Friedman: Noah Hanifin has told Calgary Flames he’d like to go to United States

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Duodenum

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When Burke was in Calgary he always siad that regardless of where the player was from, typically if a player has a modified NTC the teams picked are canadian.
Better lifestyle in America. Hockey players are celebrities in Canada. Can't go out to eat at a restaurant without people staring at you and asking for pictures/autographs. No such problem in America.
 

squashmaple

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Why are you comparing NYC to Calgary? NYC and LA are world class cities obviously, like London or HongKong. I want to know who chooses to live in Columbus or Buffalo vs. Calgary? What is there to do in places like Buffalo? Columbus? Detroit? There are some areas in US cities where you can't walk at night and some areas that feel like favelas in Rio. Comparing NYC or LA to Calgary is not fair to do since not all Americans are playing in those cities.
I'm genuinely cracking up at the idea that boring, suburban, safe Columbus where downtown is a ghost town and I can walk around in my city center neighborhood at night as a 5'3" woman in my thirties is supposedly some unsafe hellscape. My guy, this is a place NHL players retire to, because they live in gated wealthy suburbs where people don't even have sidewalks and a million dollars gets you a hell of a lot more house here with low property taxes compared to just about any other NHL city.
 

Fig

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Correct and I agree with what you are saying.

No for someone making 100k in calif vs 100k in nevada, the difference in taxes is about 7k. So, yes, as an average person, not many people look into that; however, when the base is 5.8 mil vs 6.8 mil a year, that is a big difference. Then again, things are exponentially cheaper in nevada than california, literally across the board (housing, food, education, etc.). Sucks those fuc*ers and their bad driving ability came here...bastards.

Since 2020, in America at least, politics has been the main driver on where people live. Regardless of what side you like best, if you have the means to leave, you are going to a city/state that is what you like best. Many people left california/ny for texas/florida. Honestly, there is big differences in lifestyle between the two comparisons. Don't think I need to really go through them, they should be inferred. Good website to explore this theory/realization: IRS Tax Migration | How Money Walks | How $2 Trillion Moved between the States - A Book By Travis H. Brown
I think if you talk raw dollars, it sounds significant, but rarely on anyone's mind whether they get an extra 5-11% after taxes. People chase opportunities, enjoyment etc. more than the bottom line of money. Most people rarely care if you get an extra 15% in wages if everything else is absolutely more dismal. This is the same for lower income, middle class and rich IMO. This is why the tax thing is IMO such a far thing down the line for reasons of evaluation. There are plenty of millionaires in Calgary who are happy to stick around. There are others who will migrate to where they enjoy things more.

The main high profile guy to leave for tax reasons was Murray Edwards (of all people, the coincidence lol) and it's not like fleeing to the US would have done anything much for him to accomplish that. He left for the UK and then if I'm not mistaken Switzerland. IIRC this also had more to do with the taxing of his assets (as a billionaire) vs the taxing of his yearly income.

I agree that politics is an important reason for leaving a place, but I'd extend that concept to a more broad one like vibe. Cultural, political, familial/friendship etc. vibes are reasons people leave regardless of income opportunity cost. It has an intangible value that some people will consider that transcends a certain value of money, and IMO it transcends money/compensation only to the point where someone deems it helps to resolve some other issue (ie: Lack of consumerism). Vibe wise, Gaudreau (family being 1.5 hours away vs 10), Tkachuk (beach party), Fox (no place like NYC) etc. I think those hit the top of the list like half a dozen times before anything else.

Something shattered this season. I think Sutter was a catalyst for it, but the vibe of the locker room was constantly discussed as amazing in interviews for about 2-3 years until halfway through this season. Things like, "Other teams, you'd have a bunch of guys have dinner together after hours, in Calgary we were constantly booking private rooms to have everyone together." just suddenly vanished. In previous off seasons, some of the players would vacation together in Europe and whatnot with the entire family. That was a vibe worth sticking around for, but it somehow suddenly vanished. I think that's the biggest unreported reason for a sudden discussion of an exodus of players. The 1 year to UFA guys are the biggest story, but I think expiring UFA of this season is another part of that vibe and core of tight knit guys deciding on a new non-Calgary family vibe chapter. That's dudes like Lucic and Lewis and their families. IMO I wouldn't blame them and IMO it makes more sense to me than "taxes".

Hanifin, Toffoli, Lindholm, Backlund etc. ain't leaving because of taxes and Calgary isn't having issues getting guys here because of taxes. It's a laundry list of items well before that. Calgary is in for a few painful years, but they'll be fine after that.


