No longterm future for American teams in so-called non hockey markets! (endorsements)

[snakepliskin]

Sorry, but when I am watching my team play in Carolina against the Hurricanes, and they announce a crowd of 8,000 that means less than half. I am not an ex whaler fan, and though I liked the Jets, they were not my team either, although I am not sure why the Jets are part of this comment, they went to Phoenix.

i may be proven wrong on this but i do not recall any attendance figures that low although we may have been barely less than 10g on a weeknite game-i go to around 20games a year and even during our rebuild we are usualyl between 12 to 15 k -the yr after our cup run we averaged over 15k but we made the mistake of overpaying guys the following yr shooting our payroll to over 40 mill-it has taken a couple of down years (plus lockout) to re-organize and we have a pretty good young nucleus to build on now. i have no idea what is going to happen FA wise ar how much resentment will be held by the fans toward all the teams but with players screaming for millions in salary in a business where revenues have taken a significant hit contracting teams and fan bases is not the answer just unless you really want to go back to the good old days of a regionalized sport. and what do you think the avg salary would be then?

 

[gobolt7]

My whole argument when starting this thread was to say that certain teams will lose their top end talent when they can get the same money and have better opportunities for endorsement deals elsewhere. How anyone can say "do you even watch hockey?" is ignorant to put it mildly. If you don't agree with what I say, then back it up with some facts. I never said teams can't draw crowds, I said that under the new look CBA it will be difficult to keep your stars, and if that is the case on an ongoing basis, those teams will not be around.

For my own good, I will refrain from touching the Tampa comments.

You know, I would think that if everything were equal, I would go to the team that has the best chance at winning a cup as opposed to a city with no chance at a cup just for endorsement oppertunities. If you win, the endorsements will come regardless of where you are.

 

[Buffaloed]

I wouldn't bet on league revenues dropping but if they did I'm sure the player would be paid whatever his contract originally was signed for. The only issue would be that the team might have to cut someone to fit that player under the cap.

I tend to agree with this assessment, that the NHL is basing its cap on an overly optimistic revenue projection.

However, he said that the NHL might be miscalculating if it bases its $37-million salary cap, $24-million payroll minimum and other provisions on projected revenues of $1.8 billion. The league had revenues of $2.1 billion in 2002-03 but has since lost its TV deal with ABC/ESPN and is likely to lose sponsors because of the lockout imposed by Commissioner Gary Bettman last Sept. 15.

"The idea of $1.8 billion seems ambitious," Swangard said. "Is it impossible? No. It's not a number that you laugh at. But you sort of worry that it's going to be ambitious. The silver lining is teams will have the ability to tie personnel expenditures to whatever that number will be….
http://www.latimes.com/sports/hocke...ll=la-headlines-sports-nhl&ctrack=1&cset=true

If revenues don't meet that projection players won't be paid what they signed for. Players are only guaranteed 85% of their salaries.
From the same article:

players will place 15% of their salary each season into an escrow account until league revenues are calculated. If spending on salaries exceeds 54%, the difference will be paid to the teams; if it's less than 54%, the money will go back to players.

This doesn't relate to the original small/large market argument as it affects all players equally across the board. One of the largest recent endorsement deals is the $90 million deal LeBron James signed with Nike. Cleveland's a nice city, despite the ribbing it takes, but it's not a market comparable to NYC, LA, Chicago, etc.. Although they shoot some hoops there, the Cleveland doesn't come to mind when someone says basketball. The value of endorsement deals depends on the popularity of the sport. If a sport is really popular they'll get huge endorsement deals no matter what city they play in. Tiger Wood and Venus Williams don't represent any city. It hasn't hurt their endorsements.

 

[Resolute]

On the original topic, I am curious, just how many endorsement dollars are out there for the taking?

If the Blue Jackets have $5 million in cap space for Nash, while the Maple Leafs only have $2 million, do you actually believe that there is over $3 million in endorsement deals out there for Nash in Toronto that arent available in Columbus?

