Not Elliott's fault, but..

bleedblue1223

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Jan 21, 2011
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Maybe it is because I played goaltender but I felt like Elliott was solid last night. He made a couple of big saves from prime scoring areas. The thing I noticed is none of the pucks went through his body and that is a big key of goaltending. Yes every now and then you need to make a huge save but the key is stopping the ones you should stop.

Also I fully believe if that clearing attempt on the last one doesn't take a odd bounce off the seam in the glass the Blues win this game (we had the momentum) and this topic never even comes up.

He was more than solid IMO. The 1st goal he could do nothing about, that was just poor play in front of him, and the 3rd goal no one could do anything about, it was just bad luck. The Kreider goal was a toss-up. Elliott at his best would make that stop, but it was still a breakaway with a deadly player, so every goalie gets a pass in that scenario. He made plenty of big saves in the first to keep it close to make up for not stopping Kreider in the 3rd. After the 1st, it easily could have been about 3-0.
 

2 Minute Minor

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He was more than solid IMO. The 1st goal he could do nothing about, that was just poor play in front of him, and the 3rd goal no one could do anything about, it was just bad luck. The Kreider goal was a toss-up. Elliott at his best would make that stop, but it was still a breakaway with a deadly player, so every goalie gets a pass in that scenario. He made plenty of big saves in the first to keep it close to make up for not stopping Kreider in the 3rd. After the 1st, it easily could have been about 3-0.

Elliott took away a lot on the breakaway, but Kreider made a great shot.
 

Dbrownss

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Jan 5, 2014
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Elliott took away a lot on the breakaway, but Kreider made a great shot.

Kreider knew what he was going to do the whole time. Ells didn't over commit which to me is a good thing, Kreider got him to just barely flinch and flicked it right inside the post. Great shot that would beat any goalie
 

Blues88

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Apr 27, 2009
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I can't believe there is any criticism for Elliott after the putrid D over the first two periods and the prime chances the Rangers got.

Nothing he could do on any of them. Nash and many other NHL'ers will score with that kind of time in the slot. He looked off balance on Kreider's breakaway but there again, shouldn't have happened and not many goalies can anticipate a play with that kind of speed bearing down.

The rangers are an opportunistic team and the Blues, per usual, out possessed them badly. At some point they'll have to turn possession time into scoring chances....yet it seems over-passing continues to be an issue. The difference was clearly fine tuning and game prep. We looked out of it....no transition game to speak of until late into the 2nd, bad passes, bad reads, forced plays. The PP looked atrocious until late, and even then...take a cue from Philly and put someone high in the slot as a release valve. Get the right handedness to allow a one timer from both sides of the ice and pull defenders out of position. They are WAY too stationary and perimeter happy.

It's early and there are positives to draw for sure. Lehtera looked good and capable in that 2C role. He is WAY bigger than I anticipated (went last thursday and saw him up close) and seems to protect the puck well. Reuniting Schwartz and Tarasenko seemed to ignite both of them. Stastny looked pretty good and I think he'll be dangerous below the goal line. Shattenkirk continues to display the best offensive instincts on the blue line in my opinion.

Not a huge fan of Bergie up with Backes and Oshie. We'll see.
 

Maya Blue

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Jan 17, 2013
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Cole is better when he is forced to make quick decisions. He simply over-thinks simple plays when he has too much time. He made some really good plays pinching in and has a big shot, but his over-thinking of simple plays will limit what he becomes.

And that probably has more to do with him constantly having to look over his shoulder for being benched. He's afraid to make a mistake. Let the kid play and get some confidence. When Hitch says things in the media that when he has too much time to make a play he thinks too much, that's not really helping the guy gain confidence.

If Hitch applied the same standards to the other guys, all of them, especially Jackman, would be continually benched.
 

BlueAero

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Apr 19, 2013
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I can't believe there is any criticism for Elliott after the putrid D over the first two periods and the prime chances the Rangers got.

Nothing he could do on any of them. Nash and many other NHL'ers will score with that kind of time in the slot. He looked off balance on Kreider's breakaway but there again, shouldn't have happened and not many goalies can anticipate a play with that kind of speed bearing down.

The rangers are an opportunistic team and the Blues, per usual, out possessed them badly. At some point they'll have to turn possession time into scoring chances....yet it seems over-passing continues to be an issue. The difference was clearly fine tuning and game prep. We looked out of it....no transition game to speak of until late into the 2nd, bad passes, bad reads, forced plays. The PP looked atrocious until late, and even then...take a cue from Philly and put someone high in the slot as a release valve. Get the right handedness to allow a one timer from both sides of the ice and pull defenders out of position. They are WAY too stationary and perimeter happy.

