Norris Discussion III

johan f

Registered User
Jun 23, 2008
2,389
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Sweden
Why you guys from Sweden is becoming so obsessive with Karlsson? We are all hockey fans, and cheer for the player on our favourite team. But you guys are idolizing Karlsson to a God like level.:help:

Well, for starters. There's no Peter Forsberg around anymore. Erik is the closest to carry that magic aura Peter did. Especially pre-cooke.
 

IceBjoern

Registered User
Feb 24, 2010
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Stockholm
Why you guys from Sweden is becoming so obsessive with Karlsson? We are all hockey fans, and cheer for the player on our favourite team. But you guys are idolizing Karlsson to a God like level.:help:

I'm just one Swede and I've only seen two others in this thread! Holy generalization HabFan!
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
53,829
31,041
...

Historically no non-playoff defender has won the Norris...closes results:

53-54: Bill Gadsby - 3rd in voting - CHI finished 6th
58-59: Bill Gadsby - 2nd in voting -NYR finished 5th
58-59: Marcel Pronovost - 3rd in voting - DET finished 6th
66-67: Bobby Orr - 3rd in voting - BOS finished 6th
67-68: Tim Horton - 3rd in voting - TOR finished 5th in East
13-14: Shea Weber - 3rd in voting - NSH finished 6th in Central

I don't see this changing this year...I think the common reason (can't prove it) behind this is if a defender is truly the best, then he should be able to carry his team into the playoffs if they're not already a playoff team.


...

So question for you: In your opinion, did any of those guys have an objectively better season than the Norris winner? Imo, if anything, that list proves that voters have still voted for guys on non-playoff teams. I'm not saying Karlsson will or won't win this year, just that I don't think being on a non playoff team has as big of an effect as people seem to think. The history of it never happening has as much to do with the scarcity of demen having Norris caliber seasons on non playoff teams, in part because when a dman has that good of a season, his team generally moves up the standings.

Cant tell if your saying Karlsson should get it or not.

I already know that... If you have a +100 im sure you get nominated. Cause thats pretty amazing..


Karlsson has alot of points but only a + six to show for it.

Subban doesnt have as much points as Karlsson but right behind him and a better plus/minus

I dont really watch either of them though. Not a fan of either team. And Nhl.com wont show me takeaways

But based on the recent track record of The Norris. If you get 100 points but have a minus 99.. Youll still get it.. If the next guy has 99 points but a +100

Okay.. Maybe not. But still. Keith was pretty obv. So look at the years before that.

And if you remove Price from the equation, what happens to Subban's +/-?

Nice lists, with the result that Karlsson is the best offensive Dman in the league over the last 5 years.
I and every sane hockey fan agree with you that he is, and by a fair margine.
The sad part is though, that the Norris is about this year only, so your lists are worthless. To say Josi is as good offensively is not crazy at all, when you look at only those past few months. Karlsson has a few points more, that's right but only because he get's more PP and starts more shifts in the offense. The use of him in the daily line up is pretty different. 5v5, Josi was better this year. Call EK the best offensive Dman in the league nontheless, I wouldn't say it's wrong. But to act like he's head and shoulders above everyone else is pretty ignorant.

I think people saying he's head and shoulders above everyone else offensively likely rely on the eye test as much as stats, but seeing as you've used stats to "prove" others are in the same ball park, how would other candidate do if they played a quarter of the season with Phillips or a comparably inept dman dragging them down? We know that Karlsson's numbers exploded away from Phillips this season, and that Phillips tended to drag down every one he played with offensively, so much so that he's pretty much been a scratch for the last half of the season despite Ottawa's lack of top 4 caliber LD, but despite that, he's still leading the league in pts, and on par in pts per 60 at ES. Do you honestly think that Josi would have faired the same with Phillips as he did with Weber? How about Subban having Phillips over Markov? Context matters. It would be pretty ignorant to ignore it. Karlsson has around 1.21 pts per 60 on the season at ES, and 1.37 away from Phillips. He's also one of the few Dmen to lead his team in scoring. If your point is that his offensive production this year isn't head and shoulders above the rest this year, sure, I'd agree. But that isn't the same as proving he's not in his own league offensively from a talent analysis perspective.
 