 

[AG9NK35DT8*]

Although this new CBA deal, whenever it truly becomes public information, will address the needs of many small market clubs, and put them on somewhat of an equal footing with the big spenders, it is merely a band-aid solution as far as keeping their stars go.

Case in point, Columbus with Nash. Under this new agreement, Nash will be capped at some point with how much the Blue Jackets can pay him. Therefore Nash will have to look at how much he can make in endorsement deals to supplement his income. The truth is Columbus is now and always will be a lesser light in the world of hockey, no disrespect intended, and therefore Nash will undoubtedly look at true hockey markets to showcase his talent. This will hit many franchises write between the eyes.

Florida, Anaheim, Tampa Bay, Nashville, Atlanta, Washington, etc... The long term success looks grim for these and even others in the NHL. Once the fans see that, their beloved team is nothing more than a feeder system, to the more popular teams in hockey markets, they will stop supporting them. So, as many people were hoping when this whole lockout started, (that the NHL would fold 6,8 or even 10 franchises to help the game), the way the players have had their proverbial asses handed to them in these so called negotiations, looks like the NHL may have a lot fewer teams in the not to distant future.

Where do all your so called " FACTS" come from? cause most of what you wrote imo is not true at all.

 

[Hasbro]

Does anyone have any doubts the 28 year old Crosby will flee to Montreal his Fav team the earliest chance he gets. ??

Yep, we all know he's going to become a Leaf

 

[SJeasy]

It is interesting to note the people who are talking about additional income through endorsements omitting Los Angeles as a venue. It seems that when you look at other sports, NY and LA give largest opportunities to top flight athletic talent in terms of endorsement income. I also note that if the athlete is truly at the top, the market that they play in doesn't matter (e.g. Favre in Green bay, Manning in Indy).

 

[gobolt7]

Just out of curiosity, what makes anyone think that an NHL player is going to get any major sports endorsements after sitting out a year? Expecially in an NFL city.

 

[I in the Eye]

But the clincher might be UFA .. Its dropping to 27-28 according to the latest TSN report .. Many players are just hitting their primes now ..

All things being equal will a Nash stay in Columbus or a Heatley in Atlanta or Bouwmeeter in Florida forever or will the bright lights of big cities lure them away, to either play closer to friends and Family or as you pointed out celebrity status and possible $$$ gains outside of Hockey ..

Does anyone have any doubts the 28 year old Crosby will flee to Montreal his Fav team the earliest chance he gets. ??

I've read a research report somewhere that suggests regardless of professional sport and economic environment, when given the opportunity to choose where to play (via free agency), players on small market teams are much more likely to go to big market teams - than visa versa...

The NHL (under the old CBA) tends to follow this, IMO... I guess we'll see in the coming years how it plays out under the new CBA... I don't follow the NFL (widely regarded as the closest economic environment to the reported new NHL one)... Does anyone have any thoughts or impressions regarding free agent NFL players from small market teams going to big market teams - rather than visa versa? Which is more likely to occur under this hard cap environment?

In specific instances where players from big markets went to small markets (in the NFL), was it a family-related decision (hometown or wife's hometown), a $-related decision (more cap room to pay more $), or a winning-related decision (greater chance to win) - or a combination thereof?

 

[eaton28]

you people are all ignorant, the guy is saying that under the new system those team will not survive simply because the fan base wont allow them to because they won't have enough money to pay the star players. he is not saying they have no fanbase and average less then 10,000 people regularly. and winning the cup doesnt mean you have a huge fanbase of a big city canadian team like toronto, it DOES mean you have a GM and Head Coach that can put a team together.

IMO Tampa will not be in as much trouble as say Carolina, Florida ect. but they will not be a powerhouse by any means.