It's early and there are positives to draw for sure. Lehtera looked good and capable in that 2C role. He is WAY bigger than I anticipated (went last thursday and saw him up close) and seems to protect the puck well. Reuniting Schwartz and Tarasenko seemed to ignite both of them. Stastny looked pretty good and I think he'll be dangerous below the goal line. Shattenkirk continues to display the best offensive instincts on the blue line in my opinion.

Not a huge fan of Bergie up with Backes and Oshie. We'll see.

I'd pretty much agree with this assessment. It's going to take some time for this squad to come together cuz they sure looked a disjointed last night. We'll be OK. So we got beat....it's way early.
 

JustOneB4IDie

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Jan 31, 2011
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Elliott? Has never been a #1 Goalie, and like Halak will become the Whipping Boy soon enough if the last line Defense doesn't win, he's under the microscope for sure. And I am not a fan of Elliott, still ticked off about the day Armstrong foolishly traded Bishop. Allen will get his chance soon enough and I for one look forward to this.
 

KirkOut

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Elliott? Has never been a #1 Goalie, and like Halak will become the Whipping Boy soon enough if the last line Defense doesn't win, he's under the microscope for sure. And I am not a fan of Elliott, still ticked off about the day Armstrong foolishly traded Bishop. Allen will get his chance soon enough and I for one look forward to this.

Yeah what a terrible trade by Armstrong. He got a 2nd for a guy that would have walked for nothing at the end of the season. :shakehead

Elliott looked decent at best yesterday but he is statistically one of the best goalies in Blues history and I have faith in him
 

SirPaste

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Elliott? Has never been a #1 Goalie, and like Halak will become the Whipping Boy soon enough if the last line Defense doesn't win, he's under the microscope for sure. And I am not a fan of Elliott, still ticked off about the day Armstrong foolishly traded Bishop. Allen will get his chance soon enough and I for one look forward to this.

Bishop was leaving as a UFA at the end of the year, it was good we got a pick for him, nothing foolish about it
 

Majorityof1

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Mar 6, 2014
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The original poster has stated a few times that this thread is not about the season opener but an overall feeling. However, giving the timing of this thread, it is hard to believe that the loss had nothing to do with it. So first let's address that. Elliot was good. Hate to break it to you, but we did not pay for Lundqvist, Price or Rinne. We are paying Elliot less than a third of what Lundqvist makes. He is tied for 27th highest paid goalie, on the very bottom rung of starters. And he is a steal for that. We wanted someone who could be solid, keep us in games, make saves he supposed to make, and occasionally help us out with a great save. Elliot did that. We didn't get a guy who could stand on his head and win every game for us. He can do that on occasion, but its risky to rely on that every night with any goalie.

We saved money in order to bolster our defense and offense to win the game. They didn't do that. This was on the rest of the team. They tried to do too much. They overpassed, over-juggled the lines, tried to get fancy and ended up turning the puck over leading to prime scoring chances. On the first goal, Shattenkirk made a bad pass, Berglund wasn't aware enough to react to the bad pass and Petro partially-screened Elliot without blocking the shot at all. The second goal was a break-away and a good shot by a super-speedy player (I wish we had that kind of speed). Having Jackman pinching in as the furthest D back with someone as fast as Kreider on the ice is really dumb. Both D were caught against the boards on the same side, and had no shot to get back. Finally on the last goal, the Blues got a terrible bounce and St. Louis (the player) made a heck of a heads up play to give it to Nash. He launched a wide open shot before Elliot could even process what the hell was happening. That goal is nobody's fault but luck and quick thinking by St. Louis (the player).

One more point, to the person who said .880 save percentage won't cut it, it is one game. Save percentages and GAA are only useful as an amalgamation of several games. One game tells nothing as bad luck and bad play in front can skew the stats. Over time, luck and play has a chance to even out. If you want to use stats that are meaningless, I can counter that Elliot's stats from last year were better than Lundqvist's (save %, GAA, and Win %) who is considered one of the best goalies in the world. He also played in half as many games. Let's wait til we get a meaningful sample size before we bring stats into it.

As for the overall prognosis that Allen will over-take Elliot, I don't think it will be this year. I am not as sold on Allen as many of you. He wasn't as good as everyone remembers from 2 years ago. He merely played better than our struggling goalies at the time. The team rallied behind him with unprecedented scoring for us, so he got the wins. Elliot's stats the past three years on the other hand are among the best in the NHL (I believe 3rd in GAA among goalies with 50+ games, without checking as I'm lazy). Allen has the skills to be a very good goalie. However, it will take some time as he adjusts to the NHL game. Goalies take more time to develop than other players. Look at Bishop as an example. He was 27 last year when he really stepped it up. If the Blues organization and fans don't try to tear Elliot down and give him a real shot, he can be a solid starter for us while Allen develops. If we start a goalie controversy after one game, that helps nobody. I'd say, and have said, Elliot is clear 1A this year, maybe even a #1 with no A, B. Next year, things get murkier as they split games. The year after that, Allen will become the 1A. The next year, we won't bring Elliot back and Allen will fully take the reins.
 

