Northlands to eliminate horse racing

[rosemount289]

One additional .................???

One additional concern for people who live in the area........a concert, festival venue would make too much noise for the surrounding neighbourhood.

 

[abootzky]

One additional concern for people who live in the area........a concert, festival venue would make too much noise for the surrounding neighbourhood.

That's right. If you think about the sites of major music festivals past & present, almost none that I can remember take place in or near a city's residential core.

I only go to the horse races 2 or 3 times a year these days and I recognize it's a dying industry. Still, I'm going to be quite sad to see it go.

 

[CanmoreMike]

Lol those guys backed away in the last economy downturn. I never see them going through with it.

The real problem with the Northlands area is there is such a vast sketchy area that surrounds it so you'll always have an issue there. They just need to stick to developing that area properly for what City really needs and then worry about going bigger when the time is right. Sounds like we really need the sheets of ice so start there. Do we need that 5k arena right now? Or are we fine with Shaw, Jubilee, Winspear and current Expo center?

Excellent points.

I would argue that while that area will be low income and depressed for a long while (it'll probably always be the 'hood of Edmonton) it might benefit from the Oilers moving.

Currently if you live around there you are basically dealing with a Folk Festival probably 80 nights of the year or more. Traffic. Parking issues. Exuberant visitors. Unlike the Folk Festival's hosting neighbourhood Cloverdale, it is not charming or desirable. Removing one headache might ease some of the stress on the neighbourhood and might be beneficial to the area.

Biggest issue with Northlands is it's basically a suburban development plopped down in an urban setting. Becomes a compound with little interaction with its neighbourhood.

I am hoping Rogers Place is less of a blackhole on downtown and does create some spinoffs and benefits for everyone. Just not holding my breath till I see it.

 

[Paperbagofglory]

Excellent points.

I would argue that while that area will be low income and depressed for a long while (it'll probably always be the 'hood of Edmonton) it might benefit from the Oilers moving.

Currently if you live around there you are basically dealing with a Folk Festival probably 80 nights of the year or more. Traffic. Parking issues. Exuberant visitors. Unlike the Folk Festival's hosting neighbourhood Cloverdale, it is not charming or desirable. Removing one headache might ease some of the stress on the neighbourhood and might be beneficial to the area.

Biggest issue with Northlands is it's basically a suburban development plopped down in an urban setting. Becomes a compound with little interaction with its neighbourhood.

I am hoping Rogers Place is less of a blackhole on downtown and does create some spinoffs and benefits for everyone. Just not holding my breath till I see it.

You will be dealing with the same issues with Rogers place that you just complained about with Northlands, only 2 times worse.

Plenty of people live in that downtown area and surrounding neighbourhoods and now they will have to deal with noise, traffic jams, more expensive parking on game nights, etc.

We just moved the problem somewhere else. Downtown around the Baccarat is way more sketchy than 118th and Northlands. That neighbourhood has greatly improved since the early 90's. I think a lot of the problems are overstated and from people that live outside of it and have a negative perspective as an outsider. Its an old area and its not shiny and new so automatically it scares people that have a few more dollars in their pockets to spend compared to the people in that area.

Maybe i am biased because i grew up there since the late 80's and have seen an improvement and would much rather live there than 97th street around downtown, Jasper Place, or Millwoods.

 

[rosemount289]

The only point............???

You will be dealing with the same issues with Rogers place that you just complained about with Northlands, only 2 times worse.

Plenty of people live in that downtown area and surrounding neighbourhoods and now they will have to deal with noise, traffic jams, more expensive parking on game nights, etc.

We just moved the problem somewhere else. Downtown around the Baccarat is way more sketchy than 118th and Northlands. That neighbourhood has greatly improved since the early 90's. I think a lot of the problems are overstated and from people that live outside of it and have a negative perspective as an outsider. Its an old area and its not shiny and new so automatically it scares people that have a few more dollars in their pockets to spend compared to the people in that area.

Maybe i am biased because i grew up there since the late 80's and have seen an improvement and would much rather live there than 97th street around downtown, Jasper Place, or Millwoods.

The only point I can state is that the new Rogers Place......the noise is inside an enclosed arena..........the proposed stadium by Northlands is an outdoor venue in the summertime.........the noise factor would sound twice as loud.

 

[joestevens29]

The only point I can state is that the new Rogers Place......the noise is inside an enclosed arena..........the proposed stadium by Northlands is an outdoor venue in the summertime.........the noise factor would sound twice as loud.