 

[McDonald19]

Case in point, Columbus with Nash. Under this new agreement, Nash will be capped at some point with how much the Blue Jackets can pay him. Therefore Nash will have to look at how much he can make in endorsement deals to supplement his income. The truth is Columbus is now and always will be a lesser light in the world of hockey, no disrespect intended, and therefore Nash will undoubtedly look at true hockey markets to showcase his talent. This will hit many franchises write between the eyes.

Nash will still earn 4 or 5 million a year in Columbus at some point...isnt that enough??

 

[NHLFanSince2020]

you people are all ignorant, the guy is saying that under the new system those team will not survive simply because the fan base wont allow them to because they won't have enough money to pay the star players.

Let's all bow down to the eaton28, he who among us is not ignorant.

He who is fully aware that under the old CBA, teams who didn't have enough money to pay star players were magically able to afford them but under the new CBA, the magic will be gone and they will not be able to afford them.

Thanks for clueing us all in to wisdom, oh great eaton28.

 

[gobolt7]

and winning the cup doesnt mean you have a huge fanbase of a big city canadian team like toronto, it DOES mean you have a GM and Head Coach that can put a team together.

IMO Tampa will not be in as much trouble as say Carolina, Florida ect. but they will not be a powerhouse by any means.

Winning a cup creates big fan bases, and IMO, that is why Tampa was the biggest loser in this lockout.

Back on topic, can someone please tell me how many hockey players had multi million dollar endorsement deals in big cities in the last year played?

 

[snakepliskin]

if the new cba has a cap and improved revenue sharing should'nt it be easier for the smaller market teams to survive and compete?

 

[FlyersFan10*]

The new CBA will fix the "feeder system" that Edmonton, Buffalo, Pittsburgh and many others have become.

Not really. They're just being funded now by the top 10 revenue generating teams in the league. There's no incentive for them to improve because they're always going to be inline for a huge handout from the top revenue generating teams. Everyone talks about a level playing field, but I'm willing to bet that the teams that had previously sucked will still suck.

 

[Mess]

I've read a research report somewhere that suggests regardless of professional sport and economic environment, when given the opportunity to choose where to play (via free agency), players on small market teams are much more likely to go to big market teams - than visa versa...

The NHL (under the old CBA) tends to follow this, IMO... I guess we'll see in the coming years how it plays out under the new CBA... I don't follow the NFL (widely regarded as the closest economic environment to the reported new NHL one)... Does anyone have any thoughts or impressions regarding free agent NFL players from small market teams going to big market teams - rather than visa versa? Which is more likely to occur under this hard cap environment?

In specific instances where players from big markets went to small markets (in the NFL), was it a family-related decision (hometown or wife's hometown), a $-related decision (more cap room to pay more $), or a winning-related decision (greater chance to win) - or a combination thereof?

The first paragraph doesn't surprise me at all.

In regards to NHL though you do have a different market type .. NFL football is loved in every US State and so for money for the player it makes markets less of an importance .. Brett Favre is just a popular in Green Bay then he would be if he played in NY maybe even more ..

I don't NHL could make that claim .. Nationality may play a part and the sport at minor levels .. Most of the teams 24 of 30 appear in the US yet for its size I would bet that the percentage of its players are Canadian and European .. So basically you are importing your talent ..

Hockey is expensive .. Arena cost big money to build and keep cool and then equipment does as well when the big 3 sports in the US only need a field or school yard and a ball to play .. So popularity of a sport not played as a kid effects what people follow later in life and so non-traditional markets will always be up against that .. So as far as players go .. this effects decisions perhaps when they are free to chose and then the big cities ..Climate as well lots of kids grew up playing hockey on frozen ponds and back yard rinks as kids to Hockey dads may want similar for their kids .. You simply can't do that in Phoenix, or Florida or Nashville etc ..

What about job security .. Small markets will always have that "will I make it or not" feel and often $$$ determines if they can afford to keep a player long term or if he has out grown this market and thus replacing him with 2 contributing players for the money may make the team itself more competitive .. Hockey players know there is not fear of that in big markets like NY and Philly and Toronto etc ..

