Post-Game Talk: November 8 Jets @ Sens: How not to win a shootout!

[booger]

Us:

Bonk:

Us:

 

[booger]

I'm not saying Greening or Michalek or Legwand were good or bad choices.

I'm saying if you're giving me a choice between "the coach probably sees these guys practice this stuff", and these kinds of responses...













... then I'll take the former, instead of the latter.

It's one thing to question the motives of a coach for the decisions he makes, but it's another thing entirely to make some of the desperately sad & ****ing awful character statements some posters around here make.

Was Greening a bad choice? Probably, yeah. Is Maclean a "fool" or a "moron", or... wait, let me go check the GDT for some more ****ing GEMS of posts we had over there:
- "****ing idiot"
- "you were an idiot"
- "MacLean is a ****ing moron."
- "Your a ****ing incompetent fool"
- "MacLean is a moron."
- "Complete and utter incompetency."

... and so on, and so forth?

My entire point was: Maclean obviously made the choices for a reason. Maybe Greening was KILLING it in practice on shootout attempts for like weeks on end. Also: Legwand is historically actually pretty good in shootouts... did anyone ever care to look at his career numbers in Nashville? Spoiler alert: it's 33%. Know what the baseline average for shootout attempts for shooters in the NHL is? ~32%.

Michalek's average is about 28%... lower than average, which is maybe why he wasn't picked for the top 3?

Anyone know what MacArthur's shootout record is? Since 2006, it's 0%. He's gone 0/13, playing with 4 different teams in that span.


What I'm saying here... how many people who called Maclean "a moron" bothered to do even a tiny amount of fact checking. You know how long it took me to find those stats? 5 minutes. If that. How many people who called him "an idiot" knows Hoffman went 1/4 in shootouts last year in the AHL for Binghamton? And that he went 1/4 the year before that for Bingo? And 1/4 the year before that? And 2/6 in his rookie year. His career MINOR LEAGUE record is 5/18 - that's ~27%, which is below NHL standards... and that's against AHL caliber goaltending.

Like, c'mon. I hate the shootout as much as the next guy, but at least I can separate the Rob Schremp Memorial Skills Event from a player's talent in a 60-minute game. Players who are excellent 60-minute guys can be balls-awful at the shootout, and vice versa: guys who couldn't play a regular shift to save their lives can sometimes be irregularly excellent at it.

I'm not saying we can't criticize the coach, but I CERTAINLY AS HELL WILL NOT be throwing him under the bus by saying he's a moron. He has stats at his disposal that I guarantee 90% of posters here didn't bother to check. He sees guys in closed practices that I guarantee 99% of posters here can't see. He's privy to information that posters here both don't have access to, and don't bother to access. What I'm saying here is: if we're going to have this discussion, let's have it in earnest and be honest about the context, and not have the typical HFSens Pile On(TM). You want to say Maclean made bad decisions in choosing the shooters? I'M TOTALLY OK WITH THAT. You want to say that Maclean is a moron, or an idiot, because he made an educated guess based on some context that he had (whether it be historical stats - which actually somewhat justify his choices - , or something he saw in practice, or whether they had advanced scouting on Pavelec - for example "he's weak high blocker side, let's get our best high blocker side shooters", or some other info we may not be privy to), well, yeah. I have a problem with that.

I'm all for challenging the coaches decisions, but I guarantee that the pile on here is unwarranted. Like, I just gave you some raw numbers. Maybe we can't trust those numbers, because of some other reason? Great, let's discuss that. At least let's argue some facts, instead of "OMFG, COACH SUXEZ". Maclean clearly had reasons for choosing the guys he did tonight, he didn't just open a fortune cookie that said "MICHALEK GREENING LEGWAND" and decided that to hell with it, I'm doing what the cookie told me to. Maybe they were bad decisions, and I think with HINDSIGHT we can say that they were... but right there, I gave you SOME rationale for the decisions, and I don't even see these guys practice. Legwand is historically FAR better in the shootout than MacArthur. Hoffman has a lower shooting percentage against minor league goaltending than the NHL average against NHL goaltending. Bang. There you go: 2 possible reasons to have made the choices he did. Were they the right choices? Maybe. Maybe not. But at least the decision, in SOME CONTEXT, makes a bit of sense.