And I want to clear something up. Unique for Calgary, if we have to fire sale and go full rebuild, the majority of our fanbase will be elated, not disappointed. Typically many other teams have significantly more disappointment for going rebuild. Lots of Flames fans have been hoping for a proper rebuild vs retools/rushed rebuilds since around 2014. The Saddledome sold out of tickets for a chance to watch Bedard play one of his last games. The option of watching all of the Hitmen, Heat and Flames at the Dome has been nothing but awesome.

Ownership mandate has refused proper rebuilds for so many decades, that it's something we desire but assume we'll never get. None of the other Canadian teams have experienced this for as long as Calgary and just sat on the wheel of mediocrity. Flames fans will welcome a rebuild. It's ownership that's refusing. All these players wanting out of Calgary is bittersweet. We understand and are happy not because we dislike the players, but because there's a very obvious silver lining that isn't awful either.
 

Mr Positive

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nah, we got shit on already from the Pronger fiasco back in the day, then the Heatley fiasco

we've taken our fair share of lumps over the years
Drai and McDavid could make that even worse though. As an Oiler fan I'm not going to pile on the Flames

I don't think those two are itching to jump ship though. Imo it's all about how well Holland gives a supporting cast and gives them real success.

I suppose this may be a litmus test for how big this anti Canada factor is vs team factors. If the team is a real contender (and that's a big IF even) but McDavid and/or Drai still go, then it's for real. As for the Flames, the team has been bad so that's the best explanation. Hanifin saying it's a USA thing might be just a nice way to say it
 

Bond

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And I want to clear something up. Unique for Calgary, if we have to fire sale and go full rebuild, the majority of our fanbase will be elated, not disappointed. Typically many other teams have significantly more disappointment for going rebuild. Lots of Flames fans have been hoping for a proper rebuild vs retools/rushed rebuilds since around 2014.
That might be true of the hardcore fans who post on these forums but as a whole attendance will tank during a rebuild. It is an expensive night out to watch a team lose games.
 
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Roomba With a Bauer

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I'm genuinely cracking up at the idea that boring, suburban, safe Columbus where downtown is a ghost town and I can walk around in my city center neighborhood at night as a 5'3" woman in my thirties is supposedly some unsafe hellscape. My guy, this is a place NHL players retire to, because they live in gated wealthy suburbs where people don't even have sidewalks and a million dollars gets you a hell of a lot more house here with low property taxes compared to just about any other NHL city.
When you are a multimillionaire, you can make sure that everywhere you go is safe and livable. You can buy whatever entertainment you need
Even players on NHL minimum contracts are making enough to live in gated communities and own multiple very, very nice houses.

Back in the 90s/2000s, the Red Wings all lived in enclaves in Bloomfield Hills, Novi, and areas like that with very active and very safe night lives.
 
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Bond

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I don't think those two are itching to jump ship though. Imo it's all about how well Holland gives a supporting cast and gives them real success.
If the Oilers keep making progress then I think they'll stay. If Holland doesn't manage to fix the defense and goaltending and they sputter out in the second/third round again then they walk. Edmonton and Calgary have to be competitive
 

NotOpie

"Puck don't lie"
Jun 12, 2006
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Regarding taxes....most seem to forget that players get paid under 32 different tax structures. For 41 of those games, it's the home team's taxes that matter. But when they play in Florida, Tennessee, Nevada, Texas, etc. the get taxed at that state's tax rate. The difference isn't nearly as big as some make it out to be.
 

Fig

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That might be true of the hardcore fans who post on these forums but as a whole attendance will tank during a rebuild. It is an expensive night out to watch a team lose games.
Depends how CSEC navigates it. Their Wranglers season ticket offering was pretty popular. If they combine Flames packages with more Hitmen and Wrangler stuff and focus on selling more merchandise + concessions for those other games, I think they could continue to break even or make more during a rebuild period.

I think it'd be pretty sweet to be able to watch both Flames and Wranglers for nearly the same season ticket price for the next few years and watch these young guys grow/develop. It'd be a pretty unique experience as a casual to hardcore fan of hockey. Mentorship and being able to stay with friends and not move away when you graduate would also be unique.

It'd also be an awesome environment to develop the multicultural experience of hockey. Get more newcomers to watch the Hitmen and Wranglers and if they develop a love for the game, they'll recognize more players as they migrate upwards towards NHL.