 

[bcrt2000]

columbus is a strong franchise

nashville and atlanta aren't that bad either

 

[jacketracket*]

Case in point, Columbus with Nash. Under this new agreement, Nash will be capped at some point with how much the Blue Jackets can pay him. Therefore Nash will have to look at how much he can make in endorsement deals to supplement his income. The truth is Columbus is now and always will be a lesser light in the world of hockey, no disrespect intended, and therefore Nash will undoubtedly look at true hockey markets to showcase his talent. This will hit many franchises write between the eyes.

to distant future.

Columbus is solidly a second-tier market, in terms of the advertising dollar ... and there aren't that many top-tier NHL markets.

The CBJ are also the only "Big 4" team in central Ohio (the US' 15th-largest television market). The only reason you've used Columbus as an example is because you personally know little about the city.

 

[Buffaloed]

Back on topic, can someone please tell me how many hockey players had multi million dollar endorsement deals in big cities in the last year played?

Sure, Hasek made well over $1 million in endorsement money from Louisville during his last season, and the 2 prior ones, in that huge megalopolis of Buffalo. He made more in endorsements than Roy, Cujo, Richter, or any of the other "name" goalies in big cities. There is some truth that bigger endorsement money can be made in bigger cities. Bauer's endorsement contracts take that into account and if a player moves from a city on their A list to one on their C list he'll take a pay cut. But in the case of superstars, the cream rises to the top, and they'll get the big endorsement bucks no matter where they play.

 

[Puckhead]

Where do all your so called " FACTS" come from? cause most of what you wrote imo is not true at all.

On a recent sports radio show Barry Melrose basically said that if the powers that be had their way, they would have the hockey saviour Sidney Crosby go to the Rangers. So, not that I think that Melrose is worth is salt as an analyst, but he is involved with hockey and no doubt has some insight into the goings on behind the scenes. Why then would it make sense for the Rangers to get Crosby...Because they are the biggest media market, hockey although way down on the popularity scale is still a presence there, and for exposure purposes what better place could he go to, in helping the league become recognized again? Maybe if he went to Nashville he would have the same type exposure....I don't think so.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

I was under the impression that hockey was doing great in Columbus. Their attendance figures sure don't suggest a problem of any sort.

if you say so .....

ok, so one more team that didnt require a scorched earth shutdown of the NHL is CLB.

dr

 

[Puckhead]

Columbus is solidly a second-tier market, in terms of the advertising dollar ... and there aren't that many top-tier NHL markets.

The CBJ are also the only "Big 4" team in central Ohio (the US' 15th-largest television market). The only reason you've used Columbus as an example is because you personally know little about the city.

That is what I love most about these boards, you make a statement and then you are taken to task for something that is totally off base. I never said I knew anything about the city of Columbus. I simply stated that just because you have an NHL franchise does not make you a viable hockey market. The same can be said about selling out 3/4 of your building. My point is, and you can battle me on this forever, that hockey is not a house hold word in 95% of the US, and it never will be. I can agree with an earlier poster, who said that winning builds a fan base, and that is true for every market of every sport, but in hockey, it builds a false fan base. Fans jump on and off the bandwagon all the time, but the test is how the fans do when the team falters. It is true that Tampa Bay will suffer a lot because of the damage of the lockout, but I don't think any of you who reside in the States can really say that hockey is missed south of the border. I realize that there are some hockey mad cities, and that there are hardcore fans of every team in the league, but on a grand scale, it just doesn't work and while it may be a difficult pill to swallow, the numbers don't lie. To add insult to injury, ESPN pulls the plug on its limited TV deal, so I'm sure that boads well for building the sport in the States aswell.