If all a poster is going to do is call the coach a moron, and fall back on the "MMWEEEHHH, HE'S SO BAD AND ANY IDIOT CAN SEE IT" argument, and not even care to know any of the background, or consider that these decisions are made with SOME context, then I don't know what to do other than interpret the claim of the coach being a moron to be nothing other than hot air.


Also, for the record: That was Greening's 1st ever NHL shootout attempt. Use that information as you will.

Way too logical for this board.

 

[Benjamin]

Boro, Gryba and Cowen have all stepped it up. Boro can turn into Matt Carkner 2.0

Boro is already better than Carkner.

 

[BonkTastic]

Boro is already better than Carkner.

I'll second this.

Carkner was more of a heavyweight than Boro will probably ever be, but Boro has been the more effective player while filling the same role.

 

[NyQuil]

Bunch of HF posters, who never see the team practicing or see guys practice their shootout moves... vs an NHL coach who sees that **** every day for over 3 years.

Yeah, I'm siding with the coach. Sorry, majority of HFSens. Can't join the mob on this one.

I'd agree with you if I saw something resembling a "move".

 

[Sens Rule]

I'll second this.

Carkner was more of a heavyweight than Boro will probably ever be, but Boro has been the more effective player while filling the same role.

I doubt if due to injuries Carkner would ever have been paired with Karlsson. But then I never thought Boro would be either.

Going on the track of "reason". This team has everyone playing well. The entire team. Every single player in most every single game. And there is still tons of negativity all over these boards. 3 games out of 13 we didn't get a point in. And we lost 2 of them by a goal. We went offensive chance for chance vs Chicago and Detroit. We freaking literally owned the entire first period vs Detroit. That could have been the best period of hockey the Senators organization has ever played!
We aren't a stacked team. We are the most inexperienced team in the NHL, near the youngest, and we have the lowest cap payroll in the entire league. And we are actually a good team! We are surprisingly able to score more then anticipated. Our defence has been solid and deep. Our goaltenders otherworldly. 7-3-3.

And we still have fans talking about tanking for McDavid. Sigh

 

[BonkTastic]

And we still have fans talking about tanking for McDavid. Sigh

But if we tank for McDavid, then we can be a good team, like the Oilers.

 

[Benjamin]

But if we tank for McDavid, then we can be a good team, like the Oilers.

Or Tampa.

 

[Lenny the Lynx]

I think the thing with the shootout was pavelec was so on his game MacLean was trying to throw wild cards at him. Didn't work but it wasn't a bad plan

But that said if we found out MacLean was involved in a gambling scandal and that was his way of throwing a shootout the list would also make sense

 

[Sens Rule]

I think the thing with the shootout was pavelec was so on his game MacLean was trying to throw wild cards at him. Didn't work but it wasn't a bad plan

But that said if we found out MacLean was involved in a gambling scandal and that was his way of throwing a shootout the list would also make sense

The only guy that didn't make sense was Greening. And even that made sense in terms of throwing a bone to the guy at the end of the bench who barely gets to play.

Legwand and Michalek have taken tons of shootouts in their career.

I was surprised that Greening shot. I was not surprised that fans here were criticizing Neil being on the PP, despite the only goal we scored was by Neil on the PP. That baffles me. A few minutes after the game the coach is ripped for his decision that led to us earning a point? Hmmm

 

[Benjamin]

I think the thing with the shootout was pavelec was so on his game MacLean was trying to throw wild cards at him. Didn't work but it wasn't a bad plan

But that said if we found out MacLean was involved in a gambling scandal and that was his way of throwing a shootout the list would also make sense

Greening a wild card? Im guessing Pavelec was pretty happy to see Greening get the chance.