This strategy of trying to lure more newcomers to enjoying hockey has been hinted heavily for the last few years IIRC, so I'm not just pulling this out of nowhere. The hockey broadcasts in Punjabi for instance I believe have been quite welcomed. This is just an extension of it.

If warm up jerseys, pride or otherwise are a distraction, then if there's no restrictions in AHL or WHL, maybe that's where that ends up as well. I believe Prokop being one of the first to openly state his preferences and IIRC, the Hitmen had a pink jersey for Cancer or something... it could be a part of other things that the CSEC could really do as part of a bigger shift in making it a unique place to be as an NHLer.
 

HighLifeMan

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Feb 26, 2009
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Meh

Fox only ever wanted to go to the Rangers - he turned down Carolina as well

Both Gaudreau & Tkachuk were willing to sign longterm at various points; Flames' inability to understand how the cap works and overall cheapness screwed it up

I don't particularly buy that. Tkachuk was probably willing to sign a 5 or 6 year deal as opposed to a three year deal at a much higher number, but his intention was always to leave Calgary. The common factor here is these players do not want to play in Canada longer than they have to.

Actions speak louder than words.
 

Mickey the mouse

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Jun 30, 2013
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Regarding taxes....most seem to forget that players get paid under 32 different tax structures. For 41 of those games, it's the home team's taxes that matter. But when they play in Florida, Tennessee, Nevada, Texas, etc. the get taxed at that state's tax rate. The difference isn't nearly as big as some make it out to be.
You are TOTALLY wrong.

State / city income tax

For every 1 million in NY, LA, ANA, SJ = 110-130k

For every 1 million in Vegas, Dal, Nash, TB, Fla, ( Seattle and Colo ?? ) = ZERO

Cut those #'s in half because of the 41 home/away games.

A lot of money and I don't care how much you have or made

Look at Eichel's contract.

10 million = 5-600k in 1st tier of cities and states compared to ZERO in the 2nd tier of states.

Also, toss all of Canada in with the 1st tier

500k is a TON of CASH to save
 

Some Other Flame

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I don't particularly buy that. Tkachuk was probably willing to sign a 5 or 6 year deal as opposed to a three year deal at a much higher number, but his intention was always to leave Calgary. The common factor here is these players do not want to play in Canada longer than they have to.

Actions speak louder than words.
Based on what exactly?

He wanted to sign a longterm deal coming out of his ELC but Treliving's gross incompetence lead to a bridge deal instead. Fast forward to last year where Gaudreau walked, also because of Treliving's gross incompetence in failing to get him signed the previous summer when he was willing. So is it really a surprise or that farfetched that Tkachuk saw the writing on the wall and opted to leave instead of sticking around with a club that just lost it's best player for nothing?

The actual common factor is gross managerial incompetence.

Otherwise, why did Gaudreau sign for 6 years coming out of his ELC instead of immediately demanding a trade? Hell, why did he sign with Calgary at all when he could have waited a single extra year and picked his favorite American spot? Likewise, why did Tkachuk after his ELC ended, not immediately demand a trade too? You're right actions do speak louder than words - and the actions of two premier American talents both signing and extending in Calgary shows that.

This whole American thing is a sad copout. Like both Lindholm and Backlund aren't keen on re-signing; does Canada now have a Swedish problem? It's a joke.

Honestly, this whole angle is just a super easy and convenient scapegoat for fans unable and unwilling to accept that their favoured franchises are just poorly managed.
 

StreetHawk

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I don't particularly buy that. Tkachuk was probably willing to sign a 5 or 6 year deal as opposed to a three year deal at a much higher number, but his intention was always to leave Calgary. The common factor here is these players do not want to play in Canada longer than they have to.

Actions speak louder than words.
"Have to" would only be their RFA years, which Gaudreau also included a couple of UFA years when he signed. Same with Hanifan. If Calgary could have gotten MT for 6 years at $8.5 mill or whatever for those 6 vs the 3 for $7 mill AAV they should have found a way to do it. They would still have to make a call this summer depending on what their 2024 class of UFAs wanted to do.
 

blankall

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He is American and wants to play in America. The covid protocols in Canada put a sour taste in a lot of players mouths.

I got the impression that Tkachuk and Gaudreau, specifically, were quite fed up with the Covid protocols. Both definitely wanted to see their family and friends more, and Tkachuk specifically chose states without strict Covid laws for his trade list.

As a Canadian who ended up being turned away from their own border, after the people who performed my PCR test (and wouldn't accept the other tests), which could only be done on week days unless you wanted to pay about $400 USD, I can say that Canada's border policy was a gong show.