That and a lot of the residential is in towers is it not? Rexall is surrounded by older homes that don't exactly have sound proofing

 

[Replacement*]

A few comments.

1) The spend money on Reconfiguring Rexall or build new arena was always a falsely stated premise and most anybody knew it. What was obvious was that Rexall, and Northlands was going to continue to be a civic cashgrab even after the new arena which continues undeterred. So 85M to reconfigure Rexall? Could be worse.

2) Rather than 6 rinks I would remove all lower bowl seating and create 3 rinks there. I would allow that floor space to be used as concert, exhibition, or entertainment floor space. I would retain all suites as is and rent those out as entertainment urban condos with free access to what ever entertainment is provided within. I would reconfigure club bar to be a private bar for residents and their guests or people with memberships.

I would redo the top floor restaurant and reopen it for business.

I would make the catwalk a premium seating experience for any entertainment events. Maybe even with loge purchased seating.

Hardly any of my refits would cost much money and are largely as is. Theres 60suites that could be rented out there as Condos. They could build more. Make it a living recreation environment. Build an exclusive work out area in club dressingroom. Keep the past murals, memories, mementos of the place.

Would be one of a kind place to live.

 

[Replacement*]

Next, 45M for the outdoor concert area is plain nuts. The Bleachers and track already allow such a place. Just build a stage in infield and done. Not keeping the bleachers, restaurants, bar, etc located in the paddock would be simply stupid and a waste of money. For outdoor concerts this would be considered premium package seating.
Also, 90-120K venues are unheard of and unneeded on this continent. No current acts require anything like that. For instance the Beyoncé tour, playing at Commonwealth is nowhere close to the appeal of past or long standing touring acts like Stones, Beatles, AC/DC/Pink Floyd/U2/Bowie etc

Those acts sellout stadiums instantly but have either stopped touring outright, are dead, or are not going to be continuing long.

BEyonce has been on sale for weeks and have sold 35K tickets. With her alleged to be the top touring act in the world right now.

There just is no future artists that require 100K stadiums or venues. none.

 

[Doc Scurlock]

You will be dealing with the same issues with Rogers place that you just complained about with Northlands, only 2 times worse.

Plenty of people live in that downtown area and surrounding neighbourhoods and now they will have to deal with noise, traffic jams, more expensive parking on game nights, etc.

We just moved the problem somewhere else. Downtown around the Baccarat is way more sketchy than 118th and Northlands. That neighbourhood has greatly improved since the early 90's. I think a lot of the problems are overstated and from people that live outside of it and have a negative perspective as an outsider. Its an old area and its not shiny and new so automatically it scares people that have a few more dollars in their pockets to spend compared to the people in that area.

Maybe i am biased because i grew up there since the late 80's and have seen an improvement and would much rather live there than 97th street around downtown, Jasper Place, or Millwoods.

Yeah, I'd say you have some bias. I cut through that area a couple times a week and I will say one thing, you've got quite a police presence there. You go to the Edmonton crime map site and that area lights up like a Christmas tree.

As for downtown, you think Katz is going to let that area remain sketchy? He already has the city hiring 40 more officers strictly for downtown. Whatever, sketchy element was in that area will pretty much be driven to some other neighborhood in the city cause the new arena area will not be a great place to conduct shady business.

 

[Gord]

northlands may have forgotten about a clause in the katz arena agreement...

http://edmontonjournal.com/business/local-business/city-supported-rexall-place-renovation-could-break-arena-deal

 

[Replacement*]

Yeah, I'd say you have some bias. I cut through that area a couple times a week and I will say one thing, you've got quite a police presence there. You go to the Edmonton crime map site and that area lights up like a Christmas tree.

As for downtown, you think Katz is going to let that area remain sketchy? He already has the city hiring 40 more officers strictly for downtown. Whatever, sketchy element was in that area will pretty much be driven to some other neighborhood in the city cause the new arena area will not be a great place to conduct shady business.

Not sure if you've thought this through. Any arena built in any city in the last Century bordering on a sketchy part of town (and no part of Edmonton is sketchier than just north of Rogers) is plagued with ongoing issues of trafficking, crime, etc. Concert venues are IDEAL locations for low life dealers to setup shop just far enough away to be sight unseen. This kind of development is a perfect impetus for them. Basically saves them a trip on the LRT to go to Coliseum station..