ThirdManIn

Registered User
Aug 9, 2009
55,115
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Exactly.

tumblr_m0wjwguRbL1qmazcxo1_400.gif

:laugh:

How the hell is that not holding?
 

Samsquanch

Raging Bull Squatch
Nov 28, 2008
8,227
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. Karlsson has a few points more, that's right but only because he get's more PP and starts more shifts in the offense.

This is so just so wrong on so many levels.

Karlsson has more points because he simply a much, much more talented dman offensively.

Offensively, he is head and shoulders above the rest, even if the point totals are in the same stratosphere this season with the other top offensive dmen.

The coaches know, the players know, and most unbiased analysts know that Erik Karlsson does things that no other dman in the league is capable of. Point totals and hockey sense aside, he will skate through your entire team if he is allowed any space, and has the hands to keep up with his million dollar legs.

It's a game changer, and he can consistently take games over like only a small handful of guys in the league can. He's easily one of the most feared players overall, and that's why he's going to likely win his second Norris.
 

11Goat11

Inside her
Feb 18, 2006
2,109
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This is so just so wrong on so many levels.

Karlsson has more points because he simply a much, much more talented dman offensively.

Offensively, he is head and shoulders above the rest, even if the point totals are in the same stratosphere this season with the other top offensive dmen.

The coaches know, the players know, and most unbiased analysts know that Erik Karlsson does things that no other dman in the league is capable of. Point totals and hockey sense aside, he will skate through your entire team if he is allowed any space, and has the hands to keep up with his million dollar legs.

It's a game changer, and he can consistently take games over like only a small handful of guys in the league can. He's easily one of the most feared players overall, and that's why he's going to likely win his second Norris.

I hate harping on this point but Therrien has a leash on Subban and will not let him loose. If PK had free reign and didn't care about the defensive side of play, he could easily put up more points a la rover Karlson. Just look at the skating video posted on Shattenkirk's defensemen rundowns posted here and you can easily see PK can do what Karlson does.

Look at Leaf players year after year that put up good points but their Defensive play suffers and the team goes nowhere, commitment to D first gets teams in the playoffs.
 

Proust*

Registered User
Dec 8, 2010
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Look at Leaf players year after year that put up good points but their Defensive play suffers and the team goes nowhere, commitment to D first gets teams in the playoffs.

Counter-point: Coach MacLean had the Sens (and Karlsson) playing defense-first for the first half of the season. Coach Cameron came along and gave Karlsson the green light.

PK is probably on a leash because Therrien knows that without it, PK will get lost or bite someone.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
53,829
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This is so just so wrong on so many levels.

Karlsson has more points because he simply a much, much more talented dman offensively.

Offensively, he is head and shoulders above the rest, even if the point totals are in the same stratosphere this season with the other top offensive dmen.

The coaches know, the players know, and most unbiased analysts know that Erik Karlsson does things that no other dman in the league is capable of. Point totals and hockey sense aside, he will skate through your entire team if he is allowed any space, and has the hands to keep up with his million dollar legs.

It's a game changer, and he can consistently take games over like only a small handful of guys in the league can. He's easily one of the most feared players overall, and that's why he's going to likely win his second Norris.

One thing I find interesting is how people point to zone starts as a reason that Karlsson has some form of advantage.