I don't know how a government could turn back their own citizens over 1.5 years after the epidemic started.

It's just one of those things. It's a perfect storm that led the Flames to where they are now. Without Covid it doesn't happen. Without Gaudreau having a light off years 2 years before his contract was up, it doesn't happen. With Markstrom crapping the bed in the playoffs, it doesn't happen, etc....
 
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YP44

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Jan 30, 2012
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Better lifestyle in America. Hockey players are celebrities in Canada. Can't go out to eat at a restaurant without people staring at you and asking for pictures/autographs. No such problem in America.
think it definitely play into it. Less pressure, better work life balance. same things I know i look for.
 

Bobby9

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Feb 10, 2019
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Don’t blame him. If I could get a green card I would leave Canada too. Country is going to hell
 

thedjpd

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1 for 1 with Philly for Sanheim.

Sanheim likes Calgary - long term deal through his prime, similar caliber even if Hanifin is a bit better but locked in contract wise.

Philly just saves cap, and tries to garner an asset back for him later this year.

Assuming, of course, Calgary still plans a retool and not rebuild.
 

Fig

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Based on what exactly?

He wanted to sign a longterm deal coming out of his ELC but Treliving's gross incompetence lead to a bridge deal instead. Fast forward to last year where Gaudreau walked, also because of Treliving's gross incompetence in failing to get him signed the previous summer when he was willing. So is it really a surprise or that farfetched that Tkachuk saw the writing on the wall and opted to leave instead of sticking around with a club that just lost it's best player for nothing?

The actual common factor is gross managerial incompetence.

Otherwise, why did Gaudreau sign for 6 years coming out of his ELC instead of immediately demanding a trade? Hell, why did he sign with Calgary at all when he could have waited a single extra year and picked his favorite American spot? Likewise, why did Tkachuk after his ELC ended, not immediately demand a trade too? You're right actions do speak louder than words - and the actions of two premier American talents both signing and extending in Calgary shows that.

This whole American thing is a sad copout. Like both Lindholm and Backlund aren't keen on re-signing; does Canada now have a Swedish problem? It's a joke.

Honestly, this whole angle is just a super easy and convenient scapegoat for fans unable and unwilling to accept that their favoured franchises are just poorly managed.

I think the truth was in the middle. Prior to being drafted, he was a huge proponent of hockey USA and excited for hockey improving in certain markets. He posted his excitement about the fact a lot of top first rounders were from certain parts of the USA IIRC. I do believe MT would have left Calgary eventually, but probably originally envisioned doing so in his late 20s or early 30s. The bridge deal and Covid accelerated his plans and he left Calgary in his early/mid 20s which was earlier than intended.

Management is a common factor, but you can't ignore the concept of pandemic fatigue in wanting to be closer to friends and family for Tkachuk and Gaudreau. Gaudreau is 1.5 hours away from his family in Philly. Previously his family was more like 10 hours away door to door or something nuts like that (not just flight, but travel, security, immigration, waiting etc. even for a private jet).

Hanifin might have something like this as well. We just don't know what it is. It might not be purely management or ownership, it's possible it's just the path of least resistance at this point for him.
 

KovalchukFistPump

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Dec 24, 2008
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South Alberta is just basically extended Montana, right?

Some of our craziest crazies live in Montana.......we gotta spread that wealth out........
It's actually kinda interesting how Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming are really empty but go up north and you have semi-big cities in Calgary and Edmonton. I guess it's due to the oil?

stipulation that he would sign there. he was born there and his dad played there.
Michael Nylander was traded from Calgary in 1999, when William was 2 years old.
 
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Fig

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It's actually kinda interesting how Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming are really empty but go up north and you have semi-big cities in Calgary and Edmonton. I guess it's due to the oil?

Oil and logistics. Both Calgary and Edmonton deal with the oil, Edmonton more the extraction, Calgary the paperwork, HQ and international aspect of it. Calgary is also positioned as the logistics hub for lots of deliveries for central Canada and the midwest. They have a few warehouses for places like Amazon and Target before Target exited Canada etc.

Saskatchewan is probably similar in nature to Montana, Idaho and Wyoming. The entire province has a population of less than Calgary's population at about 1.2 million. Saskatchewan has a lot of sweet gas and potash fueling their economy. I honestly don't know what fuels Montana, Idaho and Wyoming's economy and I've often wondered why they're separate sparse states instead of a bigger one like California.
 
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