Edmontons downtown boundary has been revisited, I grant that, by having a lot of new development on the North side of 104ave, but just as in the 97st boundary anything past that remains an area most people are not comfortable going to. I fear with this as well that we've setup yet another wall where the City pushes up against impoverished areas which for a long time will remain like a night and day juxtaposition just over the space of 1-2 blocks.

Intererstingly the city has placed the new LRT station right in the middle of that no mans land. Pretty interesting location for children and families to use being within feet of the largest conglomeration of homeless social agencies and shelters found anywhere in Alberta. With it taking seconds to find people passed out, incoherent, using drugs, finding intravenous needles etc. What a great environs.

I always find that kind of thing unpleasant, unsettling when visiting other Cities and often wondering what kind of poor planning allowed such thing to occur.

No City should be putting their ground zero Entertainment district development right next to what has been on of its longstanding problematic areas.

How long before some of the high priced nightclubs that will be in the Entertainment district start to get some shady well heeled patrons? With lots of bucks but clear criminal ties.

Is the Katz wayne manor security deployment gonna fix all that ails that area immediately adjoining Rogers place?

105-107ave in either direction will remain sketchy for a long long time.

 

[Doc Scurlock]

Not sure if you've thought this through. Any arena built in any city in the last Century bordering on a sketchy part of town (and no part of Edmonton is sketchier than just north of Rogers) is plagued with ongoing issues of trafficking, crime, etc. Concert venues are IDEAL locations for low life dealers to setup shop just far enough away to be sight unseen. This kind of development is a perfect impetus for them. Basically saves them a trip on the LRT to go to Coliseum station..

Edmontons downtown boundary has been revisited, I grant that, by having a lot of new development on the North side of 104ave, but just as in the 97st boundary anything past that remains an area most people are not comfortable going to. I fear with this as well that we've setup yet another wall where the City pushes up against impoverished areas which for a long time will remain like a night and day juxtaposition just over the space of 1-2 blocks.

Intererstingly the city has placed the new LRT station right in the middle of that no mans land. Pretty interesting location for children and families to use being within feet of the largest conglomeration of homeless social agencies and shelters found anywhere in Alberta. With it taking seconds to find people passed out, incoherent, using drugs, finding intravenous needles etc. What a great environs.

I always find that kind of thing unpleasant, unsettling when visiting other Cities and often wondering what kind of poor planning allowed such thing to occur.

No City should be putting their ground zero Entertainment district development right next to what has been on of its longstanding problematic areas.

How long before some of the high priced nightclubs that will be in the Entertainment district start to get some shady well heeled patrons? With lots of bucks but clear criminal ties.

Is the Katz wayne manor security deployment gonna fix all that ails that area immediately adjoining Rogers place?

105-107ave in either direction will remain sketchy for a long long time.

The surrounding area will still be sketchy but I'm talking the immediate vicinity. I'm pretty sure you'll have cameras and cops so if you're a dealer you'd have pretty stupid to set up shop right at the district.

I'll also bet you that eventually money will prevail and the homeless shelters and whatnot will be driven out of that area because money talks.

 

[killer1980]

Unfortunately, horse racing is dying. It was fantastic in its day. I would always go up to Klondike Mike for luck when I walked into the track. The cost of operating it is too expensive considering the alternatives available via the I'net. As much as I hate to see people lose their jobs, it also doesn't make sense to have it artificially supported by the casinos and lotteries. I also doubt that this younger generation has the time or patience to spend 3 and a half hours at one venue for 8 wagering opportunities. I cherish the memories I have of the track but time waits for no one and it is time to move on, at least from the everyday months long meetings.

 

[rosemount289]

You know..........???

Unfortunately, horse racing is dying. It was fantastic in its day. I would always go up to Klondike Mike for luck when I walked into the track. The cost of operating it is too expensive considering the alternatives available via the I'net. As much as I hate to see people lose their jobs, it also doesn't make sense to have it artificially supported by the casinos and lotteries. I also doubt that this younger generation has the time or patience to spend 3 and a half hours at one venue for 8 wagering opportunities. I cherish the memories I have of the track but time waits for no one and it is time to move on, at least from the everyday months long meetings.

You know why?.........because to handicap (picking horses) is an art form and requires time, patience and analytical skills..........what does it take to push a button or pull a lever for slot machines............???

Today's "instant result mentality" of people and to take the easy way out is not conducive for picking horses. That's why it is a dying sport.