BlueOil

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Apr 28, 2010
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No offense to any other Blues fans, but the first game we lost, someone was going to make this thread.

Elliott's played well enough to earn this and he played great last night, but fans lack confidence in him. Even though last night he showed he CAN keep his team in a game when they're not playing well. That's exactly what we need.
 

bleedblue1223

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Jan 21, 2011
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No offense to any other Blues fans, but the first game we lost, someone was going to make this thread.

Elliott's played well enough to earn this and he played great last night, but fans lack confidence in him. Even though last night he showed he CAN keep his team in a game when they're not playing well. That's exactly what we need.

Fans lack confidence in everyone after loses.
 

BlueOil

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Apr 28, 2010
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And that probably has more to do with him constantly having to look over his shoulder for being benched. He's afraid to make a mistake. Let the kid play and get some confidence. When Hitch says things in the media that when he has too much time to make a play he thinks too much, that's not really helping the guy gain confidence.

If Hitch applied the same standards to the other guys, all of them, especially Jackman, would be continually benched.

Cole hasn't earned anything. He deserves to be looking over his shoulder because he doesn't play well enough to secure a spot, even on the bottom pairing.

Other players, like Jackman have earned their positions and we generally know what kind of game they bring so they aren't getting benched for a bad game. Cole has proven to be generally unreliable, leaning towards securing the 7th defense spot.

He's not getting rewarded for playing poorly, why do Blues fans expect him to be given special treatment? After 6 professional seasons, Cole should've figured it out. It's no longer about development, it's time for Cole to secure a spot or become trade bait.
 

2 Minute Minor

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Jun 3, 2008
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Cole hasn't earned anything. He deserves to be looking over his shoulder because he doesn't play well enough to secure a spot, even on the bottom pairing.

Other players, like Jackman have earned their positions and we generally know what kind of game they bring so they aren't getting benched for a bad game. Cole has proven to be generally unreliable, leaning towards securing the 7th defense spot.

He's not getting rewarded for playing poorly, why do Blues fans expect him to be given special treatment? After 6 professional seasons, Cole should've figured it out. It's no longer about development, it's time for Cole to secure a spot or become trade bait.

I agree with this completely. Leopold wasn't anything special last night, but I wouldn't be shocked to see him in the line-up above Cole at some point. I also wonder how close Lindbohm is to passing him on the depth chart. I'm looking forward to how he fares in the early AHL season.
 

Wilch

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Mar 29, 2010
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Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but will Elliott be getting the start against CGY tomorrow?
 

Celtic Note

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Yeah what a terrible trade by Armstrong. He got a 2nd for a guy that would have walked for nothing at the end of the season. :shakehead

Elliott looked decent at best yesterday but he is statistically one of the best goalies in Blues history and I have faith in him

The trade reaffirmed he couldn't evaluate goaltending talent. I say reaffirmed because his first blunder was the trade to acquire Halak, and later he completely verified that assessment with the trade for Miller.
 

KirkOut

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The trade reaffirmed he couldn't evaluate goaltending talent. I say reaffirmed because his first blunder was the trade to acquire Halak, and later he completely verified that assessment with the trade for Miller.

At the time Halak and Elliott were putting up historic numbers and Bishop was a backup-quality goalie. It was a no-brainer and every GM would have tried to deal Bishop. Sure it looks bad now, and yeah so do the Halak and Miller trades, so I have no argument there. But in each case, the trade had to be made. Halak looked like an up-and-comer and Mason was not cutting it. We all know what happened last year. In hindsight none of the trades look good, but I think he had to make all 3 moves. IMO the value in the first 2 trades was fine but I still think we gave up too much for Miller and *sigh* Ott
 

Celtic Note

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At the time Halak and Elliott were putting up historic numbers and Bishop was a backup-quality goalie. It was a no-brainer and every GM would have tried to deal Bishop. Sure it looks bad now, and yeah so do the Halak and Miller trades, so I have no argument there. But in each case, the trade had to be made. Halak looked like an up-and-comer and Mason was not cutting it. We all know what happened last year. In hindsight none of the trades look good, but I think he had to make all 3 moves. IMO the value in the first 2 trades was fine but I still think we gave up too much for Miller and *sigh* Ott

I don't believe the trades had to be made at all. It was a major sign of succumbing to popular opinion.