Most research has shown that the advantage or disadvantage lasts about 10 secs, and is primarily only attained on a faceoff win, the effect of a faceoff win can be seen in the graph below:

ctab-1.png


Here's the funny part; for all the bemoaning Karlsson's unfair advantage because of where he starts his shifts, here's where he ranks in raw numbers according to behind the net (note that they don't seem to have updated lately, so we are missing some games):

Here's where he is in OZ face-off's where his team won the draw (most advantaged situation)

RK|NAME|GP|Off Faceoff Wins
1|RYANSUTER|71|308
2|KEITHYANDLE|77|282
3|P.K.SUBBAN|75|271
4|DREWDOUGHTY|76|266
5|JUSTINFAULK|74|264
6|MARKSTREIT|75|263
7|SHEAWEBER|71|256
8|ROMANJOSI|71|256
9|BRENTBURNS|78|251
10|ERIKKARLSSON|73|249
11|ANDREIMARKOV|74|247
12|MICHAELSTONE|75|238
13|DUNCANKEITH|75|236
14|RONHAINSEY|73|233
15|NIKLASHJALMARSSON|76|232
16|JAKEMUZZIN|70|230
17|ALEXPIETRANGELO|77|229
18|JOHNODUYAODUYA|71|228
19|ALEXGOLIGOSKI|76|226
20|KRISRUSSELL|72|226

Notable players getting more advantageous situations: Doughty, Subban, Suter, Josi, Weber.

And here's where he is in DZ face-off's where his team lost the draw (most disadvantaged)

RK|NAME|Def Faceoff Loss
1|ROMANJOSI|319
2|SHEAWEBER|314
3|T.J.BRODIE|288
4|TYLERMYERS|263
5|DANGIRARDI|262
6|ANDYGREENE|262
7|ERIKKARLSSON| 251
8|ALEXANDEREDLER|245
9|DREWDOUGHTY|244
10|NIKLASHJALMARSSON|244
11|RYANSUTER|244
12|DENNISWIDEMAN|244
13|MARCSTAAL|240
14|KRISRUSSELL|236
15|JUSTINFAULK|235
16|RASMUSRISTOLAINEN|231
17|ALEXGOLIGOSKI|230
18|OLIVEREKMAN-LARSSON |229
19|P.K.SUBBAN|227
20|MARKGIORDANO|227

Notable players with fewer starts in the DZ where his team loses the draw: Subban, Suter, Doughty.

Now, I'm not a big proponent of zone starts. Their effect is generally overexagerated by the masses imo (and the above illustrates nicely why), but if you are going to suggest that zone starts put Karlsson at a significant advantage, I'd suggest face wins/losses put have him at an equal disadvantage.
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
95,744
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Ottawa, ON
Now, I'm not a big proponent of zone starts. Their effect is generally overexagerated by the masses imo (and the above illustrates nicely why), but if you are going to suggest that zone starts put Karlsson at a significant advantage, I'd suggest face wins/losses put have him at an equal disadvantage.

Next to plus/minus, it's the "defensive stat" that makes the least impact IMO in terms of assessing a player.
 

Wondercarrot

By The Power of Canadian Tire Centre
Jul 2, 2002
8,153
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Its one thing to let a guy "off his leash", its another question entirely if he knows how and has the capability to use that freedom appropriately.
Karlsson has pretty much a unique ability to play the style he plays.

Subban is a really good skater and very powerful but he (IMO) doesnt have the quickness/speed to play the same game as Karlsson.
Subban would get caught out of position a lot more frequently and therefore not be nearly as effective a player IMO.
 

topshelf15

Registered User
May 5, 2009
27,993
6,005
Its one thing to let a guy "off his leash", its another question entirely if he knows how and has the capability to use that freedom appropriately.
Karlsson has pretty much a unique ability to play the style he plays.

