will lose!

but there is a light at the end of this tunnel...and its a bout 20 min from the coliseum....and its called suffolk county( we all seem to forget bout them) and they have made it known they would be happy to have the isles!
 

OthmarAmmann

Omnishambles
Jul 7, 2010
2,761
0
NYC
but there is a light at the end of this tunnel...and its a bout 20 min from the coliseum....and its called suffolk county( we all seem to forget bout them) and they have made it known they would be happy to have the isles!

I haven't really followed this too closely. Where in Suffolk exactly? I feel being conveniently located to the LIRR would be helpful in attracting more people from Brooklyn, Queens, and the city.
 

bigdom1012

Registered User
Jul 12, 2011
168
0
I haven't really followed this too closely. Where in Suffolk exactly? I feel being conveniently located to the LIRR would be helpful in attracting more people from Brooklyn, Queens, and the city.

im not sure were in suffolk this would be but, there was a report i believe from newsday, when the wang gave his deadline for nassau on the lighthouse project, steve levy the county executive from suffolk said that he be more than happy to work out a deal with the islanders and keep them on long island in suffolk
 

kdb209

Registered User
Jan 26, 2005
14,870
6
Might as well post this here than dig up one of the old Barclays Center threads.

NY Times piece on the construction of the Barclays Center and the controversies surrounding the rest of the Atlantic Yards development.

It reiterates that the current design will not support an NHL ice sheet.

Given that construction is now well under way, it seems a pretty safe bet that that ship has sailed - and Brooklyn is not a possible option for the Isles.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/19/nyregion/atlantic-yards-arena-begins-taking-shape.html

The new design from SHoP Architects and Ellerbe Becket for the arena, the Barclays Center, which the British bank will pay nearly $400 million to name, is smaller (it no longer has room for National Hockey League-size ice) and simpler than the Frank Gehry design that was scrapped because of the cost. About half of its 18,000 seats will be sunk below street level, and people walking past the arena will be able to look in and view the scoreboard suspended over the court.
 

nyrmetros

Registered User
May 3, 2007
5,965
173
It's stupid for a modern arena not to support an NHL sized rink. Minor league hockey could have done well in BKLN.
 

Space Herpe

Arch Duke of Raleigh
Aug 29, 2008
7,117
0
Seems pretty silly, if they want hockey in the arena, to have a configuration to seat just 15,000. That's enough for a minor league team, but will anybody in Brooklyn really want to see minor-league hockey?

Aside from the New York Rovers, has there ever been minor-league hockey in NYC?

It seems pretty silly to me not to have that degree of forward thinking. It might've been better in the long run to plan for the arena to be able to hold an NHL sized rink (or even bigger.)
 
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