I doubt Bishop would have left if he were offered a contract.

Selling high was the smart move, one Army failed to make.
 

2 Minute Minor

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I don't believe the trades had to be made at all. It was a major sign of succumbing to popular opinion.

I doubt Bishop would have left if he were offered a contract.

Selling high was the smart move, one Army failed to make.

You think Bishop would have accepted a contract with no assurance of anything but an AHL job? I doubt that.

The fact that there was at least one team willing to spend a good value pick (2nd) for him kind of points to the fact that he could have gotten a better deal than what the Blues would have been offering, most likely with an assurance that he could compete for a starting job. I may be remembering the sequence wrong, but hadn't he virtually outplayed Elliott in camp but still been sent down (or that they were very close in camp). That had to be frustrating, wondering what more he could possibly do to break through. (Then the Jennings run for Halak/Elliott kind of made movement there look even less plausible.)

Sure, it would be nice to have kept Bishop, but I don't think the decision to trade him was the critical moment. It was the decision for him to be sent down out of camp to the AHL on the last year of his controlled time.

Maybe the problem was Halak. Halak was not an ideal partner for someone who was breaking into the league. He needed a more reliable 2nd option paired with him (like Elliott) since he hadn't shown the capability to handle a high volume of starts. If you have a more solid starter at that time, I think its more realistic to keep Bishop out of camp and tell Elliott, "Thanks for coming."

However, after that Jennings season I don't recall too many people expressing criticim of Armstrong for the goaltending personnel decisions.
 

Celtic Note

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You think Bishop would have accepted a contract with no assurance of anything but an AHL job? I doubt that.

The fact that there was at least one team willing to spend a good value pick (2nd) for him kind of points to the fact that he could have gotten a better deal than what the Blues would have been offering, most likely with an assurance that he could compete for a starting job. I may be remembering the sequence wrong, but hadn't he virtually outplayed Elliott in camp but still been sent down (or that they were very close in camp). That had to be frustrating, wondering what more he could possibly do to break through. (Then the Jennings run for Halak/Elliott kind of made movement there look even less plausible.)

Sure, it would be nice to have kept Bishop, but I don't think the decision to trade him was the critical moment. It was the decision for him to be sent down out of camp to the AHL on the last year of his controlled time.

Maybe the problem was Halak. Halak was not an ideal partner for someone who was breaking into the league. He needed a more reliable 2nd option paired with him (like Elliott) since he hadn't shown the capability to handle a high volume of starts. If you have a more solid starter at that time, I think its more realistic to keep Bishop out of camp and tell Elliott, "Thanks for coming."

However, after that Jennings season I don't recall too many people expressing criticim of Armstrong for the goaltending personnel decisions.

I most certainly expressed my criticism after the Jennings season.

Selling high on Halak would have been wise but not getting him in the first place would have made even more sense. Too many people got cought up in the hype.

I know it's not popular opinion but popular opinion brought us Jalak and Miller.

People can rationalize those moves all they want but Army had a choice. He evaluated the available talent poorly and failed in the process. He finally realized that center was our weakness. All I can say is about time.
 

griff713

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Mar 25, 2014
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i've heard some people say elliot is one of the best backups in the league, but even though his numbers are sort of inflated due to playing behind a good defense and having a relatively small sample size he can definitely keep us in the game until we get jake allen for. To the poster above that mentioned his salary, that is definitely a big plus because it helps us afford other things on the team for a goalie that can be better than a quarter of those goalies ahead of him.
 
Apr 30, 2012
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I most certainly expressed my criticism after the Jennings season.

Selling high on Halak would have been wise but not getting him in the first place would have made even more sense. Too many people got cought up in the hype.

I know it's not popular opinion but popular opinion brought us Jalak and Miller.

People can rationalize those moves all they want but Army had a choice. He evaluated the available talent poorly and failed in the process. He finally realized that center was our weakness. All I can say is about time.

Just out it curiosity, who would you have preferred to Halak?
 

Jzk

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Mar 12, 2009
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Just out it curiosity, who would you have preferred to Halak?

I think he's alluding to giving Bishop his shot. It was the perfect time honestly. We weren't ready to contend so there was a few years to see what we had. Ownership needed/wanted the 2 game playoff money tho.
 

bluemandan

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Mar 18, 2008
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Cole is better when he is forced to make quick decisions. He simply over-thinks simple plays when he has too much time. He made some really good plays pinching in and has a big shot, but his over-thinking of simple plays will limit what he becomes.

So your saying he is the Berglund of defense? I'd buy that.
 

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