 

[rboomercat90]

You know why?.........because to handicap (picking horses) is an art form and requires time, patience and analytical skills..........what does it take to push a button or pull a lever for slot machines............???

Today's "instant result mentality" of people and to take the easy way out is not conducive for picking horses. That's why it is a dying sport.

I agree with this as being a big part of the problem. Other problems include allowing off track betting, simulcast racing from every major track around the world and the slot machines on the main floor. While all were considered to be good ideas or even necessary ones at the time I think they killed the live racing.

Putting the slot machines in brought a different element of people to the track. I worked security at the track in the eighties and nineties and I noticed the difference in clientele almost immediately. When it was just racing fans there it wasn't uncommon to see people leave their tickets or even their money on the tables while they went to place a bet or watch a race. It was safe. Most of the patrons were regulars and everybody knew everybody. We rarely ever had complaints of theft. The slot machines brought a more desperate type of gambler and thefts became pretty common. Once the off track betting opened up many racing regulars abandoned the race track for those establishments to get away from that environment.

Simulcast racing has taken a lot away from the live handle too. Before that was introduced there were only 10 races a day to bet on. All money bet went to the local card. Now there are usually upwards of 100 or more races every day not including the local card. Bettors only have so much cash. They'll bet the better tracks with the higher quality horses before the cheaper and more inconsistent horses that a small track like Nortlands offers.

 

[Beerfish]

northlands may have forgotten about a clause in the katz arena agreement...

http://edmontonjournal.com/business/local-business/city-supported-rexall-place-renovation-could-break-arena-deal

What a laughable scam katz pulled on this dumb ass city. Council then and now is filled with a bunch of utter buffoons.

 

[killer1980]

You know why?.........because to handicap (picking horses) is an art form and requires time, patience and analytical skills..........what does it take to push a button or pull a lever for slot machines............???

Today's "instant result mentality" of people and to take the easy way out is not conducive for picking horses. That's why it is a dying sport.

It's the dumbing down of our country and a major reason for our recent economic woes. But I don't want to get started. I wish everyone a lotta luck. They'll need it when Trump becomes President.

 

[killer1980]

Simulcast racing has taken a lot away from the live handle too. Before that was introduced there were only 10 races a day to bet on. All money bet went to the local card. Now there are usually upwards of 100 or more races every day not including the local card. Bettors only have so much cash. They'll bet the better tracks with the higher quality horses before the cheaper and more inconsistent horses that a small track like Nortlands offers.

The original simulcasting deals were flawed and they have not changed in 30 years. Way too much money was given to the host tracks and now the ADWs. Not nearly enough remained with the horsemen in whose jurisdiction the bets were made.

 

[shoop]

The original simulcasting deals were flawed and they have not changed in 30 years. Way too much money was given to the host tracks and now the ADWs. Not nearly enough remained with the horsemen in whose jurisdiction the bets were made.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

For decades the horseman have been screwed over on the money they have received in general. Little by little guys left the industry in Alberta because they couldn't make a financial go of it.

From the mid 80s to the early 90s I went to the track quite often. Family and friends were owners and trainers. The amount of money returned to the athletes in Alberta (drivers, trainers, jockeys) got smaller and smaller. Never mind not keeping up with inflation.

People slowly filtered away. Some moved to other jurisdictions. Some sold their farms and moved south. Some just retired.

I know a trainer who has to work two part-time jobs. She does it for the love of the animals. I admire her dedication, but that's not enough to sustain an industry.

Have any of you seen the 'dorms' the stable hands stay in? It's appalling.

A lot of these people are poor uneducated individuals making their way in the world. No one forces them into these lifestyles, but it is still pretty horrific the conditions they live in. But the government gets their share and the industry has basically died due to neglect.

 

[Replacement*]

You know why?.........because to handicap (picking horses) is an art form and requires time, patience and analytical skills..........what does it take to push a button or pull a lever for slot machines............???

Today's "instant result mentality" of people and to take the easy way out is not conducive for picking horses. That's why it is a dying sport.

Interesting post. But dying alongside it is intimate interpersonal interaction between say son and dad or mentors who explain the nuances of picking a horse to a younger generation more intune with picking what character they want to be on the latest sim.

Further, seems to me that picking a horse and learning about that was an oral tradition and is largely lost in a text based world.

In this way not knowing how to pick a horse would be similar to kids not knowing how to camp, or first nations youth not knowing how to trap, use the land, or why.

isn't oral traditions dying in general the biggest factor here?