Subban is a really good skater and very powerful but he (IMO) doesnt have the quickness/speed to play the same game as Karlsson.
Subban would get caught out of position a lot more frequently and therefore not be nearly as effective a player IMO.
This the difference in a nutshell,its mostly due to their size difference.PK can wreck guys down low and provide much more physical play in the defensive as well as the offensive zone. Plus provide very good skill and mobilty in both.EK,s game is all speed and skill .with little to no physical play,his accceleration to top speed gives him the biggest edge in this area over pk :nod:
 

11Goat11

Inside her
Feb 18, 2006
2,109
18
Counter-point: Coach MacLean had the Sens (and Karlsson) playing defense-first for the first half of the season. Coach Cameron came along and gave Karlsson the green light.

PK is probably on a leash because Therrien knows that without it, PK will get lost or bite someone.

:laugh: I laughed harder at this than I should have.

Anyway if you watched PK during his first season or 2 he was an offensive force on the ice, Therrien has all his players wearing shackles. It's frustrating to watch sometimes but I can't argue with the results.
 

Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk

Effortless sexy.
Jul 13, 2006
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In this boring, low scoring era, I think NHL writers will recognize that awards need to be bestowed on players who electrify, dazzle and elevate this potentially beautiful game to soaring levels of awe and spectacle.

Consistency and dependability are fine. Coaches like those traits. We like them in our cars and in our phones. Let those players be there for us when the Karlssons of the world have the night off from making gorgeous music on the ice.

I don't buy this. It's not "D-man that gives the best show", it's "all-around best".
Media get free tickets anyway. EK can still win this year but I have never gone to a Sens game to just see him, he is ours for another five our six year so it's part of the package, so to speak.
 

IceBjoern

Registered User
Feb 24, 2010
2,070
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Stockholm
:laugh: I laughed harder at this than I should have.

Anyway if you watched PK during his first season or 2 he was an offensive force on the ice, Therrien has all his players wearing shackles. It's frustrating to watch sometimes but I can't argue with the results.

pk's 36+38pts in those seasons are regarded as him being an offensive force?
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
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:laugh: I laughed harder at this than I should have.

Anyway if you watched PK during his first season or 2 he was an offensive force on the ice, Therrien has all his players wearing shackles. It's frustrating to watch sometimes but I can't argue with the results.

From a pts/60 (5v5) perspective, this season is by far his best. Now, in my opinion, he's a better offensive player than he was back then, and that's why he's doing it even with less offensive freedom.
 

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,374
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Ottawa
:laugh: I laughed harder at this than I should have.

Anyway if you watched PK during his first season or 2 he was an offensive force on the ice, Therrien has all his players wearing shackles. It's frustrating to watch sometimes but I can't argue with the results.

PK Subban is having a career season in all offensive categories...he's not shackled at all. He's just more judicious about his offensive forays.

IMO, this is Subban's best and most complete season as a player in the NHL. He's just starting to come into his own.

Regarding this Karlsson vs. Subban debate...I said it about 3 or 4 years ago, but that these 2 players would battle it out for a few Norris trophies throughout their career and that's exactly what's happening.

They're both deserving this year, as well as other notables...
 

11Goat11

Inside her
Feb 18, 2006
2,109
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pk's 36+38pts in those seasons are regarded as him being an offensive force?

sorry I did mean to say his style of play, he was still a rookie/sophomore but he was so much more threatening everytime he was on the ice.
 

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,374
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Ottawa
pk's 36+38pts in those seasons are regarded as him being an offensive force?

I didn't get that comment either...Subban is by far having his best offensive season this year (other than the lockout season where he was on pace for more than he'll end up with this year).
 

11Goat11

Inside her
Feb 18, 2006
2,109
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PK Subban is having a career season in all offensive categories...he's not shackled at all. He's just more judicious about his offensive forays.

IMO, this is Subban's best and most complete season as a player in the NHL. He's just starting to come into his own.

Regarding this Karlsson vs. Subban debate...I said it about 3 or 4 years ago, but that these 2 players would battle it out for a few Norris trophies throughout their career and that's exactly what's happening.

They're both deserving this year, as well as other notables...

Agree to disagree on this, while he is playing a more complete game, no way Therrien gives him the offensive freedom EK has.
 

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