 

[kilroy]

I think the thing with the shootout was pavelec was so on his game MacLean was trying to throw wild cards at him. Didn't work but it wasn't a bad plan

But that said if we found out MacLean was involved in a gambling scandal and that was his way of throwing a shootout the list would also make sense

Or MAYBE you should read Bonktastic's post a couple of pages back instead of implying criminal behaviour.

For me, I was more astounded that two of the first three shooters MISSED THE NET! How is that anyone but the shooters' fault?

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Not really.

I've seen a lot of great "practice players" over the years. Guys who look like superstars with their dangles and moves in an empty practice arena....who then look like dog poop in real games.

From the eye test, guys who are having a good game that night generally have high success in the shootout.

Picking guys based on old stats - particularly for a shootout where numbers are incredibly volatile - isn't really a recipe for success.

 

[King EK65]

Every game I've watched this season, Sens have won. Didn't watch yesterday. Crap!

At least we got a point against a western conference team. We need to win the Leafs today though.

 

[BonkTastic]

Picking guys based on old stats - particularly for a shootout where numbers are incredibly volatile - isn't really a recipe for success.

Well, regardless of whether or not I agree with you or not, at least this is a tangible debate we can have that is based on something other than contempt and anger.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Every game I've watched this season, Sens have won. Didn't watch yesterday. Crap!

At least we got a point against a western conference team. We need to win the Leafs today though.

It's all your fault!

You'd better be watching the Laffs game today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kilroy]

Take a look at shootout stats and which shooters were used yesterday, and it's pretty obvious that Maclean was actually doing EXACTLY THE RIGHT THING.

By the time Greening was selected, the remaining shooters ALL were terrible in the shootout. Greening had never even attempted one before. So, when given the choice between someone who's demonstrated the inability to score on the shootout vs an unknown, I know which is the sensible choice.

The only conclusion that's remotely reasonable is that this entire TEAM sucks at shootouts, which is nothing new.

 

[BonkTastic]

The only conclusion that's remotely reasonable is that this entire TEAM sucks at shootouts, which is nothing new.

I think this, while not a comfort to losing games in the shootout, might be more true than some might want to admit to.

The shootout still sucks. If there's a silver lining to the whole shootout debacle, it's that playoff games are still decided by honest-to-goodness, 200-ft hockey.

 

[Stylizer1]

I dare someone to go and make a thread on the main boards about how we are the only team in the nhl who have not lost in regulation at home.

I'm on it chief.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Anyone else enjoy the hell out of Karlssons hip check on Kane on that offside? Don't know why I enjoyed that so much.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I'm on it chief.

Nooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't put a bad karma spell on the team right before playing Toronto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pride before a fall, dude.

 

[pepty]

Anyone else enjoy the hell out of Karlssons hip check on Kane on that offside? Don't know why I enjoyed that so much.

Yeah that was great. I guess he decided that if Methot was going to be out for awhile, someone had to do it.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

First game I missed. Damn over rated wine and good show. I tried watching at the Sens booth but too many uhhh.. Distractions. I didn't quite understand Michalek legwand greening but I mean it's. A shootout and these are NHL players. It's not like they're totally incapable. But we have he kid line just chilling on the bench. And was it just me. But from what I saw cowen was stepping up on absolutely everything. He's was playing amazing. Meeting forwards at the blueline and not just letting them gain the zone. Then again I did see very small snippets of the game. I did see the entire overtime though. Any interesting things of note someone can summarize for me ? Who played good. Who played terrible.

 

[God Says No]

Anyone else enjoy the hell out of Karlssons hip check on Kane on that offside? Don't know why I enjoyed that so much.

Because it was against Kane. He's such a rat.

 

[Micklebot]

For all the people criticizing Legwand and Michalek in the shootout, they both have better historical numbers than Bobby freakin Ryan, who I'm sure everybody would be just fine seeing in the shootout lineup.

Greening; well I'd rather have seen Hoffman or Stone, but who knows how they've performed in practice, MacLean was probably just pissed at everyone missing the net and wanted to send some out that wouldn't be too fancy.