 

[Puckhead]

Sure, Hasek made well over $1 million in endorsement money from Louisville during his last season, and the 2 prior ones, in that huge megalopolis of Buffalo. He made more in endorsements than Roy, Cujo, Richter, or any of the other "name" goalies in big cities. There is some truth that bigger endorsement money can be made in bigger cities. Bauer's endorsement contracts take that into account and if a player moves from a city on their A list to one on their C list he'll take a pay cut. But in the case of superstars, the cream rises to the top, and they'll get the big endorsement bucks no matter where they play.

I appreciate your points, they are well made. I never implied that it would be impossible, but simply more likely for teams where the local budgets are to watered down to compete. If hockey is the 5th rated sport in Florida, then how can Roberto Luongo expect to make the same sort of endorsement deals as the players of the more followed, more recognized sports?

It is a simple argument whereby all things being equal if a player can move from one team to another with the same chance of winning and making the same salary, but in his first team hockey was the fourth major sport, and on the new team hockey is the major sport, it stands to reason that they would go where they can make more money. Make no mistake it will almost always be about the money, especially now that they had to lose a year, and take such a hit to the wallet. You ask me if $3 Million is a lot of money, and I say damn right it is, but to a player who was making $4.5 Million he is lookin at it a little differently don't you think? He is trying to figure out a way to make that money back if he can. Pro athelete careers are only so long and with sports being such a business, you have to grab all you can, when you can. I believe that if they can go somewhere where they can make more money and still have a good chance to win, they will take that in a heartbeat.

 

[Street Hawk]

Leetch & Yzerman

I appreciate your points, they are well made. I never implied that it would be impossible, but simply more likely for teams where the local budgets are to watered down to compete. If hockey is the 5th rated sport in Florida, then how can Roberto Luongo expect to make the same sort of endorsement deals as the players of the more followed, more recognized sports?

It is a simple argument whereby all things being equal if a player can move from one team to another with the same chance of winning and making the same salary, but in his first team hockey was the fourth major sport, and on the new team hockey is the major sport, it stands to reason that they would go where they can make more money. Make no mistake it will almost always be about the money, especially now that they had to lose a year, and take such a hit to the wallet. You ask me if $3 Million is a lot of money, and I say damn right it is, but to a player who was making $4.5 Million he is lookin at it a little differently don't you think? He is trying to figure out a way to make that money back if he can. Pro athelete careers are only so long and with sports being such a business, you have to grab all you can, when you can. I believe that if they can go somewhere where they can make more money and still have a good chance to win, they will take that in a heartbeat.

Detroit and New York are 2 of the biggest markets for hockey, but does anyone here know how much Steve Yzerman and Brian Leetch made off endorsements over their careers?

I mean, in the case of Yzerman, you have a guy who's played 20 years with the Wings, won 3 cups and is a future hall of famer. But, his soft spoken personality probably didn't net him too many deals.

As for Leetch, in his prime in the 90's he won a cup with the Rangers, was MVP of that Cup team, won the Norris as best dman a number of times, and is American, couldn't get much better than that for US endorsement deals? So, did Leetch score big in endorsements? Leetch probably got hurt by missing the playoffs the past 6 years with the Rangers.

Did Cujo, in his 4 years with the Leafs make major endorsement money? What was Sundin?

Fedorov had a Nike deal for a while, but his production dropped off so I don't think he got used that much.

Lindros in his best days with Philly?

Seriously, is there a lot of endorsement money for hockey players?

 

[arrbez]

On the original topic, I am curious, just how many endorsement dollars are out there for the taking?

If the Blue Jackets have $5 million in cap space for Nash, while the Maple Leafs only have $2 million, do you actually believe that there is over $3 million in endorsement deals out there for Nash in Toronto that arent available in Columbus?

Toronto has like 5x more people than Columbus and is the largest media and economic centre in Canada. Bringing an exciting home-grown superstar like Nash into Toronto would just be a license to print money. $3 million is an awful lot for a hockey player to make in endorsements, but I'm sure he could make significantly more in T.O. than in Columbus