I'm just speaking dynamics. I don't know much about horse racing.

 

[Replacement*]

So nobody had any response to my residential idea. It seems to me the idea was even floated previously.
The facility presently has 56 suites that could be made over to condos. with not all that much required. Concourses could be turned to retail mall. Concessions could be turned to food court type vendors. Club lounge could be a bar. Lower removeable eats could be taken out providing more floor space for whatever use.

Seems theres other low cost options than building a multilevel facility that quickly escalates costs to 85M and frankly I think that's a very lowball estimate for what they are proposing.

 

[rosemount289]

When you say............???

Interesting post. But dying alongside it is intimate interpersonal interaction between say son and dad or mentors who explain the nuances of picking a horse to a younger generation more intune with picking what character they want to be on the latest sim.

Further, seems to me that picking a horse and learning about that was an oral tradition and is largely lost in a text based world.

In this way not knowing how to pick a horse would be similar to kids not knowing how to camp, or first nations youth not knowing how to trap, use the land, or why.

isn't oral traditions dying in general the biggest factor here?

I'm just speaking dynamics. I don't know much about horse racing.

Replacement...........When you say "oral".........I take it to mean word of mouth or passed on from generation to generation?

We are talking in the same neighborhood.........I say "art form" because you cannot learn "handicapping" just by reading a book or by learning online from a computer.

The finer points takes years of experience and requires lots of learning by "trial and error".

Plus there is no one method to picking horses.......there are many methods......speed handicapping, pace handicapping, trip handicapping or combinations of all.

That's why I call it a lost art.....there is no one easy answer that you can look up on Google. There are many methods.

I can show you how to paint a picture............but I cannot make you an Artist.

 

[rboomercat90]

So nobody had any response to my residential idea. It seems to me the idea was even floated previously.
The facility presently has 56 suites that could be made over to condos. with not all that much required. Concourses could be turned to retail mall. Concessions could be turned to food court type vendors. Club lounge could be a bar. Lower removeable eats could be taken out providing more floor space for whatever use.

Seems theres other low cost options than building a multilevel facility that quickly escalates costs to 85M and frankly I think that's a very lowball estimate for what they are proposing.

Interesting idea but I just don't see any demand for what you're proposing.

Why who would want to live there? The building itself is in the middle of nowhere. 56 suites isn't going to support the economic activity you're proposing. People aren't going to flock to it for entertainment when better options are currently being built. People don't go to that area to spend money now even with the lure of an NHL team. They sure aren't going there to spend money when that one leaves. Even less traffic in the area after the race track closes too.

Getting back to even just the idea of turning the suites into condos. I don't see how you make them appealing at all. They are in the middle of the building without any windows for outside lighting. It would be like living in a dungeon. I can't see anybody wanting to spend money to live there.

 

[CanmoreMike]

You will be dealing with the same issues with Rogers place that you just complained about with Northlands, only 2 times worse.

Plenty of people live in that downtown area and surrounding neighbourhoods and now they will have to deal with noise, traffic jams, more expensive parking on game nights, etc.

We just moved the problem somewhere else. Downtown around the Baccarat is way more sketchy than 118th and Northlands. That neighbourhood has greatly improved since the early 90's. I think a lot of the problems are overstated and from people that live outside of it and have a negative perspective as an outsider. Its an old area and its not shiny and new so automatically it scares people that have a few more dollars in their pockets to spend compared to the people in that area.

Maybe i am biased because i grew up there since the late 80's and have seen an improvement and would much rather live there than 97th street around downtown, Jasper Place, or Millwoods.

I would argue the big difference is that the arena is in close proximity to many who will be attending games either walking from work or their homes.

If 15% of downtown attends games nightly that's still probably 4000-6000 of the attendance that night. And 15% might be a low number. If the same percentage attended games in the areas surrounding Rexall that might only be half those numbers. And considering the areas the idea that 15% attend games is probably a high number.

Traffic will probably be less of an issue than people think (arteries going in all directions will ease much of what ails Rexall traffic issues). And if the number of people who ride the train stays the same plus more walk to the games...less of an issue.

 

[CanmoreMike]

What a laughable scam katz pulled on this dumb ass city. Council then and now is filled with a bunch of utter buffoons.

The sheer stupidity of this clause.

"for the purpose of sports and entertainment" is such an overly general term that it ensures the city can't help the area other than demolish Rexall.

Brilliant, Stephen Mandel.